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Gene_D

Audiophyte
New to the forum. Hopefully I can contribute, where appropriate.

I recently moved and finally got all of the speaker/xlr wires buried in the walls. I've got my subs in a fantastic location, where they completely blend with the mains perfectly. Rears are mounted and time-aligned (ARC Genesis). Fronts sound good, center imaging is there, but the soundstage is only about 90% there. In my old house (much smaller room) I was able to get that effect where they completely disappeared. Now, there's just something that I can't put my finger on. The L/R is noticeable. I put them on coasters and tweaked them to death, but I'm missing something here. I can move the couch back a couple of feet, and I can move the speakers out another 6" before my wife... well, you know. I'm hoping you all might have a couple suggestions based on my setup. I'll try to include as much detail as possible...

Equipment:
Mains: Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grands
Center: VA Maestro Grand
Rears: VA Waltz Grand
Subs (2): Rythmik Audio F12SE

AV: Anthem MRX540 (Processing movies and power to ctr and rears)
2 Channel: Parasound Halo Hint 6 (Utilizing Theater Bypass for Movies)
Bluesound Node 2i with Tidal Hi-Res

ELAC Sensible Speaker Cables
Audio-Magic Excalibur SHD Interconnects

Room: 24' Wide x 41' max - (Stairwell wall is 26')
Ceiling Max: 10' 11"

Front of speakers are 2' 7" from back wall / 9' 8" apart / 10' 10" to listening position

Lastly, the reason it took me so long to join a forum is my avoidance of snobbery. I'm looking for a solution to my problem (and to contribute to a group). I've grown weary of "Oh, I wouldn't sell Vienna to my worst enemy!" and "If it's not McIntosh, throw it away". So if you don't like my equipment, thank you.... it's what I like, and to me, that's what this hobby is about. I have many hobbies and I have to spread the funding accordingly.

Thank you for any input you may have.
 

Attachments

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Why do you list the wire involved? This isn't that kind of forum.....

At a guess I'd say simply the difference in room acoustics, though and if you've done what you can without changing gear....hard to know what you think you remember let alone what you're experiencing over the internet. Perhaps just running your ARC again...
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Nothing strikes me as out of whack by your description.
My thoughts are that you might want to redo your room correction sweeps and adjust some more. You pretty much seem to already suspect it is the new room. I agree with this.

In terms of the other stuff you discuss, you only invite push back by doing so. You have gear you like. Period. It worked to good effect in your previous setup. That’s fine.

Other than room size, what else changed? Do you have less stuff in the space? More reflective surfaces?

I suspect you can work your way back through the differences and perhaps come to a point of resolution.

Perhaps you will need to do something about the reflective surfaces all around. The ceiling and naked walls with widows just scream for some attention.

Mind, I’m not suggesting you hang panels everywhere, but the room itself is likely very live.

Just my thoughts on it without being there to experience it.
 
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dolynick

Audioholic
I set up a very similar system in my parents place 15 years ago.

Beethoven Baby Grands
Maestro Center
4x Waltz for rears& surrounds
Single sub
Older Anthem MRX receiver (710? Not sure off hand)

The room was a dedicated theatre room and it was a long rectangle with the screen mounted on the long wall with a wide row of seating opposite. Not sure of the dimentions but probably something on the order 35' x 15'.

Movies sounded just fine but I could never get stereo to work all that well with the Baby Grands. I always chalked it up placement in the room - specifically distance from the side walls. Like yours, they were about 10' apart with another 10' or so to each side for the boundary walls. I never did find a solution becuase stereo listening was not really a priority in there, but your issue seems highly coincidental given the similarities.

First, I would double-check the wiring and polarity to the mains. A phase issue there would definitely explain imaging issues (though usually means no center image).

Second, I would test sitting in a more nearfield position to see if you get a better imaging effect. You wouldn't want to spread them apart much wider (in my opinion at least), but if nearfield does work better I would take to be a room boundary/interaction issue. That could be difficult to find a good solution too, but maybe a little farther out into the room and moving the MLP up a little closer might help.

