Speakers costing $100's less

[zumbo]

Fantastic brands mentioned by jostenmeat. Once you get into this class of speaker, nothing else cuts it.

 

[watchdog]

Jostenmeat,
Point noted.

Unfortunately I have nowhere near the experience and or exposure to the types of speakers which you mention. My awareness and knowledge are second hand from having read various forums and numerous threads on "value" speakers which is what I am trying to identify. However, I find I am falling into the analysis paralysis trap.

That being said, given you level of expertise both first hand and technical experience, can you apply your knowledge and provide your feedback on any of the speakers which I mentioned in the first post what you believe to be a superior solution for a 5.1 Surround system at say sub $1500.

Although these forums are great, I am having difficulty discerning all the reviews and feedback on various speakers b/c the reviews/tests are done by different people versus just one or one group.

 

[jostenmeat]

Jostenmeat,
Point noted.

Unfortunately I have nowhere near the experience and or exposure to the types of speakers which you mention. My awareness and knowledge are second hand from having read various forums and numerous threads on "value" speakers which is what I am trying to identify. However, I find I am falling into the analysis paralysis trap.

That being said, given you level of expertise both first hand and technical experience, can you apply your knowledge and provide your feedback on any of the speakers which I mentioned in the first post what you believe to be a superior solution for a 5.1 Surround system at say sub $1500.

Although these forums are great, I am having difficulty discerning all the reviews and feedback on various speakers b/c the reviews/tests are done by different people versus just one or one group.

Just an observation: I have now been lurking here learning about different brands for several weeks. Great information for people like me who've been out of touch with music for the last 20 years. One common theme I have heard over and over regarding 'many' speakers (i.e. Ascends, Axiom, NHT, PSB's, X-LS and others) in the sub $400 range is the statement below or an iteration of it.

"These speakers are a great deal and cost hundreds less than many others of comparable sound and will even hold their own against other elite brands costing over $1000."

Does anyone else find this ironical given so many are in this space with great performance. Maybe the statement should go like this.

"These $1500 speakers, albeit beautiful to look at, perform similar to 'many' sub $400 speakers."

Just my two cents worth.

Sorry man, I only know the PSB's. Well, for 2 seconds I've heard some NHTs in passing while excitedly scurrying about from dedicated room to dedicated room at a place with Quads, B&Ws, Sonus Fabers, REL, velodyne, etc, with McCormack, Primare, and Rotel gear.

What have you heard so far, and what do you think? What did you love about any speaker and what did you wish it did either better or differently. I just bought my first pair of nice speakers just 5 months ago. Yes, I picked the brains of double digit audio dealers, 25+ pairs of speakers listened across about double digit brands, with innumerable revisits to favorites, filling up a Mead mini notebook with scrawled notes while listening to a 6 cd array. I made sure I got what I wanted, and it wasn't easy!!! My budget simply exploded in the process too. Ridiculous.

Unlike many/most/innumerable posters here, I did not want to go the way of ID. There is nothing to argue, or at least nothing I feel compelled to argue about, its just the path I took. Easier for me since I live in SoCal, a pretty people packed cosmopolitan area with too many stores. Well, your selections seem to be half ID brands? It seems that the Audioholics reviewers just love the Axiom speakers. The few detractions I hear are about the forward/bright nature of the tweeters, and perhaps particularly the double tweeters on their nicer/nicest towers. I think the QS8 surrounds look really cool and would love to hear them one day. NHT, people might say the same thing about brightness, and some lovers think they are very accurate with voice. Lovers of PSB say the same thing regarding vocal traits.

You really must find for yourself what you want. For instance, I did an A/B test last week with PSBs and MA bronze series bookshelves. The PSBs cranked better, larger soundstage, much superior extension. However, they were brighter, more unforgiving, and most importantly to me, they did not have as pleasant of a coloration. I do not know if this house-sound/coloration directly attributed to the one real thing I liked better about the Monitor Audios: I found they created fuller and/or variated simultaneous timbres. For me, this gives the music more soul, enjoyability, and perhaps even comprehensibilty. BUT, they compressed very, very quickly compared to the PSBs. So, I would take PSB for HT surrounds easily, (which is what I have for precisely that purpose only) and I would take the MAs for low-level, near-field home office music easily. (I'm hunting for gifts). Stuff like that, catch my drift? Assuming my first impressions were remotely based on some sort of reality, which would you pick?

It wouldn't hurt for you to list some commonly asked for information:

1. %s music vs HT?
2. Willing to upgrade over time? (ie starting 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 6.0, 2.1, 3.1, 4.1, etc).
3. Volume of room? (very important. Sub is key in HT. Will decidedly change budget left for speakers, if answer to #1 is HT 90%, etc.)

