Speaker Cable Length Differences: Do they matter?

J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
gene said:
Is this gonna happen in our lifetime? :)

John the parameter limitations of human hearing with respect to frequency response, phase, directionality, spatialization, etc has already been mapped, written about and published in many scientfic journals. A few sources have already been presented such as Everest, AES papers, Harman Research, NRC, etc. There really is no magic here.

Seems like alot of effort on your part to measure the hair on a gnats a** :)
I'll take your word on the hair...

I've posted all my understandings, all my models, all my experimental design, on 5 different forums, in the hopes that someone would be able to speak on the topic with understanding...I have been pleased with some, and some have provided me papers or links or referrals that have been useful, which I thank all for.

However, nobody has been able to answer these very simple questions:

Given a speaker placement and a listener position, what level of ITD and IID are necessary to place an image 30 degrees right of center stage, in the plane of the speakers? What ITD and IID are required to place the image a foot behind the first image. What parameters are necessary to move it 10 degrees to the left, a foot in front of the plane??

These questions are not answerable given the state of human hearing analysis I have seen to date..zippo...

What are the JND levels for ITD and IID, by frequency and spl, for the entire 3 dimensional space?

If you have been holdin out on titles which can answer these questions, I'll hafta write a note to myself to be angry with you... :mad:

Seriously, my discussion on forum is to try to find this stuff already published..I have had to resort to doing it myself only because I've yet to find anything useful..

Don't even get me started on how poor power loads are with respect to accuracy...what a shambles...

Cheers, John

PS...Is it gonna happen in our lifetime?....yes, I've outlines the timeframes involved..Unless, of course, I get bored with the entire subject, and direct my efforts in other, as of yet unknown, directions..
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
jneutron said:
I discontinued association with that forum..I found that they were not at the level required to add to the issue. I had hoped otherwise, spent a good half year there..to no avail..

They do have extremely good knowledge, but it is only useful for incremental advances..or solving known issues..not for charting new waters..

Thanks for the info..

Cheers, John

? I don't; know if you had him in mind particularly, but to describe someone with Dan Lavry's background as someone who is only useful for incremental advances or solving known issues is....simply extraordinary.

I don't know what forums on PSW you participated in; they're certainly not all alike.
Some are as flooby as any audiophile forum. Others are pretty just-the-facts. Lavry's is decidedly the latter. I've pointed you specifically to a thread there about cables that began in February with some of Lavry's measurements, and where Lavry and Katz are both currently participating. The subject of cable 'jitter' has in fact come up in the last day or so. I predict that if you asked them about the Nordost results you seem so intrigued by, you'd get some interesting feedback.
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
I am incorrect

krabapple said:
? I don't; know if you had him in mind particularly, but to describe someone with Dan Lavry's background as someone who is only useful for incremental advances or solving known issues is....simply extraordinary.

I don't know what forums on PSW you participated in; they're certainly not all alike.
Some are as flooby as any audiophile forum. Others are pretty just-the-facts. Lavry's is decidedly the latter. I've pointed you specifically to a thread there about cables that began in February with some of Lavry's measurements, and where Lavry and Katz are both currently participating. The subject of cable 'jitter' has in fact come up in the last day or so. I predict that if you asked them about the Nordost results you seem so intrigued by, you'd get some interesting feedback.
I was on another entity, something called pro-audio..I incorrectly thought you were talking about that one...I believe Dan is also part of it, as I recognized his name..

Yes, in reviewing some of his posts, he has a lot going for him there..

However, in all the posts and calcs he shows, absolutely nothing about localization sensitivity crops up..just the standard single channel JND stuff.

The vast majority of people who claim speaker wires make a difference, do not ever, ever, listen to one channel....ever..

So, why does everybody concentrate on single channel specifications when claiming it can't make a diff??

Btw, Nordost is a cable manu, right? I'm talking about Nordmark, Jan. He wrote a paper on lateralization sensitivity vs ITD variations, and provided data showing humans sensitive to 1.5 uSec left-right delays, when jitter is introduced into the signals.

I'll watch the site for a while, thank you for the link..if I see some discussion at the level of the localization I am looking for, I'll certainly enter into the discussion...(oh, yah...if I see some e/m field theory errors, you can bet the house I'll pop in..) :rolleyes:

Cheers, John
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
jneutron said:
I was on another entity, something called pro-audio..I incorrectly thought you were talking about that one...I believe Dan is also part of it, as I recognized his name..

Yes, in reviewing some of his posts, he has a lot going for him there..
Yes, you could say that.


However, in all the posts and calcs he shows, absolutely nothing about localization sensitivity crops up..just the standard single channel JND stuff.

The vast majority of people who claim speaker wires make a difference, do not ever, ever, listen to one channel....ever..

So, why does everybody concentrate on single channel specifications when claiming it can't make a diff??

Gee...why don't you *ask him*?

