Speaker Sensitivity vs Driver Sensitivity

A

AdrianQ

Audioholic Intern
Good Day to everyone, hoping you can help me expand my knowledge base a little bit.
My problem, I have a pair of Paradigm Monitor 11 v6 . They have 2 x 6.5 bass drivers which unfortunately lack kick, slam ( if you get my meaning) in the mid bass region , Compared to my Klipsch RF-82 ii (2 x 7" bass drivers). The Paradigm's btw do have a smaller cabinet volume.

I wanted to experiment and by some better base drivers and see what happens but there's no marking on the driver (other than serial #) . They measure about 10 ohms but what about the Sensitivity? The Paradigm's have a 97db sensitivity but is sensitivity the sum of all the speaker parts, tweeter ,mid, both bass drivers, xover ? or is each driver 97db? I just want to know what drivers specs to be looking for.

Two throw in questions about he Paradigm's if you have the time:
1.If i raise the 60 hz eq band high (moderate volume) it almost obliterates my midrange volume.
2. If the midrange driver (7.5") isnt in its own enclosure (which its not) wont the midrange diaphragm get hit by the bass waves bouncing around the cabinet?

Thank you for taking the time to read my post whether you have any answer or not .
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I’m still learning speaker design, but replacing drivers is not a good idea. The crossovers that control how the drivers combine to produce sound as the full range of the speaker are designed specifically for those specific drivers. Finding different drivers that would match the greater system, without knowing the TS parameters of what’s in there now, would be next to impossible.
Each driver has its own sensitivity rating, and though ideally matched through careful driver selection and use of multiple drivers, there would also be adjustments made in the xo to balance the sound output (multiple woofers increases low output, while the tweeter may be padded down is one such example.)
Likewise, the actual electrical resistance of different drivers won’t match up easily, and again, the xo is designed specifically for those woofers and their specific impedance.
Also keep in mind that the overall box is designed around those specific woofers. Their Vas and Q affect the size of the box as well as the port tuning. There’s a lot more involved than just plug and play with the drivers.
With the right equipment, you can pull the drivers and test them for their actual T/S parameters and maybe reverse engineer it, but you would still likely need to redo the crossover to make it all work properly.
It would be far easier to just replace the speakers with something better suited to your taste and expectations. :)
Hope that helps!
 
Last edited:
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
The long and short is that it's easier, cheaper, and better to replace a speaker than to modify it. Ryan already explained why.

To understand why the Paradigm's don't have the bass "punch," you have to look at multiple factors. Driver size, enclosure size, enclosure type, and driver design. All these things have to meld in order to produce suitable bass.
 
A

AdrianQ

Audioholic Intern
I’m still learning speaker design, but replacing drivers is not a good idea. The crossovers that control how the drivers combine to produce sound as the full range of the speaker are designed specifically for those specific drivers. Finding different drivers that would match the greater system, without knowing the TS parameters of what’s in there now, would be next to impossible.
Each driver has its own sensitivity rating, and though ideally matched through careful driver selection and use of multiple drivers, there would also be adjustments made in the xo to balance the sound output (multiple woofers increases low output, while the tweeter may be padded down is one such example.)
Likewise, the actual electrical resistance of different drivers won’t match up easily, and again, the xo is designed specifically for those woofers and their specific impedance.
Also keep in mind that the overall box is designed around those specific woofers. Their Vas and Q affect the size of the box as well as the port tuning. There’s a lot more involved than just plug and play with the drivers.
With the right equipment, you can pull the drivers and test them for their actual T/S parameters and maybe reverse engineer it, but you would still likely need to redo the crossover to make it all work properly.
It would be far easier to just replace the speakers with something better suited to your taste and expectations. :)
Hope that helps!
Thanks for the reply, Unfortunately that really does suck. As I dont live in the U.S everything after shipping and duty cost slightly over double. So buying new floor standers really isn't an option at the moment.
Are they any driver kits that are matched ,with different volume sizes in my?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You may have speaker kits with crossovers (built or perhaps you'd need to build them) where you are but where is that? Here in the US I'd direct you to diysoundgroup.com for some ideas.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Good Day to everyone, hoping you can help me expand my knowledge base a little bit.
My problem, I have a pair of Paradigm Monitor 11 v6 . They have 2 x 6.5 bass drivers which unfortunately lack kick, slam ( if you get my meaning) in the mid bass region , Compared to my Klipsch RF-82 ii (2 x 7" bass drivers). The Paradigm's btw do have a smaller cabinet volume.
What SPL are you running them at? I'd not think there would be a problem with an 80Hz crossover (my Klipsch KL-650s use the same size drivers in an even smaller cabinet)

I wanted to experiment and by some better base drivers and see what happens but there's no marking on the driver (other than serial #) .
You've got a number of issues there. The crossover is likely doing sculpting on the sound and that's going to be different with different drivers. The likelihood that random drivers behave identically is low indeed.

They measure about 10 ohms but what about the Sensitivity?
Speakers don't measure at a single resistance. They have a resistance curve. I doubt those bottom at 10Ohm.

The Paradigm's have a 97db sensitivity but is sensitivity the sum of all the speaker parts, tweeter ,mid, both bass drivers, xover ? or is each driver 97db? I just want to know what drivers specs to be looking for.
97db would be both drivers together plus whatever the XOver is doing. Individual driver sensitivity for the bass drivers is likely 3db lower.
 
