Speaker Guidance Thread - Need Recommendations for New Home Theater

[Rob from NJ]

FirstReflection,
pictures of my basement:











1. 1st picture is upon entrance to the basement and shows the 27 foot width of the basement.
You could see the tiles from the drop down ceiling. My plan is to replace the tiles with either insulated tiles and/or insulation + new tiles. For various reasons, my wife does not want to drywall the ceiling with QuietWall.

2. 2nd picture shows the length of the basement from the far wall to my current HT setup, next to the door leading to the backroom.

3. 3rd picture is a close-up (or closer up) showing my projection TV + current DefTech monitor fronts and Pro1000 subwoofer.

4. 4th picture is an angle from the front wall of current HT setup to the wall I'm considering for my new setup (The far wall is 13 feet long). I'm planning on a 100" screen with projector mounted. Once again this is the length of the basement (25 ft.).

5. 5th picture is simply an angle in the middle of the current HT setup and the couch, showing the room diagonally. Yes, the poles are a pain in the neck to work around, however, that's the design of this basement.

Hope this helps. Once again thanks, for the advice on looking at RBHs and Magnepan. Magnepan will be easy as a number of audio shops carry the brand. RBH will be much more difficult. I rememeber looking for an RBH monitor system when I purchased my DefTechs. No RBH dealer in my area was showing their speakers.

 

[FirstReflection]

OK! Great to have the photos.

Sorry to say first thing, but that is definitely a challenging room. I doubt you'd go for building an actual enclosed space within that basement It could be done, and it could be a nice, cozy size for a small, totally dedicated theater of around 13' x 18' or so, but I get the sense that's not really what you have in mind.

So you've got the louvred door as the entrance to the utility room in the back (behind where you currently have your TV). Unfortunately, by code, the door to the furnace room has to be louvred, so there isn't a heck of a lot that you can do about the sound escaping from that back room into your large basement space. In other words, if you want good isolation from that noise within your theater, you'd pretty much have to build a dedicated theater room within the larger space. There's no real way to block the noise coming from the back room.

What you can do though is move your theater area further away from that louvred door and back room. It's not much, but it's a bit of a help at least.

I'm assuming the two doors on the opposite side from where the TV and louvred door are lead to the bathroom and bedroom? You could certainly do some extra soundproofing on the party wall between the large basement space and those two rooms. Solid core doors - or better yet, exterior doors with a sealed jam - and a layer of Green Glue and 5/8" drywall over the existing drywall will add damping and mass to that wall to help reduce sound transmission. But you were saying that in a year's time or so, you won't have anyone living down there anymore and that keeping those rooms quiet won't be as big a priority, so I don't know if soundproofing that wall would be of any benefit to you.

The dropped ceiling is a fairly easy fix. You can simply use acoustic tiles to help block some of the sound travelling upstairs. Since it's a drop ceiling, you have easy access to the ducts and pipes running through the entire ceiling space. You should consider damping them with something like QuietCoat so that they won't carry the sound upstairs quite as much.

In terms of layout, you are definitely limited by the way the walls are laid out as well as all those cladded jack posts. To be honest, the best layout I could come up with that uses the exact room that you have now with no additional construction or changes would be as follows:

I'd go with a corner setup with the display straddling the corner formed by the 27' wall shown in photo #1 and the 13' wall that would be on the right hand side in photo #1. So you were saying that you were thinking of moving your setup to put the display on that 13' wall. My idea is similar, but with a corner diagonal arrangement, rather than a traditional arrangement with everything parallel and perpendicular to the walls. Take your idea for the 13' wall placement and rotate everything 45 degrees to the left

No you can heavily treat the corner that would be behind your corner-straddling screen with thick bass trapping. And place absorption on the 13' wall and mirror that absorption on the 27' wall. You can use the Acoustimac or GiK "Art" panels to make it look really nice

Your seating is now going to be diagonal as well so that you are facing straight at the display. The right hand side of the seating would basically be somewhere quite close to the support post that's on the right in photo #5.

As much as I love front projection, I think you could actually do quite well in this space with something right around a 10-12 foot viewing distance, which would make a 70-80" screen size ideal. That makes Sharp's 70" and 80" LCD displays a real option. The reason I bring it up is because if you keep the space open, it's likely there will be times when you want to watch something, but someone else wants to use the rest of the space for something else. With a front projector, you'd need the entire basement to be as dark and close to pitch black as possible for the best image. With an LCD, you can have the lights on and still enjoy a good picture

Honestly, I'd really need to know just how much renovation you'd be willing to consider. If building a new, enclosed space is an option, then a whole lot of possibilities for better performance open up. If you're basically keeping the basement as is, then I think this corner arrangement is about as good as it's gonna get.

Bass performance is going to be a real challenge. I would actually suggest that you go for something like HSU's mid-bass module + deep bass subwoofer split system. The idea being that you can place the mid-bass module very close to your seat so that you get all of the tactile impact without needing to turn up the volume very high. And then you'd have a larger subwoofer dedicated to only the deepest bass that you could place along a wall or in the corner to fill in the lowest octave.

