Speakers don't matter

[itschris]

I've found that most decent speakers sound... well... decent. There are some speakers that have a specific sound or nuance to them that you either like or dislike. Kipsh is one of those for me. There's just something about that big horn that makes the tones sound harsh. Infinity and Martin Logan are two others that come to mind that just have more of a signature style sound. Gimme Def Techs, Axiom, B&W, M&K, Dynaudio, and a host of others and I doubt i'd throw any of them out of bed.

 

[WmAx]

I agree completely.

I think that you can do quite well for $3,000. Maybe not the best of the best, but at least 90% of the way there.

Fred

If you are willing to go used, you can get 'best of the best', or at least really close to it, if you are a real bargain hunter. B&W 801 Matrix II or III from the late 80's is such a beast. A dead neutral, super low resonance full range speaker system with low distortion. Very good off axis response linearity as well. Combine this unusually neutral system with a high precision DSP equalizer and you can achieve just about any sound signature you so desire.

-Chris

 

[jliedeka]

I've found that most decent speakers sound... well... decent. There are some speakers that have a specific sound or nuance to them that you either like or dislike. Kipsh is one of those for me. There's just something about that big horn that makes the tones sound harsh. Infinity and Martin Logan are two others that come to mind that just have more of a signature style sound. Gimme Def Techs, Axiom, B&W, M&K, Dynaudio, and a host of others and I doubt i'd throw any of them out of bed.

I haven't listened to any new Klipsch speakers but my horns don't sound harsh. They used a silk dome tweeter in mine while the newer ones use metal. I don't know if that makes a huge difference.

Jim

 

[jliedeka]

If you are willing to go used, you can get 'best of the best', or at least really close to it, if you are a real bargain hunter. B&W 801 Matrix II or III from the late 80's is such a beast. A dead neutral, super low resonance full range speaker system with low distortion. Very good off axis response linearity as well. Combine this unusually neutral system with a high precision DSP equalizer and you can achieve just about any sound signature you so desire.

-Chris

I just blew a bunch of money on a receiver and a sub so I won't be buying any speakers until fall probably. I am keeping an eye on Audiogon and my local Craigslist. I'd be willing to take a chance on some decent used speakers I haven't heard because I probably wouldn't lose much if I had to turn around and sell them.

One thing I'm concerned about is being able to properly drive higher end speakers with my receiver. I don't need a lot of watts in my small room but I have no experience with inefficient speakers. I'd really like to try out some of the Totem monitors like Model Ones or Rainmakers. I would also be interested in some Quad L series monitors but they tend not to last too long on Audiogon. I saw a listing for some 12Ls from today that was already marked sold.

Jim

 

[croseiv]

I'd say it depends on the initial quality of the speaker, and then the room acoustics/positioning. If the speaker is crap, the acoustics don't matter at all. If the speaker is good but room acoustics are poor, then postion and treatments can help tame a bad room. Of course, really poor initial placement will squelch even the finest speaker.

 

[ivseenbetter]

I had some old crap speakers in my living room. They seemed to sound ok to me. Then I upgraded to some decent speakers. I placed them in the same place as the old speakers and they sounded tons better. In this situation there was no change to my room acoustics. The difference was so big that my wife, who can't stand anything I do with this stuff, even commented on it without my asking. To me, that tells me that the speakers have a huge impact on sound quality. More so than acoustics.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I had some old crap speakers in my living room. They seemed to sound ok to me. Then I upgraded to some decent speakers. I placed them in the same place as the old speakers and they sounded tons better. In this situation there was no change to my room acoustics. The difference was so big that my wife, who can't stand anything I do with this stuff, even commented on it without my asking. To me, that tells me that the speakers have a huge impact on sound quality. More so than acoustics.

Agreed 100% Speakers make a huge difference in my room. Also, treatments don't make much difference because it is pretty decent acoustically to begin with (drywall and carpet.)

 

[trnqk7]

I had always thought my old DIY speakers sounded pretty good but upgraded with the wife's permission (gotta take it when you get it!) I took my DIY speaker into the shop where I was demoing my current speakers (see sig) and they sounded terrible. The DIY speakers sounded absolutely terrible compared to the way they did at my house. The demo was done in a treated theater room, the very one I thought my new Dali's sounded so great in.

With the Dali's now in place, they don't sound quite as good at home as they did in the treated room, although they do sound better than the old DIY speakers did at home.

I just find it curious that the DIY speakers sounded ok/pretty good in an untreated room and terrible in a treated room....

 

[gmichael]

An audio chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. No matter how much you spend on a few of the links, it only takes one to break the whole chain. Balance is the key. You need your speakers, electronics, wires and room acoustics to be at about the same level. You could have the best of any three of these, but if you neglect just one of them, then your system will be as bad as that one link.