A

AdrianQ

Audioholic Intern
You may have speaker kits with crossovers (built or perhaps you'd need to build them) where you are but where is that? Here in the US I'd direct you to diysoundgroup.com for some ideas.
I'm in Trinidad . I can however order anything from U.S U.k etc Just once its not heavy ,thats when I get crucified with shipping and Taxes . So I will check out the site you recommended.
 
A

AdrianQ

Audioholic Intern
What SPL are you running them at? I'd not think there would be a problem with an 80Hz crossover (my Klipsch KL-650s use the same size drivers in an even smaller cabinet)


You've got a number of issues there. The crossover is likely doing sculpting on the sound and that's going to be different with different drivers. The likelihood that random drivers behave identically is low indeed.


Speakers don't measure at a single resistance. They have a resistance curve. I doubt those bottom at 10Ohm.


97db would be both drivers together plus whatever the XOver is doing. Individual driver sensitivity for the bass drivers is likely 3db lower.
Unfortunately your statement about "You've got a number of issues there", is probably spot on . I think my Enthusiasm level far exceeds my Knowledge level. I suppose this is the problem when you cant audition speakers and have to buy blind.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'm in Trinidad . I can however order anything from U.S U.k etc Just once its not heavy ,thats when I get crucified with shipping and Taxes . So I will check out the site you recommended.
As long as they'll ship to you....there are also kits available at parts-express.com, madisoundspeakerstore.com, and others....
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Then it may be that you simply don't like the flavor of "house sound" of the maker of the speaker offers, That's why there are so many different options available.

Keep in mind that each speaker system is the result of each manufacturer;s implementation of the magical combination of the physical.and electrical attributes of the drivers, the enclosure., and the crossover, to result in a particular overall sound. By trying to modify only one of those three may muddy up the entire equation.

Good luck.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Good Day to everyone, hoping you can help me expand my knowledge base a little bit.
My problem, I have a pair of Paradigm Monitor 11 v6 . They have 2 x 6.5 bass drivers which unfortunately lack kick, slam ( if you get my meaning) in the mid bass region , Compared to my Klipsch RF-82 ii (2 x 7" bass drivers). The Paradigm's btw do have a smaller cabinet volume.

I wanted to experiment and by some better base drivers and see what happens but there's no marking on the driver (other than serial #) . They measure about 10 ohms but what about the Sensitivity? The Paradigm's have a 97db sensitivity but is sensitivity the sum of all the speaker parts, tweeter ,mid, both bass drivers, xover ? or is each driver 97db? I just want to know what drivers specs to be looking for.

Two throw in questions about he Paradigm's if you have the time:
1.If i raise the 60 hz eq band high (moderate volume) it almost obliterates my midrange volume.
2. If the midrange driver (7.5") isnt in its own enclosure (which its not) wont the midrange diaphragm get hit by the bass waves bouncing around the cabinet?

Thank you for taking the time to read my post whether you have any answer or not .
What crossover frequency are you using for your subs? If it's much higher than 80Hz, you may be experiencing cancellation of some of the mid-bass- if they have a simple 0/180 degree phase switch, it's very likely. I prefer subs that have a continuously variable phase control because it's easier to place them where they can go (since it's not always possible to place them where they need to go for best performance.

It might be helpful to download Room EQ Wizard and see your frequency response- once you do that, you can watch the response change as you move speakers and make other changes.
 
A

AdrianQ

Audioholic Intern
What crossover frequency are you using for your subs? If it's much higher than 80Hz, you may be experiencing cancellation of some of the mid-bass- if they have a simple 0/180 degree phase switch, it's very likely. I prefer subs that have a continuously variable phase control because it's easier to place them where they can go (since it's not always possible to place them where they need to go for best performance.

It might be helpful to download Room EQ Wizard and see your frequency response- once you do that, you can watch the response change as you move speakers and make other changes.
I have tried changing my sub ranges many times and their placements . True story : Wife walked in to find me in the corner or the room with my ear to the floor...and proceeded to Google "symptoms of Manic Depression" . That was a Hilarious discussion as I tried to explain that I was listening to the sounds of the floor.
I am Watching a tutorial on Room EQ Wizard, so thanks for that ,we'll see how that goes.
 
A

AdrianQ

Audioholic Intern
Then it may be that you simply don't like the flavor of "house sound" of the maker of the speaker offers, That's why there are so many different options available.

Keep in mind that each speaker system is the result of each manufacturer;s implementation of the magical combination of the physical.and electrical attributes of the drivers, the enclosure., and the crossover, to result in a particular overall sound. By trying to modify only one of those three may muddy up the entire equation.

Good luck.
I do like my Paradigm's hence why they are my mains and not my Klipsch's . The "company sound" of the speakers are quite different . If I could have the bottom end of my Klipsch's and the Top end of my Paradigm's I would be a happy man but as many have pointed out just switching out one component would probably just mess up my system.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I have tried changing my sub ranges many times and their placements . True story : Wife walked in to find me in the corner or the room with my ear to the floor...and proceeded to Google "symptoms of Manic Depression" . That was a Hilarious discussion as I tried to explain that I was listening to the sounds of the floor.
I am Watching a tutorial on Room EQ Wizard, so thanks for that ,we'll see how that goes.
Use it with and without the subs, then add one sub to see how it changes. Once you see that, add the second to see how it changes.

My room had problems that needed acoustic treatment and that fixed the problem. Your room may just need tweaking the speaker placement (which is where I started and it was small increments that helped).

That's not Manic Depression, that's 'listening for a train'.
 
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