Overall, unless you're willing to do a more serious build and renovation, I can see how you'll most likely need to be able to keep the volume level fairly low to avoid bothering the rest of the house. It's a pretty seriously compromised setup, but such is life Planar speakers certainly make sense in this type of situation. The much larger surface area for launching the soundwaves means that the amplitude of the waves does not need to be as great in order for you to still hear all of the detail. This is what gives planar speakers their characteristic sound quality - very little movement of the surface that's creating the sound waves, but a large surface area. So speakers like the Martin Logans, Magnepans or Philharmonics do make a lot of sense. Combine any of those with a HSU mid-bass module and a deep bass sub - I'd actually highly recommend a cylinder SVS sub in your case since you could easily place it behind the display in the corner with the corner setup or lay it on its side to have it laying along the 27" wall. While your room size would normally call for the PC13-Ultra or the PC12-Plus at the very least, the fact that you'll likely be keeping the volume low means that the less expensive PC12-NSD will likely work well for you. One additional benefit of the PC12-NSD in your particular case is that it really drops off very, very steeply below 20Hz, which means that you won't get much of anything in the way of room gain of the subsonic bass that can easily travel through your house's structure and rattle walls upstairs. You'll still need to be mindful of everything 20Hz and above, of course, but you will eliminate the subsonic variable with the PC12-NSD. The PC12-NSD is also "unbreakable". So if you do happen to crank the volume, the worst you'll get is the limiter light lighting up on the sub. The sub will never bottom out, go into crazy high distortion or damage itself in any way. So it's a pretty good fit for your particular case. Not the norm for what I would recommend in this size of a room. But the right mix of features for your case in particular

 

[Rob from NJ]

FirstReflection,

First and most important, thank you for all your help, effort and time, brainstorming ideas for my basement. You've provided a tremendous amount of knowledge, as well as, many ideas for me to think about.

I'm in process of digesting your last post and will get back to you by tomorrow. My work blocks me from logging onto this site, thus, all my posts occur during the evenings and weekends.

Unfortunately, as much as I want to block off a dedicated room in the basement for the HT, my wife has other priorities, even though she's good with allowing me to make the most of the current situation (i.e. accoustical panels, retiling of ceiling, new carpet and couches, video and stereo equipment).

My one question about room layout. If my TV setup was against the 13 foot wall, instead of the corner diagonal arrangement, how does that affect the following:
1. Placement of accoustical panels (bass trap, reflective absorbing panels)
2. Does dipole, planer speakers still work noting that placement of speakers 4-5 feet away from the walls will be much easier to achieve compared to the corner diagonal arrangement.
3. Ideas for where to position a mid bass subwoofer and a low bass subwoofer. I can still position a subwoofer against the corner walls (13 foot wall interesting with the 25 foot wall).

When I respond tomorrow, I have some additional questions about use of dipole vs. bipole vs. front firing speakers for my basement.

Once again, I really appreciate all your help and if your from my neck of the woods or visiting NYC/NJ at any time, let me know and we can connect.

 

[FirstReflection]

No problem! Happy to help if I can

When it comes to di-pole or bi-pole front speakers, it is very much a matter of personal taste. With a traditional front-firing mono-pole speaker, the general idea is to have the direct soundwaves (the waves that travel directly through the air from the moving drivers of the speaker to your ears) be overwhelmingly louder than any reflected waves (the waves that travel from the moving drivers of the speaker to a wall, ceiling, floor or other surface and then bounce off of that surface before reaching your ears).

In general, we do not want ALL of the reflected soundwaves to completely disappear. That would be anechoic (completely free of anything other than direct soundwaves). We use reflected sound waves to get a sense of our bearings. We become disoriented and have a sense of great uneasiness in a truly anechoic environment. For one thing, it feels as though our ears need to "pop" but they never can. More than that, it's an evolutionary precaution - a complete lack of reflected sound means we're totally exposed with no cover or protection anywhere close to us. So it makes sense that we do NOT want an anechoic environment. But when it comes to being able to pick out subtle details in sounds and being able to delineate between sounds that are similar, we need for the direct sound to be overwhelmingly louder than the reflections.

So this is why, if you go into any recording or mixing studio, what you will find the sound engineer or mixer using are direct-firing monopole speakers, placed close to the listening position (usually a mere 1-3 feet away), and the room itself is quite heavily treated with bass traps and absorptive panels on all surfaces. In many respects, it's actually quite similar to wearing headphones! The speakers are very close to the listener's ears and there is very little other than the direct sound being heard.

But a mixing or recording studio is a place for work, not a place for recreation or enjoyment. Professionals are trying to hear every minute detail, they aren't necessarily just listening for pleasure.

So when we bring a recording into a normal room and just listen to it for enjoyment, things change. If we hear nothing but the direct sound - sure, we can pick out all the detail - but it also feels more analytic and sterile. When we have more of the room's reflections reaching our ears, it sounds more "natural". More "in the room". More "live" in some sense.

And here is where the recording technique can diverge as well. Some recordings are made using close-mic techniques and eliminate almost all sound except for the individual instruments and voices. Play these back with only direct sound and they sound extremely clear and precise, but also unnatural and a bit strange because there are no ambient cues to clue you in about the space in which the recording was being made. They are just disembodied voices and sounds that come from "nowhere". So if you have more reflections in your listening room, now those voices and instruments give the illusion of being right there in front of you! In the room with you. Playing a private concert directly in front of your seat.

On the other hand, some recordings are made with a lot of ambient sound cues mixed in. For example, maybe a live concert recorded in an auditorium or a church or a live stage concert. Play these recordings back with only direct sound and you create the illusion of being in a totally different space! Now YOU are "transported" into that auditorium or church, or you're now AT that live concert, somewhere in front of the stage. This is the "the walls melted away and I was transported to another place" sort of effect. But it's up to the recording, not the speakers. If you have a lot of reflections in your listening room with this sort of recording, now the sound cues become confusing. You're getting direct sound cues telling you you're in some other auditorium, but you're getting reflected sound cues telling you you're in your regular room. This can make the recording setting seem nondescript and "fuzzy".