 

[fmw]

If someone offered you $5,000 to spend on either Room Acoustics or Speakers (only ONE choice), would you pick speakers or room acoustics?

QUOTE]

Silly question but if you are willing to send me 5 grand I just want you to know that not only do I agree with you 100% but I have always agreed with you. You look good too. Have you been working out?

Speakers because there isn't a lot you can do about room acoustics if the dimensions of the room are bad or if the room doesn't allow for good placement. There is no question that room acoustics matter more than speakers. However, speakers can be upgraded where room acoustics cannot always be upgraded. I think the confusion in this thread is that people think speakers are more important that room treatments and indeed they are. However, they aren't more important than room acoustics - most of which results from room size and dimensions and speaker placement - not treatments.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Speakers because there isn't a lot you can do about room acoustics if the dimensions of the room are bad or if the room doesn't allow for good placement. There is no question that room acoustics matter more than speakers. However, speakers can be upgraded where room acoustics cannot always be upgraded. I think the confusion in this thread is that people think speakers are more important that room treatments and indeed they are. However, they aren't more important than room acoustics - most of which results from room size and dimensions and speaker placement - not treatments.

Well put. I have been in rooms where treatments would make a big difference (lots of brick, eg.), but in many rooms they will not.

 

[markw]

While not diminishing the importance of room treatments and speaker placement, saying the seaker itself doesn't matter in this equation is like saying that genetics plays no role at all in the making of a supermodel.

 

[fmw]

While not diminishing the importance of room treatments and speaker placement, saying the seaker itself doesn't matter in this equation is like saying that genetics plays no role at all in the making of a supermodel.

I don't think anybody is saying that speakers don't matter. They do. The argument seems to be the relative importance of room acoustics to speaker design and quality. In our test 70% of the audiophiles preferred an inferior speaker in an acoustically good room to a superior speaker in a poor room. 100% of those audiophiles preferred the superior speaker in either room. So while speaker design and quality is certainly easily perceptible audibly in an extreme comparison, the speakers themselves can't trump overall room acoustics in a similarly extreme comparison. Lets say room acoustics are first, speakers second and room treatments third. I think that would be accurate based on our tests.

 

[markw]

I hear ya, but I think these two lines pretty sum up my feelings.

In our test 70% of the audiophiles preferred an inferior speaker in an acoustically good room to a superior speaker in a poor room.

and...

100% of those audiophiles preferred the superior speaker in either room.

The fact that the "superior" speaker was preferred in either room tends to make my point fairly succinctly. The better the material you're starting with, the better the end result.

Need any more clarification?

Look, I use a similar comaparison to FM tuners and antennas where I'll say that "A mediocre tuner with a great antenna will outperform a great tuner with an mediocre antenna" and, to a point, it's true. But, all else being equal, that superior tuner will do better than that mediocre antenna on either antenna. Same with speakers and room interaction.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Silly question but if you are willing to send me 5 grand I just want you to know that not only do I agree with you 100% but I have always agreed with you. You look good too. Have you been working out?

The check is in the mail.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...In our test 70% of the audiophiles preferred an inferior speaker in an acoustically good room to a superior speaker in a poor room...

Yes, but the "inferior" speakers were $700, not $25 Wal-Mart speakers!

If the speakers were truly significantly inferior ($25 speakers), people would pick the truly superior speakers ($25,000) 100% of the time regardless of room acoustics.

 

[TLS Guy]

I had some old crap speakers in my living room. They seemed to sound ok to me. Then I upgraded to some decent speakers. I placed them in the same place as the old speakers and they sounded tons better. In this situation there was no change to my room acoustics. The difference was so big that my wife, who can't stand anything I do with this stuff, even commented on it without my asking. To me, that tells me that the speakers have a huge impact on sound quality. More so than acoustics.

Of course that is true. Good speakers are the most important part of the equation, and there are very few that are any good.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Of course that is true. Good speakers are the most important part of the equation, and there are very few that are any good.

I find the exact opposite to be true. The vast majority of today's speakers are quite good, with poor ones being a rare exception. It is fair to say, however, that very few are anything special.

 

[3db]

Of course that is true. Good speakers are the most important part of the equation, and there are very few that are any good.

Good is a relative term. Speakers unless throwing a ton of money at them are at best a compromise of designs as many of the design paramaters are at at opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

[fmw]

Yes, but the "inferior" speakers were $700, not $25 Wal-Mart speakers!

If the speakers were truly significantly inferior ($25 speakers), people would pick the truly superior speakers ($25,000) 100% of the time regardless of room acoustics.

Yes, I suppose it is a matter of degree and definition. My point was that the $5000 high fidelity speakers couldn't trump the room acoustics against $700 high fidelity speakers even though everyone preferred the $5000 speakers when tested in the same room. Hope that's accurate enough for you, sea lawyer. If the $700 speakers had been Bose instead of Boston Acoustics then all bets would have been off.