speaker level crossover or high pass

[mike c]

hey guys,

where online can I get a speaker level crossover or high pass?

my setup:

suppose I have a full range signal on speaker wire going to the speakers, I want to take that wire, apply a high pass or crossover so that the speakers only play the high freqs. and the subwoofer plays the low freqs.

there is no speaker level out on the subwoofer.

 

[mtrycrafts]

hey guys,

where online can I get a speaker level crossover or high pass?

my setup:

suppose I have a full range signal on speaker wire going to the speakers, I want to take that wire, apply a high pass or crossover so that the speakers only play the high freqs. and the subwoofer plays the low freqs.

there is no speaker level out on the subwoofer.

What is feeding your sub? and speakers? Why is a receiver not good for this?
Or, what are you really after besides what you posted?

 

[mike c]

What is feeding your sub? and speakers? Why is a receiver not good for this?
Or, what are you really after besides what you posted?

i want to segregate each channel from the LFE subwoofer.

so if I use the receiver crossover, it will apply to all the channels AND will still send the low signals to a single LFE sub.

I want to set a 100hz crossover (therefore localizable) and put each sub near the speaker.

another option would be to use the built in crossover on the sub, but that would require 4 cables of coaxial going to and from the subwoofer of about 40 ft. each. if I can crossover on the spot, there wouldn't be a million wires running around.

 

[mike c]

btw, mtrycrafts ... are you aware of how low of a frequency mixers send to the fronts? surrounds?

 

[avaserfi]

Have you thought about removing the passive crossover system within your speakers, going full active, and getting a Behringer DCX2496?

Since you already have most of the necessary amplification (I think) you wouldn't have too much of an expense and this would let you do exactly as you speak along side equalizing your system.

It is a little bit of work, but will give you tons of flexibility . Also, if you wanted you could just set up the Behringer DCX2496 to have the exact same crossover point as the passive system, but include the addition of the new low end units.

 

[WmAx]

Have you thought about removing the passive crossover system within your speakers, going full active, and getting a Behringer DCX2496?

This is not as easy as you make it sound.

To do this requires accurate measurement (which assumes the required equipment is available and it is known how to properly use said equipment) of the original crossover acoustical behaviour for each driver independently on the network, then replication of these curves via active DSP xover.

-Chris

 

[avaserfi]

This is not as easy as you make it sound.

To do this requires accurate measurement (which assumes the required equipment is available and it is known how to properly use said equipment) of the original crossover acoustical behaviour for each driver independently on the network, then replication of these curves via active DSP xover.

-Chris

I knew it would be a pain, but didn't realize quiet how large a pain. Are there any easier options you know of?

 

[annunaki]

How will you be running the setup? Using a single receiver and running to each speaker from the speaker outputs, then running from the sub output to all the subs? I see your dilemma if this is the scenario, however it is your best bet. This allows the best setup.

In having outboard amplifier for each channel it would be done differently. Running from the individual rca channel outputs would require each channel to be powered with a separate amplifier (as suggested). You could use a "Y" adapter to split the signal to the sub and an F-mod high pass x-over on each channel or the speaker amplifier. All channels would be set as full range.

Are you using 5 subs with each of the speakers? If not, there are much simpler solutions.

 

[mike c]

my first setup was:

receiver - 30 feet of coaxial cable - amps - short speaker wire to each speaker

that would have been an easy setup to use the internal subs crossover (using rca ins and outs)

I changed the setup to eliminate probable interference between the long coaxial wire and power cables.

so now it is:

receiver - short coax - amp - long speaker wire

I want to use a separate subwoofer for EACH front channel. (or at least two)
if i re-wire the coax, that would expose me to "probable" interference.

if I were to plug the subs to the speaker level ins only, and the fronts were still given a full range signal (absence of cx), that would negate the advantage of having a subwoofer.

i know low freqs. are not localizable, but I want to experiment on letting the subwoofers produce around 100hz or slightly above that. someone said that some "chest thump" also comes from the 100hz range, if my receiver crossovers at 80, that leaves my fronts to try and produce 100hz - it might be possible that the subs are more efficient than the built in woofers of my fronts.

 

[annunaki]

Assuming the use of a decent cable, I would use long runs of speaker wire to the speakers and use the coax to each sub. You alredy have the long runs of coax to try it with. If there is no audible interference then the problem is solved.

I would do:

Receiver-short coax-amps-long speaker wires
Receiver-long coax-subs

It gives the best compromise.

 

[mike c]

annunaki, so the mains will be playing ful range?

 

[mike c]

in my quest for the elusive chest thump:

I have tried bigger and bigger subwoofers.
I have tried nearfield subwoofers.
I have tried boosting different freqs.
I have tried calibrating the sub hot.

one of the last few things I haven't tried is:
stereo subs crossed around 100hz. (someone told me "some" chest thump can be found around 100hz - which my mains are currently trying to produce)

a supporting theory would be, if you look at the bass boosts in many many pre-amps/receivers/int. amps, most of them center around 100hz.

I have dual 8 inch woofers from the mains, but I'm thinking, surely a subwoofer can do better.

I have these options:
DUAL DLS-4000R or DLS03750R for the left and right speakers. these have speaker level outputs that can be crossed over at 100hz. yay. but these will cost me more money than option 2.

or

I can get another DLS-5000R, cheaper option for me, better looking - having dual 15's up front ... BUT this model doesn't have speaker level outs. I can either hook these up in series with the mains (mains full range, sub 100hz down) or get an external crossover to put in between the amps and sub coaxial cables like annunaki suggested.