So the choice of speakers and the extent to which you take your room "out of the equation" with room treatments has a lot to do with what you listen to! If you want to bring voices "into your room with you", you want more reflections to give you spatial cues - which is where di-pole or bi-pole speakers shine since they cast sound in a full 360 degree field and create lots of reflections. And you'd also want fewer room treatments - perhaps just bass traps to quell the worst room nodes and perhaps more diffusion than absorption to "scatter" the sound and make the room seem acoustically larger to avoid any sense of being "boxed in" by the walls of your room.

On the other hand, if you want to be "transported" to some other place, then you want direct speakers and lots of absorption in your room. You want almost all of the sound cues to come directly from the speakers themselves. And you want recordings that include their own spatial cues so that they tell YOU where you are. Given that you mostly watch movies with this system, this is what you'd be after. Movies include lots of spatial sound cues to match the settings that are being shown to you on screen. And naturally, the idea with a movie is to "transport" YOU someplace else, not to shrink down every setting and bring them into your room! With movies, you usually want "the walls to melt away". And that means taking the reflections out of the equation and having the direct sound tell your ears where you are

So what you want to do with a movie room is to heavily absorb sound that would reflect off of the front wall (the wall where the TV is). You don't want the back wave from the speakers to define where that wall exists. If you're looking at an image on screen that reaches way back into the distance, you want the sound to be able to tell you that there is lots and lots of space in front of you. If the front wall is there sonically, this will clash with the image.

Similarly, you want the side walls to basically not exist sonically. Get rid of those reflections and your walls "melt away" and allow you to be "transported" where ever the direct sound from your speakers tells your ears to go!

And directly behind your seat too. You want the sound to "wash over you" and then "disappear" behind you. You don't want your ears alerting you that there's a wall behind you. Especially if the image on screen says there's nothing but open space back there!

The surround effects are meant to envelop you and be non-directional. This is why di-pole or bi-pole speakers are often used for surround speakers. They better mimick the multiple surround speakers that you'd find in a commercial movie theater. In order to scatter their sound and make them really diffuse, you want to treat the back portion of your home theater with diffusion - save for the spots directly behind seats where you want strong absorption.

So regardless of how you position your TV, speakers and seat, that would be the basic idea. The "diagonal corner" setup works better in a room like yours because you get a more symmetrical layout for your front soundstage. There will still be some reflections - you're not creating an anechoic setting - so having a wall close to the speakers on one side and much, much further away on the opposite side (as would happen with a "straight on" layout along that 13' wall) will create some unbalanced sound cues. The only real downside is that your brain will know that the close wall on the left is there. It's not the end of the world, and having lots of absorption on that wall would reduce this effect. But the symmetrical layout of a diagonal corner placement would be slightly better is all

 

[Rob from NJ]

Your information provides me with so much to think about.

I find myself conflicted with speaker technology more suited for movies to capture recordings as you described and transport you to the movie (within a listening environment treated with acoustic panels/bass traps to make the walls disappear) vs. speakers that will transport the singer/band to your room such as a dipole/bipole technology.

A lot of my conflict early in my process is due to the fact that I’m a movie watcher that is not after high volume with sound that can travel large distances in order to achieve clear and detailed dialogue along with good dynamics of switching sound to action scenes and switching sound to the subtleties contained in quiet scenes. My objective is to achieve clear/detailed dialogue, as well as, good dynamics at reasonable volume levels, possibly with the power to go a little further when I’m playing around.

I went to the Magnolia store this weekend and listened to the B&W CM9s and re-listened to the Def. Tech BP ST (8060). Understanding the listening environment is not good and very different than my home, one speaker appeared decent with music and not so good with movies and the other speaker appeared very good for movies due to its dynamics, and not good for music. Of course, this is my opinion based on listening in the Magnolia environment.

Without even listening to the following speakers, I have a pre-conceived bias that these high frequency brand of speakers probably do real well for movies – JTR, CHT, AT, M&K, Atom, Triad, etc.. However, my concern is do you need to crank the volume levels, in order to achieve dynamics and clear/detailed dialogue? Can you achieve my objectives with these high frequency speakers listening at lower levels or do these speakers simply need to scream for the movie soundtrack to be good? Or is this all about the bass to create the dynamics and purchasing a clear and detailed speaker that can also do well with music?
On the flip side these speaker brands are probably more suited for 2.1 music or even 2.0 music, including the dipole and planer technology, such as Martin Logan, Philharmonic and directs such as Salk ST, Ascend, B&W, etc. My concern is, with with these speakers in order to achieve the dynamics necessary to make movies great do I have to significantly invest in high end drivers or do I live with consistent sound levels (anemic dynamics).

As you’ve pointed out a direct firing speaker is typically better for movies, however, based on the speaker having to be louder in order to create sound waves directed at the listener. So back to dipole planer speakers if you dampen parts of the front wall, that the speaker is setup near, do you not defeat the purpose of using a dipole, planer speaker which needs the reflection of the front wall to bounce off of? It appears that dampening acoustics contradicts with the use of dipole, planer speakers because it results in less reflective surfaces to create an airy and spacious sound (In relation to listening to movies). In addition, to your point, it appears that the dipole speaker is just not the right speaker to take you inside the movies, meaning is it possible my objective of listening at low to moderate levels is even realistic for good movie conditions?

