Speaker audition

[Nuance AH]

DS-21,

You are a fool and your inability to comprehend this is laughable. I see you pull the same crap on other forums too when you have no idea what you're talking about or when someone disagrees. It's no wonder you are so disliked. I won't bother wasting my time anymore with someone who's mind is as warped as yours. Enjoy the narcissistic bubble you live in.

P.S. You're still dead wrong.

 

[GranteedEV]

I think everyone needs to calm down, relax, and go buy Tales of Graces F.

 

[Nuance AH]

I couldn't help but think of the first ~25 seconds or so of this

Well played, although I just used that bit yesterday (but with a different video). Don't I get some sort of 48 hour grace period?

Thank you!

Yes. Exactly!

I've bought panels in the past that some people have used and recommended. Did not work for me at all.

I recently bought some Auralex panels and tried different arrangements, including along the side walls and along the front and back walls. I just could not hear any difference.

And I'm not alone. Linkwitz & Peter Azcel apparently don't think acoustic panels do a whole lot for them.

Does Dennis Murphy or Jim Salk have panels in their music room?

I don't know; ask them.

If you couldn't hear a difference that's fine man. I never claimed they'd do a "whole lot" for you, by the way. I suggested you measure your room so you can confirm what you're hearing. I don't expect you to do that, though.

I think I just thank everything AJinFLA, GranteedEV, and DS-21 says out of habit.

Didn't AJ get banned? And DS-21 is so blinded by his ego that he thinks his opinions are facts, and usually spouts nonesense. Then there's Grant: he actually knows what he's talking about. So you're 1 for 3.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wild

Now I have something wild to report.

Remember how I said the Orion sounded "weird" when I placed them 6" from the side walls?

Well, I tried it again today. Same experience. The sound seemed muddy and boomy.

Then I tried something that GranteedEV & DS-21 mentioned. I angled the Orion like 45-50 degrees so that they "crossed" in front of me.

GranteedEV mentioned this regarding the KEF 201/2. However, I didn't feel like it made a significant difference.

But what happened with the Orion when I "crossed" them was amazing!

The sound became crystal clear. The details I heard were incredible. The muddy and boomy sound vanished. Soundstage amazing. And this is the Orion 6" from the side walls, 3 feet from front wall, 2.0 full range in Direct Mode.

 

[Nuance AH]

Now I have something wild to report.

Remember how I said the Orion sounded "weird" when I placed them 6" from the side walls?

Well, I tried it again today. Same experience. The sound seemed muddy and boomy.

Then I tried something that GranteedEV & DS-21 mentioned. I angled the Orion like 45-50 degrees so that they "crossed" in front of me.

GranteedEV mentioned this regarding the KEF 201/2. However, I didn't feel like it made a significant difference.

But what happened with the Orion when I "crossed" them was amazing!

The sound became crystal clear. The details I heard were incredible. The muddy and boomy sound vanished. Soundstage amazing. And this is the Orion 6" from the side walls, 3 feet from front wall, 2.0 full range in Direct Mode.

Which confirms the room was at play, which was my point. Thank you.

 

[zieglj01]

Note to self: The next time you audition speakers, keep that sh!t to yourself...

It sure is amazing what one audition can do, or bring - and I think that
sometimes AVS gets wild. Life is short, there are more serious things,
or problems in the world.

 

[mazersteven]

I think everyone needs to calm down, relax, and go buy Tales of Graces F.

Correction - I think everyone needs to calm down, relax, and go have a Martini

 

[GranteedEV]

Actually, I'd pick Tales of Graces F over a Martini though you can really do both at the same time.

Didn't AJ get banned?

Aj just got banned for telling someone the truth.

In his own signature way

 

[Alex2507]

Does Dennis Murphy or Jim Salk have panels in their music room?

My guess is no. I'm also going to guess that they don't EQ their speakers.

