Speaker Size Selection

[Halon451]

Quick question for anyone within earshot - much, if not all of the advice I have seen on this forum, either to myself or to others concerning the "Large", or "Small" setting on most HT Receivers has the user set all speakers (including the front mains) to "Small". While I certainly understand the logic behind the advice, my question is this:

Under what exact set of circumstances would the user select the "Large" setting, or is this mostly driven by personal choice, and most of the advice given has been in the pursuit of rectifying certian audio imperfections and/or imbalances in overall system performance?

For example: My HT Receiver specifies that any speaker with a driver larger than 6.5" would be classified as "Large", therefore the setting should reflect that. However, I have found that this greatly depends on the manufacturer and maybe the actual system involved. The main woofers of my front channels is greater than the specified size, but my RX seems to lack the power to drive them properly at those lower frequencies - or maybe it's just that the speakers themselves leave a lot to be desired - in either case, the recommendation to set them to "Small" was excellent advice for my own needs.

Just curious.

 

[WmAx]

Quick question for anyone within earshot - much, if not all of the advice I have seen on this forum, either to myself or to others concerning the "Large", or "Small" setting on most HT Receivers has the user set all speakers (including the front mains) to "Small". While I certainly understand the logic behind the advice, my question is this:

Under what exact set of circumstances would the user select the "Large" setting, or is this mostly driven by personal choice, and most of the advice given has been in the pursuit of rectifying certian audio imperfections and/or imbalances in overall system performance?

For example: My HT Receiver specifies that any speaker with a driver larger than 6.5" would be classified as "Large", therefore the setting should reflect that. However, I have found that this greatly depends on the manufacturer and maybe the actual system involved. The main woofers of my front channels is greater than the specified size, but my RX seems to lack the power to drive them properly at those lower frequencies - or maybe it's just that the speakers themselves leave a lot to be desired - in either case, the recommendation to set them to "Small" was excellent advice for my own needs.

Just curious.

You should only use large setting if you are not using subwoofer(s), or if the receiver is so limited, that it only has a 120Hz or similarly high setting for the speaker crossover option that would cause subwoofer localization issues.

Proper integration of the mains and subwoofer(s) must be accomplished with a proper integration of both. If you do this by junction of the speaker's natural roll off with the subwoofer using a crossover on only the subwoofer, then you are risking substantially higher distortion(from the main speakers) at moderate or high SPL and limited dynamic range(limit of the mains plus more amplifier power being wasted on the mains by feeding bass to them). There are some main speakers with equal ability to high quality dedicated subwoofers - but these are few - and generally limited to very high cost full range systems.

-Chris

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Quick question for anyone within earshot - much, if not all of the advice I have seen on this forum, either to myself or to others concerning the "Large", or "Small" setting on most HT Receivers has the user set all speakers (including the front mains) to "Small". While I certainly understand the logic behind the advice, my question is this:

Under what exact set of circumstances would the user select the "Large" setting, or is this mostly driven by personal choice, and most of the advice given has been in the pursuit of rectifying certian audio imperfections and/or imbalances in overall system performance?

For example: My HT Receiver specifies that any speaker with a driver larger than 6.5" would be classified as "Large", therefore the setting should reflect that. However, I have found that this greatly depends on the manufacturer and maybe the actual system involved. The main woofers of my front channels is greater than the specified size, but my RX seems to lack the power to drive them properly at those lower frequencies - or maybe it's just that the speakers themselves leave a lot to be desired - in either case, the recommendation to set them to "Small" was excellent advice for my own needs.

Just curious.

I always thought any speaker that can play 40Hz +/-6dB should be set to Large. Even if you set to Large + Subwoofer, the receiver will send all LFE (40 or 80 Hz crossover) to the subwoofer anyway.

I just feel that if you set the Main Towers to SMALL, you may lose some details that were meant for the Full Range Towers.

 

[GlocksRock]

I think that any speaker that doesn't have a built in powered sub should be set to small, unless it has some very large woofers and a lot of power going to it.

I have BP10s which have very good frequency response and I still have them set to small.

 

[3db]

Quick question for anyone within earshot - much, if not all of the advice I have seen on this forum, either to myself or to others concerning the "Large", or "Small" setting on most HT Receivers has the user set all speakers (including the front mains) to "Small". While I certainly understand the logic behind the advice, my question is this:

Under what exact set of circumstances would the user select the "Large" setting, or is this mostly driven by personal choice, and most of the advice given has been in the pursuit of rectifying certian audio imperfections and/or imbalances in overall system performance?