 

[FirstReflection]

Hi, Rob

Well, you're battling a few things and trying to find the right balance.

First up, you have to consider the source. Movies are mixed with the idea that they will be played back quite loud. As mentioned, "reference volume" is 85dB with 105dB peaks in the speakers and 115dB peaks in the LFE! The reason 85dB is chosen as "reference volume" is because that is the volume level at which our human hearing is the most linear. When we hear sounds that are equal in measured SPL, we do not perceive them as all being equally loud. We are better able to hear the midrange (where the human voice lies - makes sense ) and we do not hear bass or really high frequencies very well. But at 85dB, we perceive almost the full audible range as being pretty much equal in loudness. So a 40Hz tone played at 85dB sounds to us to be pretty much equally as loud as a 2000Hz tone also played at 85dB, whereas the same 40Hz tone played at 75dB sounds, to us, much quieter than a 2000Hz tone played at 75dB, even though they are technically equally as loud!

So when you turn down the playback level of a movie to below "reference volume", the whole soundtrack gets quieter equally, but because our hearing is not linear, we basically lose the high highs and the low lows. And that is where these "Dynamic EQ" and "Dynamic Volume" and "Dolby Volume" etc. come into play. These programs make the lows and highs louder when you turn down the volume as a whole so that those frequencies sound, to us, to be equally as loud as the midrange once again. Those programs also compress the dynamic range so that explosions and big crescendos are no longer up to 20dB louder than the average playback level. So basically, everything gets evened out.

Being able to clearly understand the dialogue is a different matter entirely. Most of the time, if the dialogue does not sound clear, it is due to one or a combination of three things:

1) the speaker itself (typically, the center speaker)
2) the placement of the speaker
3) the room acoustics

If the speaker itself is distorting or has a recessed midrange, you can lose vocal clarity. Having a recessed midrange is more common than one might expect. Manufacturers will often cross the tweeter over to the woofer somewhere in the range of 2000-4000Hz and if that cross-over is not done perfectly, you can get a dip in the frequency response where the drivers cross over. You'll also see a lot of center speakers that have a tweeter in between two woofers, which can be a real problem if you sit to either side of dead center. Again, where the tweeter and those woofers are crossing over, you will get cancellations since you have more than one driver playing the same frequencies. So when you are looking for a center speaker and you want clear dialogue, it's often smart to look for a center that has a dedicated mid-range driver. One that handles the frequencies from about 200Hz to about 3000Hz by itself. This will help to ensure that you are not getting cancellations in the midrange from the speaker itself. That midrange driver though should be more or less self contained and dedicated to the midrange frequencies. Axiom, just as an example, uses a midrange driver in some of their speakers, but they run that midrange driver without a high-pass filter on the low end, so it is trying to play the bass as well, which can stress that driver and cause it to produce distortion. So basically, you just have to be cautious. Look for a speaker that uses a dedicated midrange driver and look at the specs to make sure it is basically self-contained and uses filters on both its bottom end and its top end so that it is only trying to play the midrange frequencies to which it is suited.

Next up is placement. Many people put the center speaker directly on a TV stand, equipment stand or a table. Doing so will amplify the lower midrange due to having a boundary so close to the speaker. Many professional monitors include an EQ adjustment knob so that you can even out this lower midrange amplification, but extremely few consumer speakers include such adjustment options. The amplification of the lower midrange can add a "cupping" effect to voices - as though the person has their hands cupped around their mouth while they are talking or singing.

Finally, you've got the room acoustics, which are very often the problem. You might not realize it, but in your setup right now, the way you have it in your photos, you've got a lot of strong reflections that are contributing to making the dialogue difficult to understand. You've got that bare wall on the right, you've got the wall behind the TV (and the TV itself, which essentially acts as a wall acoustically), plus the speaker itself has that woofer-tweeter-woofer design. What usually gets the message across to people though is to simply have a real, live person stand and talk in the room. Then put up a few acoustic panels on the wall behind them and the side walls and have them talk again. There can be a dramatic difference and improvement in how well you are able to understand them! The speakers are very much the same idea. Help them out with some well placed acoustic panels and there can be a dramatic difference in how clear the midrange sounds.

Also note that putting up those acoustic panels only helps you to hear the real, live person who is speaking or singing in your room. You'll get the same effect with di-pole or bi-pole speakers. Reducing the reflections does not render the di-pole or bi-pole radiation pattern useless or ineffective. It simply takes some of the "bad" reflections - the ones that "muddy" the sound and make dialogue difficult to understand - out of the equation and gives you clearer sound. The real, live person still sounds like they are "in the room" with you. They just sound more "focused" and easier to understand. Same thing will happen with planar di-pole speakers

 

[Rob from NJ]

FirstReflection,

Thanks for all the information.

Did some comparisons between corner diagonal layout and 13 foot wall layout. Wife likes HT on the 13 ft. wall. However, we also discussed putting a rail in the ceiling (if possible) and hanging a curtain that goes around to close off the HT area from the rest of the room. Not an enclosed space with a wall, however, the curtain should dampen sound and be a good, workable (or compromising) solution.