I hope yet another point shall be taken Post what you think after hearing. I just did today, and these speakers aren't even for me...

 

[watchdog]

Solid points and appreciated. This looks like it will take time, which I have very little. I live in Minneapolis and so far, have seen only Pardigms, Sonus and NHT aside from Best Buy and Circuit City. Not much in the way of Hi FI stores here.

I guess since I travel for business, I will try and scope out some other brands.

My system will be for HT and music in a 17 X 21 room. I listen to dinosaur 80's tunes when I do and and struggling with wall mounted, bookshelf and or floor speakers. Decisions! I have a 4 and 6 year old and they destroy everything.
So a system like the Canton CD50's (5) with sub appeal b/c I know the kids can break 'em.

I will keep yo posted.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I wanted to see if a "ravely reviewed/bang for the buck" type actually sounded better compared to a doubly priced B&W 703s.

I owned a pair of 705s, but have sold them. The reason is that my Boston VR2s, at half the price, equal their performance in mids/highs and exceed it in bass. The B&Ws had a slight edge in soundstage/imaging, but for 2/3 the price ($200 more than the Bostons), my Def Tech BP10s outperform them in that regard as well.
My conclusion is that while B&W speakers sound good when price is not an issue, they do not offer good bang for the buck.

 

[jostenmeat]

I owned a pair of 705s, but have sold them. The reason is that my Boston VR2s, at half the price, equal their performance in mids/highs and exceed it in bass. The B&Ws had a slight edge in soundstage/imaging, but for 2/3 the price ($200 more than the Bostons), my Def Tech BP10s outperform them in that regard as well.
My conclusion is that while B&W speakers sound good when price is not an issue, they do not offer good bang for the buck.

I might disagree. Though I've heard a lot of speakers, there are more I haven't, so... I think my preferred speaker at 2.5k msrp are the 703. At least I preferred them to similarly priced Audio Physic, VA, SF, ML, Focal, Polk, JBL, etc. The 705 does not hold a candle to the 703, very different levels of overall performance. I would even say the 704 tower probably doesn't hold a candle to the 703, let alone the bookshelf version.

My argument wasn't really addressing B&Ws value, or lack thereof, in any case. It was addressing my belief that the returns on money spent over 1k are quite real, imo, and continue to be so way past that. There are sure a lot people, like yourself, who do not believe that. That's all I was addressing.

I don't know why people keep bringing up the bookshelf models when I speak of a different B&W tower. There is a thread at AVS that speaks of the great enjoyment of the 803's, and immediately people start pushing the ID brands, but with no particular model recommended. I asked which models sounded better than the 803, since that's what one was exactly claiming. I am not saying that they were wrong, I was just incredibly curious, because the 803 is a great speaker.

What do they do? They send me a link with a bookshelf shootout involving 805s. Again, like the difference between the 703 and 705, the 803 and 805 represent totally different levels of overall performance.

Anyways, no one has really offered a speaker that is better in performance than the 803 yet, perhaps save the AV123 Ref's on a similar plane of performance. You can sure bet I would love to do an A/B test. Problem is I don't feel like putting thousands on the cc and haul em over to my local B&W dealer, and pay for shipping both ways just to find out. Call me lazy and/or paranoid if you wish.

Parting shot regarding values of ID vs BM. People don't realize the great prices one can at a BM if you buy a lot of stuff. Dealers can and will offer great prices if they know you will give them good business. ID prices are more or less immutable, save the occasional sale. However, I understand not everyone buys a lot of stuff. Still, I fully expect to continue to get excellent prices because of the business I have given my dealer. And that includes anything from a speaker stand to a high-end tube preamp. Oh ya, I get to trade-in anything that I presently own as well, pretty much no time-limit.

I understand that the above paragraph has gone tangentially. I'm sure you will allow it. Still, I will take the 703 over those Def Techs or Bostons, any day of the week. Unfair comparison? Sure. They cost more than twice as much, well at least the retail price. The whole point would be that, yes, after 1k, the curve is far from ruler flat, imo.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

The fact that the Bostons and Def techs are floorstanders is part of the reason that they sound better overall, but the 705s also failed to outperform them in the mids and highs where that is not a factor. I was merely giving an example of a case where doubling the price did not lead to an increase in performance.
I have heard the 803s and, while I would certainly accept them as a gift, I would never pay anywhere near what they ask for them. Also, going home and listening to my BP10s immediately after auditioning the 803s did not seem at all like a letdown. I have not A/Bed the Def Techs and 703s in the same room, but I am confident that the performance would not be sufficient to justify more than a small fraction of the price difference.