Have you done any sort of RT60 test? Even a simple clap test to see how much echo is in the room? It's large with a peaked ceiling and mostly hard surfaces on the walls. A lot of delayed reflections are going to smear any soundstage you get too. I suspect the distance to your physical rear walls will be helping in this case, but it's worth checking anyways.

Oh. And there is nothing wrong with your equipment :) I'm running a 7.2.4 VA system myself and while they have a voicing, they still sound great. They're biggest failing is they don't like to be pushed too hard.
 
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Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
gene, welcome aboard ! I'm in agreement with others in that your room is the culprit. For one thing it appears the windows are smack dab at the first point of reflection. At a minimum start their with maybe a heavy blanket to see if there's an improvement ?

I say experiment with one variable at a time until you get it dialed in

Ps - I too am a Vienna Acoustics fan !
 
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Gene_D

Audiophyte
Thank you for the replies. First off, I apologize for coming off as salty. I really enjoy our hobby, but the level of elitist criticisms just keeps sending me back to my isolated little corner. I've searched for days for a new forum and this one seems to be the most open. I shouldn't have opened with assumptions. (And the comment about not selling VA to their worst enemy was an actual interaction at a shop in San Francisco).

So, the reason I'd mentioned wires; I'm ambivalent about wires (besides the obvious disparaties). I was able to directly A/B the Audio-Magic RCA interconnects to an Audioquest Coax. Was it the wires or the DAC in the BlueSound vs Parasound? I'm not sure. Also, the ELAC speaker wires are a new addition so I was leaving it open to someone saying that they've had issues with them. Again, I was trying to be as detailed as possible.

For the room, it's one of those dumb-dumb realizations. I moved from a dense neighborhood to overlooking the forest. I think I was so enthralled with the daily view that it completely slipped past me that I have giant sound mirrors all around. All glass has double cell blackout shades, so I'll pull everything down and see what difference that makes. Thank you for the head slap on that one. I will also look into performing the RT60 test.

I did move the couch about a foot closer and it helped bring things in. However, I've read in a few places that these speakers are quite tricky to place just right. That's where I was looking for suggestions. I was hoping someone had experience to say that they're too far apart, need extreme toe-in, no toe-in, something that I'm just missing. Movies sound great, but they're movies. I also probably shouldn't have even mentioned sound adjustment as that was simply for movies (the Anthem). 2 channel is processed directly through the Parasound.
The room here is significantly larger. Before I was crammed into a 12' by 15' space. I'll start looking at reflections, and maybe my ears just need to adjust to the new space.

With that, how do you all deal with the balance of a "living space" and acoustically perfect setup? Am I the only one that would be sleeping in the garage if I tried to hand acoustic panels from the ceiling? She often jokes that she's going to replace everything with a Bose Acoustimass system while I'm at work.
 
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dolynick

Audioholic
Thank you for the replies. First off, I apologize for coming off as salty. I really enjoy our hobby, but the level of elitist criticisms just keeps sending me back to my isolated little corner. I've searched for days for a new forum and this one seems to be the most open. I shouldn't have opened with assumptions. (And the comment about not selling VA to their worst enemy was an actual interaction at a shop in San Francisco).
I laughed at your initial comments as I knew exactly what you meant. Most forums, including this one, have some of that going on and certain things can trip a less than ideal response. So far, this has gone well though.

Out of curiosity, is there a specific reason for why your 2 channel setup doesn't include the Anthem as a pre-out and applying room EQ to your stereo setup as well? I get there's a simplicity argument to be made but I would think that ARC might be a bigger benefit overall than any of the drawbacks of including it. I can think of a few reasons and it's fine, but I was just wondering on what they might be.

With that, how do you all deal with the balance of a "living space" and acoustically perfect setup? Am I the only one that would be sleeping in the garage if I tried to hand acoustic panels from the ceiling? She often jokes that she's going to replace everything with a Bose Acoustimass system while I'm at work.
Honestly, there's a point of practicality at which I just accept that things are going to be as they are going to be. If it's not a dedicated space (and even then, there are limits), I usually try to do some balance with the other needs of the room. Of the three systems I have set up in the house, none of them are "perfect" but some less-so than others and in step with the other utilization of the room. In then end, you're always going to be listening to your room as much as the equipment so unless you want to go into the treatment side of things, it's always going to have it's way.