Other areas discussed:
- New tiles for the ceiling with appropriate NRC & CAC numbers for sound absorption and containment
- 2 Acoustic Art Panels for the front wall (13 ft. wall) and 3 Panels for the side 27 ft. wall
- A minimum of 1 bass trap for the corner of the 13 ft. wall and 27 ft. wall. May plan on a second bass trap.
- Placing a bookshelf (furniture piece) in the corner back wall (where current subwoofer is)

Back to Speakers Questions: For Movies (my primary focus here), your thoughts on a high efficient, higher frequency (or should I say a lower bottom frequency range) speaker system (i.e. front speakers of JTR Triple8s, or CHT Sho-10 or eD Cinema 12) combined with a HSU mid-bass subwoofer and a SVS PC12-NSD for low bass (or as an alternative HSU VFT-15H subwoofer). Are these speakers overkill at volumes listened to at less than reference level, however, noting that peaks in movie soundtracks will go to reference level?
Also, is it ok to mix subwoofer brands - HSU mid-bass and SVS subwoofer just an example?

 

[FirstReflection]

I like your plan for adding sound rated ceiling tiles, bass traps and absorption panels I do think the "Art" Panels are a fantastic way to really up the WAF If she already wanted pictures, photos or posters on the walls, there's nothing better than getting better acoustics at the same time!

Acoustimac's prices for printed panels are a bit lower than GiK's. Acoustimac also offers a greater number of panel sizes as well as printed bass traps, so they're likely your best bet. GiK can do custom sizes though, so there's no harm in checking with both companies and seeing who can give you the best price for the panels you need

Adding the curtain won't do much acoustically. You'll get a little bit of high frequency attenuation, but that's about it. If you get nice drapes with blackout backing, that could help your lighting situation quite a bit if you still want to use a front projection setup though. Either way, the curtain is fine and a nice way to section off the theater without building an actual wall! But just don't expect it to really affect the acoustics too much. It won't do anything at all to the bass and higher frequencies will only be attenuated somewhat.

Given what you've described about what you want from your speakers, the ones you just mentioned - like the JTR or eD Cinema speakers don't really make any sense for your particular desires. Those designs are pretty much all about being able to play as LOUD as possible. You've said many times that what you want are quieter playback levels without any loss of detail. That's not the strength of super high efficiency speakers with horn loaded tweeters or compression drivers with massive excursion. Those speakers are all about playing LOUD.

To be honest, I believe what's going to be the most satisfying to you will be ribbon or planar-based speakers. The strength of these types of speakers is having utterly fantastic transient response - where there is virtually no decay time from when the signal stops to when the transducer stops moving. That superb transient response means you can play them at quieter output levels without losing any detail. Normal dome driver speakers have longer decay times, which means that at low output levels, you're hearing every sound "ringing" for a longer length of time. The impulse for the sound goes out, the signal tells the transducer to stop moving, but some sound keeps "ringing" for a short amount of time. With the ribbon instead of the dome, there's no "ringing". So all you get is the impulse of the original sound and then almost dead silence after it right away. When you are playing things quietly, this allows you to retain and hear all the detail. You don't have that "ringing" carrying on at a louder volume to "smear" the notes or voices at all. Just crisp, clear impulses followed almost immediately by silence, so it's much easier to hear details at quieter playback levels.

The problem with most ribbons is that they have a very narrow "sweet spot", so you have to aim them, hold your head still and be right in their path to get the best sound. That's most ribbons though, not all ribbons!

To be honest, I think a great candidate for you would be the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower speakers with the RAAL tweeter upgrade. And the VERY good news is that Ascend also has a quite new, matching Sierra Tower Center speaker so you can get a front 3 speaker match for movies!

With the upgraded RAAL ribbon tweeters, the Ascend Sierra Tower speakers are more expensive, but still in the same general price range as the other speakers you've been looking at. And let me tell you, they are an absolute STEAL at Ascend's price point. These are easily - EASILY - $5000+ speakers in a store. Probably a lot more considering the cost of the solid bamboo cabinets, which are just awesome in every way.

What you'd be getting with the Ascend Sierra Tower + STC (Sierra Tower Center) speakers with the RAAL tweeter upgrade is basically a perfectly blended combination of everything we've been talking about. You get the RAAL tweeter, which is one of the rare tweeters that has better off-axis and polar response than most dome tweeters. That means superb detail at quiet playback levels. A great sense of music and voices being "in the room" with you thanks to the superb polar response. The absence of a fully di-pole radiation pattern so that movies can still "transport you" to a different space. The Sierra Tower midrange driver is fully independant as I described earlier. A great design that isolates the critical midrange driver and allows it to seemlessly blend with the bass and treble without over taxing the driver or having it overlap and cause cancellations with either the tweeter or bass drivers. And the cabinet. Oh the cabinet. You will not find a more inert, amazing cabinet anywhere! Seriously, the cabinets would be $2000 a piece on their own anywhere else. Probably more.

Ascend does offer full 30-day money back trials - although you do have to pay for shipping both ways, so it's not a free trial Dave F is an absolutely wonderful guy to talk to though. Really, really knows everything about speaker design and just wants to make the best speakers he possibly can.

It also just so happens that Ascend is partnered up with Rythmik and sells their subwoofers too. If you're buying from Ascend, you can actually get a bit of a discount on a Rythmik subwoofer from them as well, so it's really the perfect solution for you. Since this is mostly a movie system and you have a large room, I'd point you towards one of the vented Rythmik subs. I'd go for the FV15HP myself in your room size, but since you mostly keep things quiet, the FV15 is probably fine

Rythmik's subs are easily among the best in terms of tight transient response. They are "musical" subs because of that. No "mushy" bass or bloated rumbles. They are a great match for Ascend's Sierra speakers.