:confused:

Look, I'm interested in your theory, but I'm hesitant to ask about it 'over there' because I don't want to misrepresent it. If there's a post of yours that packs it all in a nutshell, do you mind if I direct them to it?
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
krabapple said:
Gee...why don't you *ask him*? :confused:
Geeze, let me get my feet wet first..just signed up..... :p

Looked at his explanation of skin effect :confused: :confused: ....holy mackeral, where to start? :confused:

I feel a post comin on...

Maybe today..

Boy, attachments can be 2 meg in size? wow, I'm gonna love that...

Cheers, John
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
jneutron said:
Geeze, let me get my feet wet first..just signed up..... :p

Looked at his explanation of skin effect :confused: :confused: ....holy mackeral, where to start? :confused:

I'm not sure I've seen the post you are referring to -- I have seen Lavry dismiss the skin effect as irrelevant to home audio...which is what Audioholics says too, no?
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
krabapple said:
I'm not sure I've seen the post you are referring to -- I have seen Lavry dismiss the skin effect as irrelevant to home audio...which is what Audioholics says too, no?
The post has an explanation of what causes skinning...interesting, but in need of "modification".

Skin effect will at most, remove 15 nH per foot per conductor from the run, and is a storage mechanism that is be frequency dependent..I've seen nothing to indicate it is of any issue for speaker runs..for high z lines, it is entirely of no concern.

Cheers, John
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
jneutron said:
I discontinued association with that forum..I found that they were not at the level required to add to the issue. I had hoped otherwise, spent a good half year there..to no avail..

They do have extremely good knowledge, but it is only useful for incremental advances..or solving known issues..not for charting new waters..

Thanks for the info..

Cheers, John

John, since you are still posting here and this issue is still on, have you tried to contact NRC in Canada, speak with their acoustician?
Or, one of their previous psychoacoustician, Dr. Ted Grusec? He worked with Dr Toole there. Not sure where he is now but he has some recent JAES papers that should give his recent location, or even AES? Have you contacted Dr Toole at Harman? He responds to me, I am sure you and he are on a higher plain than me :D
I am running out of contacts :mad:
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
jneutron said:
I was on another entity, something called pro-audio..I incorrectly thought you were talking about that one...I believe Dan is also part of it, as I recognized his name..

Yes, in reviewing some of his posts, he has a lot going for him there..

However, in all the posts and calcs he shows, absolutely nothing about localization sensitivity crops up..just the standard single channel JND stuff.

The vast majority of people who claim speaker wires make a difference, do not ever, ever, listen to one channel....ever..

So, why does everybody concentrate on single channel specifications when claiming it can't make a diff??

Btw, Nordost is a cable manu, right? I'm talking about Nordmark, Jan. He wrote a paper on lateralization sensitivity vs ITD variations, and provided data showing humans sensitive to 1.5 uSec left-right delays, when jitter is introduced into the signals.

I'll watch the site for a while, thank you for the link..if I see some discussion at the level of the localization I am looking for, I'll certainly enter into the discussion...(oh, yah...if I see some e/m field theory errors, you can bet the house I'll pop in..) :rolleyes:

Cheers, John

DBTs to date have been with stereo setup :D Yes, they were not peer reviewed ;) but that is all we have.
For your position to matter, the phase differences between the cable on the left and right need to be as much as the Nordmark threshold, no?
Did Normark use headphones or speakers for his paper, I forgot what I read in his paper. Did he control for speaker cables?
Nordmark 'introduced' artificial jitter to increase sensitivity, right? How does that happen in regular recorded music? Music masking is an issue as well. You may also want to check out Erick Benjamin's conference paper on jitter, "Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality," print 4826, 1998. Maybe the jitter itself is causing or increasing audibility? However, they found it to be rather high before that happens.
But, hey, I am just an observer ;) with lots of questions, a few ideas.
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
For your position to matter, the phase differences between the cable on the left and right need to be as much as the Nordmark threshold, no? .
It's not your position, it's the virtual one created by the setup that changes..

And, more exactly, the relative positions of several virtual images within the soundstage..the absolute ones are not of concern, because head position would make such a diff for absolute, while not for relative..

And yes, Nord's thresholds would have to be exceeded..they are so small, testing capability needs to be re-defined to meet the need.
mtrycrafts said:
Did Normark use headphones or speakers for his paper, I forgot what I read in his paper. Did he control for speaker cables?
Headphones, he measured lateralization not localization.
mtrycrafts said:
Nordmark 'introduced' artificial jitter to increase sensitivity, right? How does that happen in regular recorded music?
Jitter at the microsecond level is easy to produce...the woofer moves more than that, so even if doppler wasn't modulating the frequency, the actual position of the driver will move more than the distance required for jitter.

This also means that the jitter amount is spl dependent, another variable..

mtrycrafts said:
Music masking is an issue as well. You may also want to check out Erick Benjamin's conference paper on jitter, "Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality," print 4826, 1998. Maybe the jitter itself is causing or increasing audibility? However, they found it to be rather high before that happens.
Nordmark's results suggect that the jitter decreases the sensitivity threshold..so increasing the sound level should increase localization capability..
mtrycrafts said:
But, hey, I am just an observer ;) with lots of questions, a few ideas.
And, good ones at that...I can always count on that from you....