The Baby Grands might be a bit touchy about placement. As I mentioned, I didn't have a lot of luck with them along a wide space either. My living room system is along the wide dimension as well, but seems to soundstage better. The best results I've had are usually in rooms where the side walls are closer to the fronts. The VA (full) Beethoven Grands in my theatre are only a few feet from the side walls and throw great soundstage. Looking at your pictures again, I would try at least a little more toe-in (something like a path a foot or two to either side of the MLP/head position).
 
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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Thank you for the replies. First off, I apologize for coming off as salty. I really enjoy our hobby, but the level of elitist criticisms just keeps sending me back to my isolated little corner. I've searched for days for a new forum and this one seems to be the most open. I shouldn't have opened with assumptions. (And the comment about not selling VA to their worst enemy was an actual interaction at a shop in San Francisco).

So, the reason I'd mentioned wires; I'm ambivalent about wires (besides the obvious disparaties). I was able to directly A/B the Audio-Magic RCA interconnects to an Audioquest Coax. Was it the wires or the DAC in the BlueSound vs Parasound? I'm not sure. Also, the ELAC speaker wires are a new addition so I was leaving it open to someone saying that they've had issues with them. Again, I was trying to be as detailed as possible.

For the room, it's one of those dumb-dumb realizations. I moved from a dense neighborhood to overlooking the forest. I think I was so enthralled with the daily view that it completely slipped past me that I have giant sound mirrors all around. All glass has double cell blackout shades, so I'll pull everything down and see what difference that makes. Thank you for the head slap on that one. I will also look into performing the RT60 test.

I did move the couch about a foot closer and it helped bring things in. However, I've read in a few places that these speakers are quite tricky to place just right. That's where I was looking for suggestions. I was hoping someone had experience to say that they're too far apart, need extreme toe-in, no toe-in, something that I'm just missing. Movies sound great, but they're movies. I also probably shouldn't have even mentioned sound adjustment as that was simply for movies (the Anthem). 2 channel is processed directly through the Parasound.
The room here is significantly larger. Before I was crammed into a 12' by 15' space. I'll start looking at reflections, and maybe my ears just need to adjust to the new space.

With that, how do you all deal with the balance of a "living space" and acoustically perfect setup? Am I the only one that would be sleeping in the garage if I tried to hand acoustic panels from the ceiling? She often jokes that she's going to replace everything with a Bose Acoustimass system while I'm at work.
We all have to make compromises in our situations. That's the very nature of life if we aren't fortunate enough to have the perfect space which can be dedicated to nothing else. ;)

Blinds are one thing: next step is hang curtains. Even left open they will help break up the room a little, but if you really want to sit in dreamland with your favorite recording, closing the ones at the front of the room will have a significant impact.
A further step that would be minimally invasive would be to perhaps put some acoustic panels behind the front Speakers. Suggesting this is a bit tricky as we don't know exactly what may be happening in your room, but treating that front wall a little bit could help with some of the reflected energy.
To that point, this is where getting your hands on a measurement mic and REW (room eq wizard) can be very helpful. You don't have to be a pro acoustician to use it, though there is a bit of a learning curve. Folk here can help interpret graphs if you have questions. But for the cost of a microphone (about $100) you can start digging in to what is happening in your room and understanding what might be needed to make the changes that will aid you in your goal.

A follow up though re room size... A larger room should be easier for the Speaker to "disappear" in. That's the theory, at least. But consider that in the smaller room, you were likely enveloped by all that energy concentrated and moving around you. In this new room, you don't have the same boundary support and thus the acoustic issues are different and questing for the same experience as before may well be challenging.
FWIW, I'm in a very small room, too, 11x15'. When listening in stereo, I get a quasi-surround field because of the way all that sound moves around and stays in my room. The designer of my Speakers and I have discussed some of the effects I note about my mains and one aspect of difference is his listening environment where he fine tunes his designs is larger. Short version, he doesn't necessarily agree with me about the effect I experience. ;) This isn't a bad thing, it's just different. :)
However, the moral of this is that if I were to set up in a larger room, I would undoubtedly lose the effect I currently enjoy in my small room.
To that point, I don't really like the idea of saying the Speakers "disappear." While I get the concept, I think what you and I both experience(d) in our small rooms is more about envelopment of energy. If you look up an old video that made some waves on various fora about how to place your Speakers so they disappear, posted by New Record Day, he gives his process for finding that right spot. (Not saying I agree, but just some "food for thought." :p )
For him, as I recall, he needed to pull the Speakers pretty far out into his room to achieve this. Of course, leaving them there isn't an option. But again, this goes some way to showing the every room will be different and the things that worked before won't necessarily work now.