If you decide that you want more "hit you in the chest" tactile impact, then adding an HSU MBM-12 mid-bass module right behind your seat is a good way to go when you want to keep the overall volume level on the quieter side. There is absolutely nothing wrong with mixing brands. Every speaker has a job to do and it doesn't matter what brand of speaker is doing each job, just that the job is done well and properly and is a perfect sonic match to the other speakers

 

[Rob from NJ]

Great post,

I have a huge interest in the Ascend Acoustics Sierras and have read nothing but glowing information about these speakers.

This is where I struggle:

My Objectives for HT (Summarized and all important):
1. Dialog easy to follow at any volume. Since the center channel speaker will be doing the bulk of the work for dialog, I fully understand its importance
2. Sounds soft/low when they’re supposed to be (soft sound being clear and easy to follow)
3. Sounds louder when called for based on the movie soundtrack, noting that louder scenes need to be clean (no distortion) and not cause discomfort

As I do more reading, I'm questioning my original theory of a great speaker for music and sound quality being the right choice for HT. As you’ve pointed out a compressed recording for music is different than a movie soundtrack. It makes common sense that when a speaker is designed, the designer has certain objectives, as well as, tradeoffs that are made. A speaker with a compression driver has the objective of playing very loud, dynamic and clean for movie soundtracks. A speaker that has an objective of appealing to music lovers (i.e. a 2 channel stereo system) will be designed differently and exhibit great clarity and detail for critical listening possibly with more bass for the fronts for use w/o a subwoofer, however, macro dynamics for changes in sound level may not be as important due to compressed music recordings. Both extremes have tradeoffs.

So when you compare a ribbon tweeter to a metal tweeter (i.e Ascend’s NrT tweeter), issues about a ribbon tweeter that I read from different opinions are:
- Good for certain types of softer music only (indication of limited dynamics for rock music)
- Macro dynamics capability may be limited
- Smaller sweet spot (not as good when multiple people are watching a movie)
- Need for expensive drivers/amps – lower sensitivity

Reading the Ascend thread in AVS, the owner makes some interesting observations about the Sierra ribbons and its use for HT:

The ribbons are able to reproduce vocals with smoother presentation than the NrT version and vocal representation is critical for the center speaker. My own reaction is a ribbon tweeter for the center speaker would be great for dialog and soft sounds. Perfect.

In addition, the Ascend owner was asked is it worth upgrading to the ribbon tweeter for a straight HT application. His response was, and I’m for the most part quoting: the question is difficult for him to answer, however, ribbons shine for music and for HT there are audible differences, however, its less obvious. In addition, NrT domes are capable of reference level sound and are good for loud, dynamic and clean HT. For HT, it appears he recommends the NrT dome tweeter and for music the ribbon tweeter. In his opinion, for the best of both worlds, go with the dome tweeter and with the $1,000 savings spend on room acoustics.

All of this would be easy if I was able to listen to both the ribbon and NrT speaker versions via an HT setting without the additional burden of placing an order, delivery, installation, set up, de-installation, pack up, ship back and refund for a 30 day trial. Without me ever listening to a ribbon tweeter for HT, his observations make me question whether a ribbon tweeter is the right type of speaker for movies (my third objective above of “sounds louder” in particular comes into question), as well as, if the Sierra speakers were designed primarily for music listeners.

Back to the original posts of get the best bang for your buck to meet your objectives, what makes this difficult is with a million possibilities and numerous distribution channels, I have very little opportunity to listen to most of these possibilities. That being said, I do have a huge interest in the Sierras and as time goes on, I will begin to ask more questions from Sierra users. In addition, starting in the summer when my house is quieter (the kids go to sleep-away camp), I'll probably start taking advantage of trials at no charge and trial bookshelves for easier returns. Hopefully listening to Sierra bookshelf will give me an indication of how the Towers/Center sound.

 

[FirstReflection]

Yeah, to be perfectly honest, I think you're getting a little bit thrown off course by the common desire that a lot of home theater owners have to fully recreate the commercial movie theater experience with reference level volume playback and full reference peaks. It's important, in your particular case, to take into account that you want quieter playback levels. Hitting reference level output isn't your goal or concern here. Maintaining detail and clarity at lower volume levels is. So the standard sort of things that come up with "movie speakers" - with horn-loaded tweeters, compression drivers or super high power handling and the like are not really applicable to your particular case. In your case, having a super loud initial impulse that can "overpower" any risidual "ringing" of the drivers isn't a good solution. You need a speaker that can provide the initial impulse at the volume leve that you desire, and then go nearly dead silent immediately so that all of the nuance and detail doesn't get masked by any residual sound. That's where the ribbon or planar drivers excel, and I'm certain it's the reason you liked the Martin Logan speakers more than the other speakers that you heard in store.

The dynamic peaks in movies are still within a very manageable 20dB range. While a ribbon might not be able to produce the same sheer maximum loudness given a certain size and amplifier power behind it, so long as you are not exceeding its output capabilities, dynamics for movies are no problem. If you're starting with quieter levels for playback already, realize that the loudest peaks in the movie are still only 20dB louder than the average. If your average playback level is 70 or 75dB (like it is for most people listening at home), then the loudest peaks are only 90-95dB. It's not as though your average listening level goes down but the peaks are still way up at the 105dB reference level. The ribbon RAAL tweeters in the Ascend Sierra Tower speakers have absolutely no problem with dynamics, they just don't have the same maximum output levels - but that really is not an issue for you!