For example: My HT Receiver specifies that any speaker with a driver larger than 6.5" would be classified as "Large", therefore the setting should reflect that. However, I have found that this greatly depends on the manufacturer and maybe the actual system involved. The main woofers of my front channels is greater than the specified size, but my RX seems to lack the power to drive them properly at those lower frequencies - or maybe it's just that the speakers themselves leave a lot to be desired - in either case, the recommendation to set them to "Small" was excellent advice for my own needs.

Just curious.

I don't like the sound of a sub while listening to two channel music. I rather drive my PSB towers full range, straight pass thru without adding any processsing of any kind. My speakers are rated down to low 40s high 30s which is low enough for most music. The only exception is listening to music with a pipe organ. Than I want to hear the bottom end.

Music is the only time I have my mains set to large. In HT, they are set to small like the rest of my speakers.

 

[GlocksRock]

Maybe I should try setting my fronts to large before I engage Pure Direct mode, but it's my understanding that the mains play full range when pure direct is on, so I'm not sure if pure direct overrides the small/large setting. I'll have to check on that.

 

[WmAx]

I don't like the sound of a sub while listening to two channel music. I rather drive my PSB towers full range, straight pass thru without adding any processsing of any kind. My speakers are rated down to low 40s high 30s which is low enough for most music. The only exception is listening to music with a pipe organ. Than I want to hear the bottom end.

Music is the only time I have my mains set to large. In HT, they are set to small like the rest of my speakers.

Then you have an integration issue, or alternatively, you may prefer the sound of an early rolled-off LF spectrum.

-Chris

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Maybe I should try setting my fronts to large before I engage Pure Direct mode, but it's my understanding that the mains play full range when pure direct is on, so I'm not sure if pure direct overrides the small/large setting. I'll have to check on that.

PD overriides the sm/lg setting; remember that's how I have blown 2 woofers

 

[3db]

Then you have an integration issue, or alternatively, you may prefer the sound of an early rolled-off LF spectrum.

-Chris

*nods* Its a bit of both. My receiver's filter settings are at 200, 150, and a 100Hz which is next to useless. In HT, you can get away with the little extra bass but for music, I'm really picky.

 

[GlocksRock]

PD overriides the sm/lg setting; remember that's how I have blown 2 woofers

That's right, now I remember... no pure direct for you when you are drinking.

I guess my DT's just need better placement to get some better bass response, but they really can't be put anywere else other than where they are now. Either that, or their is an issue with my yamaha receiver... but they have 91 db sensitivity, and are being pushed by an Emotiva IPS-1, so I know they have enough power.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So the 2 primary factors are

1) Can your speaker play 20 - 30 Hz?
2) Is your amplifier powerful enough to drive your speaker 20-30 Hz @ 90dB?

If Yes to BOTH, then Large Speaker?

 

[3db]

So the 2 primary factors are

1) Can your speaker play 20 - 30 Hz?
2) Is your amplifier powerful enough to drive your speaker 20-30 Hz @ 90dB?

If Yes to BOTH, then Large Speaker?

Its not that simple to me. Vey few instruments play below 30Hz, I can only name two, pipe organ and the contra basoon. So when it comes to music I prefer direct mode, sans any processessing of any kind and just let the speakers sing. My receiver although a POS does 2 channel respectfully enough and can handle my speakers.

Here's a chart listing the frequency ranges of musical instruments;
http://www.dak.com/reviews/Tutorial_frequencies.cfm

 

[annunaki]

AcuDefTechGuy's last post is fairly close to the truth.

Unless the speaker can play a true full range signal and the amplifier can deliver the power equired at reference levels without clipping it should be set to small.

This is where having a receiver with highly adjustable crossovers is key as is speaker selection from the very beginning. If the mains are good down to 40hz, you could set them at 40hz for the crossover and the others at the closest frequency to their F3 or -3db point but one that is above that point. Example, the F3 on a speaker is 45hz and the crossover options nearest to it are 40hz and 60hz. You select 60hz because it is above where the speaker is beginning to roll off response. Essentially you want the lowest crossover setting without going below the speakers F3.


