Speaker Manufacturers: ID vs B&M Who do you prefer

[admin]

When shopping loudspeakers do you prefer Internet Direct or traditional Brick&Mortar brands? We give you a tour of the pros/cons of each.

Discuss "Speaker Manufacturers: Internet Direct vs Brick and Mortar" here. Read the article.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There is a speaker for everyone. It does not matter one bit if it happens to be ID or BM or hybrid.

 

[JonnyFive23517]

I have always been a fan of the internet direct business model, so I support ID businesses whenever possible. I think an interesting study would be: given a fixed price for a pair of speakers where does the money you spent go? My guess would be that for ID brands, a significantly higher portion of the money goes into quality parts/product research whereas for B&M that same money gets sucked up in overhead for real estate, distribution, and salespeoples' salaries. But that's just my guess, based on my own ID experience within the reptile industry.

 

[Casey01]

ID vs B&M

One of the strengths of a B&M retailer pointed out in the comments is also one of its biggest weaknesses. Retailers usually sell many brands and from my own experience over the years they tend to formulate agendas whereby they will end up pushing certain brands over others because of discounts from the manufacturers and hence, because of this, generate larger profit margins in the process. There is also the issue of knowledge of the salesperson which more often then not, is quite lacking, especially, when it comes to objectivity in the eyes of the potential consumer.

For the above and many other logical reasons, it is no accident that more and more CE companies, especially with speakers, are going the ID route and as we can see, in recent years, because of it, much of the retail B&M business is in trouble. Like many others, I have listened to speakers in a store, taken them home, only to return them later because I didn't like the way they sounded. Many retailers normally won't even allow this to begin with and if they do, it is usually an exchange, not a money back set-up. ID companies usually have complete 30 day return policies which usually negates the issue of listening to the speakers before hand and even if one has to pay the return shipping, it is still more advantageous than being stuck with a product a buyer doesn't want.

There are many well established, quality companies out there that sell strictly the ID method and when it comes to a wide variety of choices, it really shouldn't even be an issue. Your ID buyer, especially in this case, is usually a better informed, more educated buyer anyway.

 

[SaviorMachine]

Wow, calling out Velodyne directly. Hm.

 

[cpp]

I don't care as long as the price is right, the dealer is an authorized dealer of the product and the warranty is valid and there is a 30 day return policy.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I normally like these AH articles, but I'm not understanding the tone or the point of this one. It seems more like a rant.

 

[KEW]

There <strike>is a speaker</strike> are lots of speakers for everyone.

Fixed it!

 

[fuzz092888]

There <strike style="color: rgb(62, 62, 62); font-style: italic; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); ">is a speaker</strike> lots of speaker for ME!! <strike style="color: rgb(62, 62, 62); font-style: italic; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); "></strike>

Fixed it!

Double fixed it

 

[Cliff_is]

I normally like these AH articles, but I'm not understanding the tone or the point of this one. It seems more like a rant.

We tried to stay out of it a bit, something we don't normally do, and just lay out some ideas rather than take a definitive side.

 

[KEW]

To me, there are some out-liars from both sides which represent exceptional value.

A B&M example is the A Jones Pioneer series 2 (I'm not sure an ID company can make and ship a decent floor-stander for the $100 that the FS52 typically goes for).

An ID example is the Philharmonic Audio 2's (and 3's).


Once we clear these "exceptional flukes" off of the table, I believe ID owns B&M at the mainstream $300/pr to $5000/pr range.

The equalizer is that you can sometimes find a good B&M product discounted to levels an ID company could not consider (60% - 80% off). An example is the Energy RC series that was on closeout via Vanns for a few years. IMHO, if you are paying close to retail for B&M, you are getting ripped off.

If anyone knows exceptions, please post!

 

[KEW]

Why is it that B&M cannot offer any competitive subs in the mainstream price range?

Again, you con find heavily discounted subs that are competitive.

 

[fuzz092888]

Why is it that B&M cannot offer any competitive subs in the mainstream price range?

Again, you con find heavily discounted subs that are competitive.

What would you consider the mainstream price range?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

KEW, Don't forget another side of ID out-liars, like Axiom audio...
and to add to B&M many harman products are very reasonably priced and are good value - Infinity/JBL Pro's/Revel

 

[KEW]

What would you consider the mainstream price range?