I maintain that great speakers are great speakers. I don't really distinguish between "movie" speakers or "music" speakers. There are simply a bunch of metrics, and every speaker will be designed to excel in certain metrics and maybe give up a little performance in other metrics. Whether those design choices are "right or wrong", "pleasing or displeasing", is all a matter of the room they'll be playing in and listener preference.

You're absolutely right that, in the end, you just have to hear it for yourself, in your own home, using your own gear and room and listening material. But doing your research online allows you to narrow down your audition list is all, 'cause there are a nearly endless number of speaker options out there! For you in particular, I'm saying the typical "home theater" advice doesn't apply so much. You're not looking for massive output. You're not looking for 105dB playback levels that can physically shake the house. You're looking for quieter playback levels without losing any detail and keeping the sound very clear, intelligable and lifelike. So I'm saying I think you'd be best served by something exactly like the Ascend Sierra Towers with the RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade. Dynamics are not a problem when the overall output level is quieter. And side-to-side dispersion for multiple listeners is no problem for this particular tweeter either. You're right that MANY ribbon tweeters do "beam" and are really only best for a single "sweet spot" seat. But not this particular Ascend ribbon. That's very important to note

 

[Rob from NJ]

I understand and thank you for all the information.

This is going to be a long process for me as stated. I'm about a year away from implementing, however, the planning stage is critical and the first step is to research.

The Ascend Sierras (whether ribbon or dome) is very high on my list, if not top of the list based on everything I've read. Especially, with their new center hitting the marketplace, this component is the most important for HT.

I also still have an interest in Philharmonics, however, am more concerned about speaker placement due to their planar, di-pole design. Noticed that there is now a center for the Philharmonics which is a good thing for HT.

Over the next 3-4 months, plan is to continue to go out to Audio retailers and listen to determine what else is out there. I'll keep you updated.

 

[FirstReflection]

Sounds good!

This has been fun I definitely think you're on the right track. I'd recommend that you get on the Ascend and Philharmonic forum and owner threads as well and see if there is an owner within driving distance who will let you hear their speakers in their home! Always a bit weird to go over to a stranger's house But it's definitely the case that a lot of the internet direct fans especially are willing to have other enthusiasts over since they know you can't hear the speakers in a store. Worth a look in any case, since you have some time before this all goes down

I'm going to be envious of your speakers, I can already tell If I had the theater size and display placement to make the Sierra Tower combo work, I'd be ALL OVER it, let me tell you As it is, I'm still on the hunt for great on-walls to go behind an acousticall transparent drop down screen in a small room - although I'm pretty much decided on the Focal IW 1002 Be with the on-wall frame option, since they are essentially the same speakers as the Focal Professional Solo6Be monitors that I absolutely love. Just gotta save up the cash The money I had spent on the Revel on-walls I got back by returning them, but now that money is going towards the Sharp 70" LC-70LE735U before they all disappear! I pretty much gotta jump on that display right now, since the 70" size is a key part of my plan and the new replacement 2012 models are WORSE. So yeah, my Focal on-walls gotta wait for the time being. But yeah, if I had a larger theater and the setup for towers and a BIG center? I'd be jumping on those Sierra Towers and Sierra Horizon Center

 

[Rob from NJ]

Sounds good!

This has been fun I definitely think you're on the right track. I'd recommend that you get on the Ascend and Philharmonic forum and owner threads as well and see if there is an owner within driving distance who will let you hear their speakers in their home! Always a bit weird to go over to a stranger's house But it's definitely the case that a lot of the internet direct fans especially are willing to have other enthusiasts over since they know you can't hear the speakers in a store. Worth a look in any case, since you have some time before this all goes down

I'm going to be envious of your speakers, I can already tell If I had the theater size and display placement to make the Sierra Tower combo work, I'd be ALL OVER it, let me tell you As it is, I'm still on the hunt for great on-walls to go behind an acousticall transparent drop down screen in a small room - although I'm pretty much decided on the Focal IW 1002 Be with the on-wall frame option, since they are essentially the same speakers as the Focal Professional Solo6Be monitors that I absolutely love. Just gotta save up the cash The money I had spent on the Revel on-walls I got back by returning them, but now that money is going towards the Sharp 70" LC-70LE735U before they all disappear! I pretty much gotta jump on that display right now, since the 70" size is a key part of my plan and the new replacement 2012 models are WORSE. So yeah, my Focal on-walls gotta wait for the time being. But yeah, if I had a larger theater and the setup for towers and a BIG center? I'd be jumping on those Sierra Towers and Sierra Horizon Center

FirstReflection,
Once again, thanks for all your help.

Went to a local HT dealer today to listen. The sales guy was heavily pushing B&W, specifically their CT700 model for HT. Good dynamics, however, at moderate volume level, just could not understand the dialogue. No clarity. Speakers looked terrible, as well. Pro Audio style, the type you hide away.

Good luck with the Sharp 70". I also have my eyes on the same 2011 model and have seen the picture in a local store. Great picture. However, I'm still toying with the idea of a 100" screen and projection system. I understand that Sharp is selling a lot of the 70" model, however, may be losing money, thus, not a good future for them in the giant screen marketplace. Go grab one as soon as you can.

I also have a relatively local dealer that demos Focals and will go in and listen to the 700 and 800 chorus lines. Of course, I'm sure that the Be tweeter that you love, sound much nicer.