When I choose speakers for a surround/theater system, I like them all to have a very similar F3 or -3db point in response or bbe completely matched. That way I can have a single crossover frequency and a much more finely matched sound. I also look for speakers I can crossover as low as 60hz. A lower crossover point blends the sub better and helps it to completely "disappear" in terms of localization. However, it does require the speakers to have a fairly strong midbass capability to keep up with the sub to allow for a smooth transition. Multiple drivers in a tower speaker or a larger driver in a bookshelf become advantageous in this type of scenario.

 

[3db]

AcuDefTechGuy's last post is fairly close to the truth.

Unless the speaker can play a true full range signal and the amplifier can deliver the power equired at reference levels without clipping it should be set to small.

This is where having a receiver with highly adjustable crossovers is key as is speaker selection from the very beginning. If the mains are good down to 40hz, you could set them at 40hz for the crossover and the others at the closest frequency to their F3 or -3db point but one that is above that point. Example, the F3 on a speaker is 45hz and the crossover options nearest to it are 40hz and 60hz. You select 60hz because it is above where the speaker is beginning to roll off response. Essentially you want the lowest crossover setting without going below the speakers F3.


When I choose speakers for a surround/theater system, I like them all to have a very similar F3 or -3db point in response or bbe completely matched. That way I can have a single crossover frequency and a much more finely matched sound. I also look for speakers I can crossover as low as 60hz. A lower crossover point blends the sub better and helps it to completely "disappear" in terms of localization. However, it does require the speakers to have a fairly strong midbass capability to keep up with the sub to allow for a smooth transition. Multiple drivers in a tower speaker or a larger driver in a bookshelf become advantageous in this type of scenario.

I agree for HT purposes..But for 2 channel reproduction, but how many dedicated 2 channel systems out there have speakers that do 20Hz?

 

[annunaki]

I agree for HT purposes..But for 2 channel reproduction, but how many dedicated 2 channel systems out there have speakers that do 20Hz?

I believe the OP was referencing a surround system. For two channel with no sub, set the speakers to large and use good judgment. For 2.1 use the same philosophy I mentioned above.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree for HT purposes..But for 2 channel reproduction, but how many dedicated 2 channel systems out there have speakers that do 20Hz?

Duh. All speakers that cost over $20,000 a pair can usually do 20Hz @ 90dB.

 

[Halon451]

I believe the OP was referencing a surround system. For two channel with no sub, set the speakers to large and use good judgment. For 2.1 use the same philosophy I mentioned above.

This is true - I use my system mainly for surround sound (movies and TV). In my car is where I spent the big $$$ for a good sound system that plays music, because that's where I mostly listen to music. Anyhow...

I had originally set my front speakers to "Large" based on the specs the receiver's manual suggested. It didn't sound bad necessarily, even though these are Pioneer S-H351F-K (good luck doing a Google search on these - they were a pawn shop buy some years ago). I have to say, without being able to find the frequency response characteristics for these speakers on the web, that they don't have the capability to drive frequencies lower than probably 60 Hz reasonably well anyway.

Setting the fronts to "Large" does seem to give the overall sound field a little more presence, but setting them to "Small" adds a bit more clarity, at the expense of a good response in the mid-bass regions. My receiver crossover is set right now to 80Hz, and it's still not really getting me where I want to be in terms of overall sound quality - although it is quite adjustable. It has adjustment points at 40, 60, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 160 and 200 Hz respectively. I've tried all of them.

I'm saving up for a couple of those JBL 8" 3 way Venue Stadium speakers. My surrounds are JBL Venue Balcony and the center is a JBL N-Center.

 

[Halon451]

Oh, incidentally I've actually tried to localize my sub using different settings, just to use it as a reference point of where not to go with my system settings, and I couldn't quite achieve this. Could this be on account of a small room?

Thanks guys - as always, a tremendous help in boosting my knowledge of audio and HT systems! The road to learning is a fun experience in this forum. I am grateful.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...how many dedicated 2 channel systems out there have speakers that do 20Hz?

Def Tech BP10B
Spec: 20Hz-20kHz +/-6dB (Julian Hirsch/Stereo Review Lab)
Cost: $500 retail/ $400-$450 street price

 

[3db]

Duh. All speakers that cost over $20,000 a pair can usually do 20Hz @ 90dB.

MIne cost me$19500 so I guess I'm outta the 20/20 club