For subs, I would almost say ID beats B&M at any price.
However on the very low price end (~$100) ID loses competitive advantage because the shipping costs become a bigger percentage of the net cost and the required level of CS and return policies for ID to draw customers from B&M become expensive.

I don't know if the ultimate B&M sub beats the ultimate ID sub.

But to answer your question, I would consider mainstream pricing for a sub to be $300 to $2000.
In the $100 to $350 range, there is usually a heavily discounted B&M sub that beats ID (just because there are so many B&M subs at this price and there always seems to be one on clearance somewhere).

 

[Steve81]

Why is it that B&M cannot offer any competitive subs in the mainstream price range?

Couple thoughts:

1. They probably don't feel any pressing need to. I'd guess Polk sells more PSW10s than all the ID's sell subs combined.

2. Realities of the market. I remember years ago when I first received my first SVS, the entry level PB10-NSD; the thing was huge compared with anything I'd seen in a store at the time. Unfortunately, "big" doesn't tend to sell that well outside of the enthusiast market. Most people want something small (like the SB1000 type of small) and easily hidden, and that tends to hinder performance.

 

[fuzz092888]

Well I'll give an example and you can tell me if you think it's valid.

Source Technology is one of those hybrid businesses where they sell online, but also have a bit of dealer network. Being that they're somewhat small, at least compared to companies like Harman, it may not be a completley fair comparison, but they make subs in the price range you listed that I believe can compete with other ID subs, based on hearing them for myself and on theJman's review of one of their subs.

For subs, I would almost say ID beats B&M at any price.
However on the very low price end (~$100) ID loses competitive advantage because the shipping costs become a bigger percentage of the net cost and the required level of CS and return policies for ID to draw customers from B&M become expensive.

I don't know if the ultimate B&M sub beats the ultimate ID sub.

But to answer your question, I would consider mainstream pricing for a sub to be $300 to $2000.
In the $100 to $350 range, there is usually a heavily discounted B&M sub that beats ID (just because there are so many B&M subs at this price and there always seems to be one on clearance somewhere).

 

[gmichael]

If all the B&M and ID companies would just send me a pair of all of their speaker lines, I'll be happy to do a side by side by side by side....

 

[Irvrobinson]

For subs, I would almost say ID beats B&M at any price.
However on the very low price end (~$100) ID loses competitive advantage because the shipping costs become a bigger percentage of the net cost and the required level of CS and return policies for ID to draw customers from B&M become expensive.

I don't know if the ultimate B&M sub beats the ultimate ID sub.

I think this is a complicated question. ID subs specialize in decibels per dollar, and they do it by building large, heavy subs that are moderately well finished at low prices compared to B&M products, and that sweet spot is in the $750 to $2500 range. I'm throwing SVS, Hsu, Rythmik, Outlaw, and JTR into this category, I'm sure there are others. I would say that for the most part these are really enthusiast or, if I may use the term, audiophile products, not mainstream products. I think Steve81 is right on in saying that most people are not interested in a 140lb box in their living room, and that's the name of that tune, at least in the bottom three octaves.

At the high end of ID subs things are less clear. There's Funk. What else is there? Just as a SWAG, it wouldn't surprise me if the combined revenues of just the Velodyne DD-Plus line plus the JL Audio subs exceeded the combined revenues of the entire ID subwoofer industry. And that's just the high end. Most "real people" I know, in other words people who aren't audio enthusiasts, aren't even interested in separate subs, they want to buy HT solutions that include the mains, the sub, and the surrounds. And most high-end HT people I've run into don't even get involved with what the individual speakers are in their systems, they contract with an HT installer who chooses everything, and that market is what seems to be supporting what left of high-end audio stores. They've become high-end HT installers.

So I think what we're having here is a discussion about a small corner of the total market that only an enthusiast loves, and it takes a person with more passion than sense to compete in it.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Purchasing power and Increasing Returns to Scale in production trumps everything. Companies like Pioneer probably have achieved this, and is the single biggest reason why, even in a B&M setting with a middleman can offer such value that ID companies can't achieve at that spectrum.