 

[FirstReflection]

You're most welcome. No prob! I'm really happy if you've found any of my advice useful

Yeah, the LC-70LE735U are definitely disappearing off the shelves, so I'll be grabbing one next week! I totally get your desire for a front projection setup. You might end up with a similar plan as mine - which is to have the 70" for "lights on" television and videogame viewing and then have an acoustically transparent 100" drop down screen to go in front of it for pitch black movie and IMAX-like viewing. With a 10 foot viewing distance, the viewing angles work out almost perfectly with those sizes. The 70" screen gives a 28.5 degree field of view, so just shy of the SMPTE recommended 30 degree field of view for 1080p HD. Meanwhile, the 100" screen is just a little larger than a constant image height would yield for 2.40:1 content and when the full 16:9 100" screen is filled, it's a 39.9 degree field of view, which does a nice job of simulating IMAX fairly well

Of course, if you're sitting further away than 10', all of the sizes and angles change. Sharp does have a couple Full Array LED WITH Local Dimming backlight models coming out in 2012 in both the 70" and 80" sizes, but they're more expensive than the non-Local Dimming 2011 LE7xx series 70" models, plus the local dimming adds "blooming" to small bright objects on dark backgrounds. Also, I don't know yet whether Sharp is sticking with the lovely matte screen surface featured on the LE7xx series or if they're switching back to the stupid, awful mirror-like glossy screens that sully almost every other LCD out there! Anywho, I'm not taking that chance regardless. I'm jumping on the LC-70LE735U

I do seem to like Beryllium tweeters I don't buy into the notion that various tweeter materials automatically carry some sort of "signature" or "character" to their sound. I've heard metal domes that roll off and silk domes that sound sibilant, so I don't think the material itself determines the sound quality. But Beryllium does have unique physical properties that make it very well suited to the duties of a tweeter. It's lighter than aluminum and stiffer than titanium and it doesn't break up until frequencies considerably higher than either of those two metals.

I do seem to have expensive taste though I'm not a huge fan of any of Paradigm's speakers until the Signature line - which happen to feature Beryllium tweeters. I'm not a huge Focal fan until the Electra Be line - again, with Beryllium tweeters. I far prefer the RBH Signature Reference line over their less expensive lines - with the upgraded Status Acoustics drivers. So yeah, there's something to be said for higher price points, not just "even", but I'd say "especially" among brands that are well known for high value. Anyone can stick a high price tag on any old piece of junk. So I don't say that you "always get what you pay for". That just isn't always the case! But with large, well-established brands that DO focus on value and hitting reasonable price points, I do think the flagship and higher priced series in their lineups benefit from being "let off the leash" a bit in terms of price point. It frees them up to go whole hog on the drivers, cabinets and cross-overs and eek out some extra performance that just isn't possible when stricter budget restraints are in place

So I really liked the Paradigm Signature W5 on-walls. But at around $3000 EACH...yeah...not likely The Focal IW 1002 Be are less than half that price. Not capable of as much sheer output, but I don't need the output in my small theater and from only 10 feet away. Still, the IW 1002 Be are about 3x the price of the Revel M10 on-walls, so there's no real surprise that the Revels just couldn't quite "do it" for me. I had cautious optimism about them. And they ARE good speakers for their relatively low price. But I want speakers that make me want to dig out all of my old recordings and listen to them all again! I haven't had new speakers that make me feel that way in a long while now, so I figure, if I'm going to do this? Might as well do it right. Right?

 

[Rob from NJ]

A few questions on your projection system setup. Is your 100” AT screen motorized or manual pull-down? I’m assuming since the TV and front speakers sit behind the AT screen (or the new Sharp will sit behind the screen), the screen is mounted to the ceiling and not the wall (room to place equipment on the wall and the screen to the ceiling with space in front of the equipment)?

With all the information you shared and guidance you provided me on speakers and room acoustics, it’s quite clear you love this hobby. Even though we all have financial responsibilities, the Focal On-Walls and listening to your old music soundtracks is priceless. I say go for it and don’t look back.

 

[FirstReflection]

Yeah, I don't have the AT screen yet. It's part of thefuture plan for my theater Right now, I'm still using my 60" Pioneer Kuro on a regular TV stand with my Energy RC-Mini-C speakers. The Energy speakers were part of a "downsizing" that I did a number of years ago and they were the right size, style and price at the time. Not bad speakers either! Though nothing particularly great. Just solid little guys

The plan is for a rather extensive reno on my apartment. I'll be doing some pretty extensive soundproofing upgrades. The front wall will be decoupled with resilient sound clips and hat channels as it is a party wall to the master bedroom. In front of that wall, I will construct what amounts to a painted frame for another wall. I can fill the cavities with insulation so that I have a highly damped front wall. The TV and speakers will be mounted to the frame and I will have a jut out at the top to hold an Elite Screens Cinetension2 electric roll down screen with their AcousticPro1080 material.

Since I'm in a concrete building, the ceiling's soundproofing will be done with C-channel construction. I wouldn't want to hand anything heavy from that! With the front wall being decoupled, it is also not a good candidate for hanging anything off of it. Hence the frame in front of the front wall, which can serve a dual purpose of providing a strong frame to hold the TV, front speakers and the electric screen, as well as being a full wall of absorption that is well "hidden" and allows me to have absorption on the front wall without panels jutting out in front of the plane of the TV or speakers