Perhaps you'll find something in all of this to help out further.

 
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dolynick

Audioholic
FWIW, I'm in a very small room, too, 11x15'. When listening in stereo, I get a quasi-surround field because of the way all that sound moves around and stays in my room. The designer of my Speakers and I have discussed some of the effects I note about my mains and one aspect of difference is his listening environment where he fine tunes his designs is larger. Short version, he doesn't necessarily agree with me about the effect I experience. ;) This isn't a bad thing, it's just different. :)
However, the moral of this is that if I were to set up in a larger room, I would undoubtedly lose the effect I currently enjoy in my small room.
I think this is what I was trying to describe when I mentioned having better luck with soundstages in rooms with nearer side walls. Ryanosaur did a better job of defining it. I have a feeling that what you're missing is probably along the same lines as we're all describing an effect from within a smaller space.
 
G

Gene_D

Audiophyte
Out of curiosity, is there a specific reason for why your 2 channel setup doesn't include the Anthem as a pre-out and applying room EQ to your stereo setup as well? I get there's a simplicity argument to be made but I would think that ARC might be a bigger benefit overall than any of the drawbacks of including it. I can think of a few reasons and it's fine, but I was just wondering on what they might be.
There's a good chance I have my system setup incorrectly. My main focus was 2 channel. I've always had AVRs, so a decent stand alone, music driven integrated was my goal with the Parasound. The Anthem was an afterthought purchase, simply because I'm really less than 10% movies. It was suggested that getting a standalone processor, other than Emotiva, would be either hard to find or prohibitively outside of my budget. So, get something like an Anthem or Arcam, use the pre-outs, utilizing the "Theater Bypass" on the Parasound to run the mains (but still controlled by the Anthem). So, I guess I could process audio through the Anthem, but that would somewhat negate the point of the Parasound Integrated. Thinking out loud here; I can run analog and digital simultaneously from the Bluesound Node. I'll connect the digital to the Anthem, RCA to the Parasound and A/B them. If it's significantly better, then maybe I change from an integrated to stand alone 2 channel. However, the long term goal is to have the living room as a dedicated 2 channel with no TV. There's a 3rd floor to this house that's unbelievably primed to be a full theater. My wife is already looking for an original Ms PacMan game and popcorn machine for the "lobby".


Honestly, there's a point of practicality at which I just accept that things are going to be as they are going to be. If it's not a dedicated space (and even then, there are limits), I usually try to do some balance with the other needs of the room. Of the three systems I have set up in the house, none of them are "perfect" but some less-so than others and in step with the other utilization of the room. In then end, you're always going to be listening to your room as much as the equipment so unless you want to go into the treatment side of things, it's always going to have it's way.

The Baby Grands might be a bit touchy about placement. As I mentioned, I didn't have a lot of luck with them along a wide space either. My living room system is along the wide dimension as well, but seems to soundstage better. The best results I've had are usually in rooms where the side walls are closer to the fronts. The VA (full) Beethoven Grands in my theatre are only a few feet from the side walls and throw great soundstage. Looking at your pictures again, I would try at least a little more toe-in (something like a path a foot or two to either side of the MLP/head position).
I'll play with toe-in. My previous room was setup on the narrow end, so I'm certainly seeing how the layout provides different results. My music room has near field monitors, so the differences in sound is also something to adjust to since I've spent years with everything being in a closed-in environment. I've been looking at switching them out for the full Grands, but haven't been able to hear if there's that much of a difference.

Most of the homes in this area are cabin style, so finding a house that didn't have a fireplace as the centerpiece was a challenge. I do appreciate having a wife who understood having an open wall was a requirement, so I have to take the wins where I get them.