 

[annunaki]

annunaki, so the mains will be playing ful range?

No, you would still have to use the LFE output from the amplifier, it would just have to be split to all the subs. If you want true full range at each channel L, C, R, LR, RR, SBL, SBR you will need a high pass crossover on each amplifier for each channel and use the sub's crossover to lowpass. In that case you would 'Y" the output from each channel of the 8 channel output (with the exception of the LFE). You would set all speakers to large.

OR, you could just get a two way crossover for each channel, run the highpass output (from the crossover) to the amps and run the lowpass to each sub via long coax. You would only need to do this of course for the channels with subs. Most recivers allow individual channels to be set as small or large. You would simply set the speakers with subs to large the rest would be small.

DOes your room have a null in the 200hz-60hz range? Perhaps this is the lack of your "chest thump" you are after? Using an extensive EQ for your system would fully allow control of the sound. Using a Behringer DCX2496 for each channel would work but would be quite expensive.

 

[mike c]

annunaki,

you are correct, I will just use an external crossover to highpass the main L and R ... that and the 15"er is still cheaper than two 12's.

what about a behringer cx2310 crossover instead of the more expensive dcx2496 ... what can the dcx2496 do better than an ordinary 2310? it looks more complicated though. I see 3 inputs on it, can it do 3 channels? or do I really need 1 per channel?

I have an SMS-1 to monitor bass frequencies, and there is no dip, except maybe in the cx freq. which I promptly boosted (80hz, no more than 4-5db)
sometimes after calibrating the channels, I go back to the EQ to remove the cuts I made 60hz up. (I left them peaky)

thanks!

 

[annunaki]

annunaki,

you are correct, I will just use an external crossover to highpass the main L and R ... that and the 15"er is still cheaper than two 12's.

what about a behringer cx2310 crossover instead of the more expensive dcx2496 ... what can the dcx2496 do better than an ordinary 2310? it looks more complicated though. I see 3 inputs on it, can it do 3 channels? or do I really need 1 per channel?

I have an SMS-1 to monitor bass frequencies, and there is no dip, except maybe in the cx freq. which I promptly boosted (80hz, no more than 4-5db)
sometimes after calibrating the channels, I go back to the EQ to remove the cuts I made 60hz up. (I left them peaky)

thanks!

The DCX2496 can be set up as a two or three way crossover with programmable slopes from -18db/oct.-48db/oct. allowing a very nice transition from the speaker to the sub. It also has some eq capablity as well. If you already have an eq then perhaps the cheaper crossover is a better option for you. How many subs will you be running? Are they located right next to the speakers?

 

[mike c]

if I do stereo subs, the subs will most definitely be beside the speakers.

I managed to squeeze in 20 mins. in the HT yesterday away from baby duties ... at this rate, I'll have one of the options wired by next year

thanks Annunaki

 

[annunaki]

If you are just doing the mains with subs, definitely set the center and rears to small and leave the mains as large. Get a couple two way crossovers Or one stereo two way crossover. Receiver L/R outputs-> Short coax-> Crossover main inputs-> Highpass outputs-> Short Cable-> Main amplifier inputs-> Long speaker cables-> Speakers

Crossover Lowpass outputs-> Short Coax-> SMS-1-> Long Coax-> "Y" adaptor-> Subwoofer inputs

Using the SMS-1 may not benefit you though for a true "stereo sub" setup unless it allows stereo L/R inputs.

When there are kids around at a young age it is tough to have time to play with the toys. I know the feeling.

 

[3db]

Maybe I'm missing the boat or I'min drydock on this one

i want to segregate each channel from the LFE subwoofer.

so if I use the receiver crossover, it will apply to all the channels AND will still send the low signals to a single LFE sub.

I want to set a 100hz crossover (therefore localizable) and put each sub near the speaker.

another option would be to use the built in crossover on the sub, but that would require 4 cables of coaxial going to and from the subwoofer of about 40 ft. each. if I can crossover on the spot, there wouldn't be a million wires running around.

but I was under the impression that the sub provided a high pass filter on its speaker level outputs. My approach would have been connecting the speaker wire from the amp to the speaker in of the sub, connect the speaker out of the sub to the speaker input of your man speaker and the sub's filter control would act as a high pass filter in this configuration passing the high frequencies to its speaker outputs

http://www.psbspeakers.com/Images/Speakers/Subwoofers/sub5i_back.jpg

 

[annunaki]

If the sub has dedicated speaker ins and outs that should work as well. However, most highpass x-overs in subs have a fixed 6db/oct. 12db/oct. slope ususally set at 80hz. Using an outboard x-over allows more precise fine tuning with the x-over point. Crossover points and slopes can have a big impact on sound.

 

[mike c]

but I was under the impression that the sub provided a high pass filter on its speaker level outputs. My approach would have been connecting the speaker wire from the amp to the speaker in of the sub, connect the speaker out of the sub to the speaker input of your man speaker and the sub's filter control would act as a high pass filter in this configuration passing the high frequencies to its speaker outputs

http://www.psbspeakers.com/Images/Speakers/Subwoofers/sub5i_back.jpg

you are correct, all the DLS-R models EXCEPT for the 5000R have highpassed speaker level outs. alas, my 5000R's only have line level outputs. there are power lines running parallel to the wires I'd like to avoid, it would seem that speaker wires are less affected by interference than the coaxial cables.

wanna see my setup?
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23497&page=10