Cheers, John
 
unreal.freak

unreal.freak

Senior Audioholic
Nice! Ive read this thread from top to bottom and im am not understanding most of what i have read. I will say this though....i did get the info i was looking for " it doesnt matter if your speaker cables match as long as the run is under 500ft". That right there made it worth the read in my opinion :D:p

Thanks For The Thread,
Tommy
 
B

bombarde32

Audioholic
Obviously, the importance of the top octave will vary by a person's hearing ability, but I can't believe I'm so out of the ordinary.

This doesn't mean that I disagree with the conclusion of the article at all. I've used widely different cable lengths (5ft versus 17ft) before in the left and right channels and there was never an audible difference. I think there is evidence to show that response in the highest octave is very important, it is just that different reasonable lengths of properly engineered speaker cables don't affect it much.
I'm on board with you on this one. I can hear 1 foot stops on a pipe organ crystal clear along with a good portion of the congregation so I don't buy the high end only available to a small % of the population argument.

If cables are 2 different lengths the signal will play at different times. But will you hear it ... no. This difference is about as significant as a kleenex left a couple feet in front of the bass port.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Not even. Electricity travels about a foot in a nanosecond. 500' of difference takes about 500 ns and no, our ears can't discern this.
 
K

KODG

Junior Audioholic
cable lenghts

As have been said 2-3 times lenght difference will not be noticable. and also the other good point is the farther the run the lower the speaker gauge should be. My mains are the same, but my surround A speakers are about 2x each other, In my case as with others, my amp is on one rack (left side of the room) so the left speaker lenght is 12 ft. the righ speaker lenght is 20Ft.

In a perfect world all speaker cable runs to your different speaker positions would be identical, but like in my case I have two racks seperated by a 60" plasma. My left rack has my PS audio Power Plant P., Pre-amp & Two amps.
The right rack has all my blu-ray , Sacd, Cd, Ps3, & another PS Audio Power plant P. & Hd Directv Tivo, ect.

Audioquest told me the cable lenghts are very important, but I have to agree with the 2-3 times difference does'nt hurt & in many cases is neccessary. also B&W has a chart for cable lenghts & recommended gauge size.

Kodg
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Audioquest told me the cable lenghts are very important, but I have to agree with the 2-3 times difference does'nt hurt & in many cases is neccessary. also B&W has a chart for cable lenghts & recommended gauge size.
Audioquest also slaps batteries on their cables that make no physical connection with the actual cable itself so one wonders if what they say has anything to do with provable science or if its based on Wild e Coyote physics :)
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
And B&W actually defers to "many specialist magazines" (their own words) for cable recommendations. If you want to get specific (and tested) try roger russell's site.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
...one wonders if what they say has anything to do with provable science or if its based on Wild e Coyote physics :)
Hey, now. Maybe the Road Runner doesn't obey physics, but our boy Wile is a:



:D
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
As have been said 2-3 times lenght difference will not be noticable. and also the other good point is the farther the run the lower the speaker gauge should be. My mains are the same, but my surround A speakers are about 2x each other, In my case as with others, my amp is on one rack (left side of the room) so the left speaker lenght is 12 ft. the righ speaker lenght is 20Ft.

In a perfect world all speaker cable runs to your different speaker positions would be identical, but like in my case I have two racks seperated by a 60" plasma. My left rack has my PS audio Power Plant P., Pre-amp & Two amps.
The right rack has all my blu-ray , Sacd, Cd, Ps3, & another PS Audio Power plant P. & Hd Directv Tivo, ect.

Audioquest told me the cable lenghts are very important, but I have to agree with the 2-3 times difference does'nt hurt & in many cases is neccessary. also B&W has a chart for cable lenghts & recommended gauge size.

Kodg
AudioQuest also says that the batteries on their interconnects eliminates the break-in period of some audio components but that doesn't mean it's a fact. They stand to sell more cable if people buy into the "all speaker cables should be the same length" BS. If the current flows at about the speed of light and it travels 1' in a nanosecond, 8' of additional length will never be heard but a human. 8 nanoseconds is just not audible. What should be done with the excess? Coiling it tightly makes it an inductor, which will have an affect on the sound. Place that inductor near a varying magnetic field and it will pick up the frequencies of the variation, e.g., 60Hz AC voltage.

If you want to keep the runs equal, go ahead but it's a waste of money.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Audioquest also slaps batteries on their cables that make no physical connection with the actual cable itself so one wonders if what they say has anything to do with provable science or if its based on Wild e Coyote physics :)
They also say cables have a break-in period and need to be "formed", like capacitors.

I feel like shipping some charged electrolytic caps to them and asking if I formed them correctly.
 

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