To that point, I don't really like the idea of saying the Speakers "disappear." While I get the concept, I think what you and I both experience(d) in our small rooms is more about envelopment of energy.
One thing I'm not, is a poet. I find it incredibly difficult to articulate the subtitles of audio. By "dissapear", I just remember that I could point to any distinctive sound, but it was never directly at the speaker itself. Now, there's instances where I think "damn, that's right from the speaker". Not a lot, but not what I had. There's also the slightest bias to the right. Again, not always, but enough that I notice on some recordings that used to seem dead center.
 
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dolynick

Audioholic
There's a good chance I have my system setup incorrectly.
I was definitely not trying to suggest you were "doing it wrong". As I said I was mainly just curious why you were choosing to use the Anthem with it's room correction as a pre-amp only in some circumstances rather than just treating it as a power amp with it's bypass on full-time. Some people just prefer an all analog stage like you'd get with an older style integrated.

I myself am running an old Musical Fidelity integrated in a similar way, but on bypass full time so I do get you're take on the underuse aspect. It is waste of all the other features in the integrated and I would buy a dedicated power amp if I were to replace it now, but it wasn't it's original intent and it just sort of fell into the roll in time.

I've been looking at switching them out for the full Grands, but haven't been able to hear if there's that much of a difference.
I can't really answer that for you despite having had direct access to both for many years. They were just never in the same room and acoustic environment (or amplification for that matter) to get a fair comparison. I believe they are pretty close tonally, as you might expect from being within the same family but the Babies just never got a chance to show how they measured up on the bottom end or in scale with the full Beethovens.

I might say that the Fulls will fill in the room better, but I don't recall any review of the Babies having complaints on that end anyways. As good as the Fulls sound, I do find that they start to lose their composure and sweetness once pushed up to ~85db at my MLP (which is around my limit anyways), so I'm not sure I would say they'd really be better suited for dealing with a larger room anyways. The newer Reference series of the line might handle higher dynamics better but I've never heard them and the costs have really gone up on those too.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
So, the reason I'd mentioned wires; I'm ambivalent about wires (besides the obvious disparaties). I was able to directly A/B the Audio-Magic RCA interconnects to an Audioquest Coax. Was it the wires or the DAC in the BlueSound vs Parasound? I'm not sure. Also, the ELAC speaker wires are a new addition so I was leaving it open to someone saying that they've had issues with them. Again, I was trying to be as detailed as possible.
Was it a sighted non-level matched test? Most likely not a difference in "sound" between wires, even silly wires like Fraudioquest or the "magic" ones. The only thing wrong with Elac wire is likely the price.
 
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dolynick

Audioholic
I was reading a discussion about what makes some speakers sound "larger" than others and interesting suggestion you could try with your Baby Grands came up:

You could try raising them up off the floor a little bit. Getting the tweeter a little above your ear level is the goal. You could also try angling them down a bit as well if possible, depending on how much you raise them.

I know the Baby Grands aren't mean to be raised, but sticking something like a cinder block or two under them for a quick test might be worth a go. My guess is your ceiling height has gone up in the new place as well, so playing with the vertical ratios might help.

I recently did something like this with my bookshelves in the small system. I went from 29" stands to 36", with another 6" angled desktop stand lashed on top to angle them back down a bit to more of a seated height again. I did this more to get them to better clear some obstructions (monitors, audio rack) in a cluttered space, but do think that the result sound bigger than before as well.
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Ninja
I have the Elac sensible speaker cables. 14 gauge 99% ofc copper. Convenient in terminated 10 foot runs for $89 a pair. Maybe a little overpriced but good for me. Unless you want to go to a bigger gauge I'd keep them. And the best thing about your cables is that you already own them. Buying or making anything else would cost additional $$.
 