 

[jostenmeat]

Cool.

I think the audio companies are lucky enough to attract crazy spenders like me. I used to very recently think people like me were totally retarded and insane in the membrane. oh well!!

I am considering very, very strongly what you say regarding the BAs and B&Ws. I couldn't give the former the proper audition yesterday, as hard as I did try (I was kneeling for close to an hour). That factory renewed deal is pretty sweet. I just might go that route...

I guess too many choices are better than too few.

 

[zumbo]

For me, it's not the tweeter. It's not the mid. It's how the total package captures the original sound, or gets as close as one possibly can. I base my auditions with B&W 805's as a reference. For me, they do it best.

Like others, I don't have that amount of money to throw at a bookshelf speaker. I have mentioned it many times, but no-one ever gives MB Quart a try at this forum. If you google MB Quart QLS(models I own), you will find other forums with members that praise them as well. If you like B&W, you will love MB Quart.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-3858754-8170551?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=MB+Quart+Alexxa&x=18&y=19

I just found my floorstanders for $799.00 + $65 shipping on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/MB-Quart-QLS-830-6-5-3-Way-S-Line-Tower-Speakers-Pr_W0QQitemZ150165918667QQihZ005QQcategoryZ14993QQcmdZViewItem

Same company has the bookshelf model.
http://www.unitedonlineshopping.com/mbquql62slib.html

I don't know about the new Alexxa line, but the QLS are handmade in Germany. There is just not enough words I can say about the quality.

 

[MDS]

As I see it the problem with trying to audition all of these brands that people like is that you just can't get access to them unless you can buy sight unseen from an internet dealer with the option to return them.

There are zero 'high end' audio stores around me now. A&B TV carries Paradigm, Jamo, and NHT but when I went in there this weekend I was told that they can order NHT or Jamo but they don't have any in the store. That's the problem - if you already know what you want you can just order them. If you want to 'audition' them you have to either drive hundreds of miles or take a chance and order from a dealer that would let you return them.

That's why most people end up with more mainstream brands that are readily available because it's just too much hassle.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

As I see it the problem with trying to audition all of these brands that people like is that you just can't get access to them unless you can buy sight unseen from an internet dealer with the option to return them.

There are zero 'high end' audio stores around me now. A&B TV carries Paradigm, Jamo, and NHT but when I went in there this weekend I was told that they can order NHT or Jamo but they don't have any in the store. That's the problem - if you already know what you want you can just order them. If you want to 'audition' them you have to either drive hundreds of miles or take a chance and order from a dealer that would let you return them.

That's why most people end up with more mainstream brands that are readily available because it's just too much hassle.

Thanks to big box stores and the internet, people in your position will soon be the majority. Stores where we can audition a variety of quality speakers are rapidly disappearing. Buying sight unseen will soon be the only option for any brands other than what the big box stores carry.

 

[Alamar]

One common theme I have heard over and over regarding 'many' speakers (i.e. Ascends, Axiom, NHT, PSB's, X-LS and others) in the sub $400 range is the statement below or an iteration of it.

"These speakers are a great deal and cost hundreds less than many others of comparable sound and will even hold their own against other elite brands costing over $1000."

Does anyone else find this ironical given so many are in this space with great performance. Maybe the statement should go like this.

"These $1500 speakers, albeit beautiful to look at, perform similar to 'many' sub $400 speakers."

Just my two cents worth.

I have the same exact problems with the reviews that I've seen and it drives me crazy. [FYI: This isn't a flame for this site ... it's a "general" problem]

The most useful reviews that I've seen are the shootouts where everything is as controlled as possible and the speakers are directly compared to each other. Even then you have to be very careful because if the environment that the speakers were tested in doesn't match your environment the review results may not meaningful to you.

The best advice that I've heard [repeated often at this site] is to take what you can from reviews but you should do as many live comparison tests with your material as possible before you make a purchase and even then try to get an in-home demo if possible.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Yeah that is a problem I have with most audio related forums. I am a college student with a very paltry budget compared to everybody else. I can't afford to order ID brands, try them, and get stuck with shipping costs if they aren't that great. That is why I like big box stores, because there is zero risk.

It is hard to ask for an analysis of which setup might be better before you go run around and start looking, namely because you can ask for a specific category of speaker, and specifically state that you don't want an ID brand, and still all of the responses you get are comparisons between different ID brands.

Not that I am not appreciative of the time people spend when they answer these, it just isn't what I am looking for.