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G

Gene_D

Audiophyte
Was it a sighted non-level matched test? Most likely not a difference in "sound" between wires, even silly wires like Fraudioquest or the "magic" ones. The only thing wrong with Elac wire is likely the price.
As I stated, I'm ambivalent when it comes to wires. Although I don't want to run interconnects from WalMart, I also believe there's a rapidly rate of diminishing returns in cost. As for testing, I did, what I feel is the most accurate test there is. I covered the lights on the amp and had my wife standing behind me changing from the coax to the RCA so I didn't know which was which. The difference was subtle, but it was obviously there. There was an openness to the space in one over the other. Also, my preference isn't the one that I imagined it to be, but as I also stated, it could have just been the difference in DACs, and nothing to do with the wires.
As for cost, free or close to works for me. The Audioquest came from my brother in law that used to manage a Magnolia, so cables are plentiful. The ELAC were on sale for $60, and were not only more aesthetically pleasing, but much easer to deal with then the old bi-wire Monster MSeries M1.4 that I had (also free). As for the Audio-Magic... I went by the guys house with a friend (business trip in Denver) when he was buying something. We spent a few hours listening on the guys "test system". Call it whatever BS you want, but I've never heard sound act in a 3 dimensional way as it did in his system. Words cannot describe and I simply wouldn't ever think it was physically possible to experience what I did there. The guy's doing something right. Would I pay his prices? No. Did I think the weird little copper pyramids and crystals in the room were a bit much? Absolutely. Weird phosphorescent looking paint on all of his tubes? No idea... but I can't sit in a room of his creating for hours and call it bullshit either. On the most expensive systems I'd ever auditioned, nothing came close to touching this. I was given the RCAs later in exchange for some soldering services from my friend. I don't defend the weird wire obsession, but I think when a good deal could be had, why ignore it out of contempt?

I was called away from town for a few days so I'll be trying suggestions when I return home. I'll raise them up, move them out, cover windows, toe-in.... I'll kick my wife out of the house and just spend a day experimenting. I'll post back if I come up with any interesting improvements.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
As I stated, I'm ambivalent when it comes to wires. Although I don't want to run interconnects from WalMart, I also believe there's a rapidly rate of diminishing returns in cost. As for testing, I did, what I feel is the most accurate test there is. I covered the lights on the amp and had my wife standing behind me changing from the coax to the RCA so I didn't know which was which. The difference was subtle, but it was obviously there. There was an openness to the space in one over the other. Also, my preference isn't the one that I imagined it to be, but as I also stated, it could have just been the difference in DACs, and nothing to do with the wires.
As for cost, free or close to works for me. The Audioquest came from my brother in law that used to manage a Magnolia, so cables are plentiful. The ELAC were on sale for $60, and were not only more aesthetically pleasing, but much easer to deal with then the old bi-wire Monster MSeries M1.4 that I had (also free). As for the Audio-Magic... I went by the guys house with a friend (business trip in Denver) when he was buying something. We spent a few hours listening on the guys "test system". Call it whatever BS you want, but I've never heard sound act in a 3 dimensional way as it did in his system. Words cannot describe and I simply wouldn't ever think it was physically possible to experience what I did there. The guy's doing something right. Would I pay his prices? No. Did I think the weird little copper pyramids and crystals in the room were a bit much? Absolutely. Weird phosphorescent looking paint on all of his tubes? No idea... but I can't sit in a room of his creating for hours and call it bullshit either. On the most expensive systems I'd ever auditioned, nothing came close to touching this. I was given the RCAs later in exchange for some soldering services from my friend. I don't defend the weird wire obsession, but I think when a good deal could be had, why ignore it out of contempt?

I was called away from town for a few days so I'll be trying suggestions when I return home. I'll raise them up, move them out, cover windows, toe-in.... I'll kick my wife out of the house and just spend a day experimenting. I'll post back if I come up with any interesting improvements.
Still, most likely your poor methodology than any audible difference in wire, especially comparing two different types of connection like digital coax to an analog one, very likely the difference is merely a slight level difference (the biggest cause of much perceived "differences" where it makes no sense otherwise). It's really not worth spending time on comparisons like this at all, just buy adequate and well built wire/cables. Wire is the biggest bullshit item in audio.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I agree about room acoustics, just noting the expanses of glass. I'm a fan of heavy curtains in an audio space.

Those main speakers look small in that room to me, regardless of how they spec, and in spite of what current trends indicate to the contrary.. In that situation, I would set up the mains in a 2-channel stereo near field and work my way out from there, just to learn what the mains are capable of in that room, and how far, before they start petering out.
 
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