I may have brought this up before but I recently met some guys from the BAS that feel that speaker systems need to be able to reproduce music at concert SPL's. A dozen violins and a pipe organ are going to require arrays of tweeters and mids along with multiple LF drivers. My thought is that once you crank something that loud in a normal listening room the early reflections are so far above the threshold of audibility that they become bothersome. At those volumes LF early reflections require like 16"-24" absorbers to be effective. That would mean a typical 2"-4" absorber is nearly useless at 80db or something like that ... I'm just parroting something I think I understood so cut me some slack you DBT'ers.

So to me it all means that the need for acoustic panels is application specific and I doubt Denis or Jim are cranking Carmina Burana out at 110 db.

 

[Alex2507]

Aj just got banned for telling someone the truth.

In his own signature way

By signature way do you mean by being a flaming bag of sh!t?

 

[PENG]

Actually, I'd pick Tales of Graces F over a Martini though you can really do both at the same time.



Aj just got banned for telling someone the truth.

In his own signature way

Well I seem to remember something slight different but I guess if someone say the same things you do you may call it the truth..

 

[DS-21]

***
Then I tried something that GranteedEV & DS-21 mentioned. I angled the Orion like 45-50 degrees so that they "crossed" in front of me.***But what happened with the Orion when I "crossed" them was amazing!

Not bad for a "fool" with an "inability to comprehend" (considering the source, I assume that was meant as a compliment...) with a "warped" mind, eh?



Less-informed people will say it's "the room." They are (as usual) wrong. What you're hearing is primarily you steering the dipole null in a manner that minimizes cut early reflections, generates stronger contralateral early reflections, while attenuating and delaying late reflections a little.

GranteedEV mentioned this regarding the KEF 201/2. However, I didn't feel like it made a significant difference.

I'd expect only subtle differences at the primary listening position, because they have such even coverage. And, obviously, there's no real null to steer, except the one pointing at the floor and ceiling due to the woofer/Uni-Q crossover.

Did you sit elsewhere as well? I ask because my experience with "overtoeing" is that it also expands the sweet area a bit. Seats that didn't sound as good get better.

I may have brought this up before but I recently met some guys from the BAS that feel that speaker systems need to be able to reproduce music at concert SPL's. A dozen violins and a pipe organ are going to require arrays of tweeters and mids***

I agree completely with the BAS guys. But not necessarily with your conclusions. Seventh-row-center in a big hall tops out at maybe 106-107 dB. That's easily attainable in a domestic living room with 90+ dB/W/m speakers and adequate power. More efficient speakers do it better, simply because there's less thermal compression and less split-second clipping. Also, because of reflections and such power demands are much lower than infinite-space calculations.

One does need the multiple LF speakers to smooth out room response.

By signature way do you mean by being a flaming bag of sh!t?

I've never understood the antipathy towards AJ. He's a whip-smart guy bounding with creativity who loves music and seeks what's important in reproducing it without wasting his time on irrelevances. His detractors all lack one or more of those qualities. He also has more experience than most actually implementing his ideas

. Then again, I guess I empathize with others who share my lack of capacity to suffer fools well.

 

[Alex2507]

I agree completely with the BAS guys. But not necessarily with your conclusions. Seventh-row-center in a big hall tops out at maybe 106-107 dB. That's easily attainable in a domestic living room with 90+ dB/W/m speakers and adequate power. More efficient speakers do it better, simply because there's less thermal compression and less split-second clipping. Also, because of reflections and such power demands are much lower than infinite-space calculations.

My conclusions are guesses in an attempt to make sense of it all but you may have mistaken some of my conclusions for Alvin Foster's 24" thick absorbers and multi tweeter/mid arrays. The guy who designed his among other array systems is a physicist named Lesley. He was good enough to try to explain some of the 'why' to me and I believe he himself has 16" thick absorbers but that could be somebody else in their group. They are the ones who don't appreciate early reflections.

I've never understood the antipathy towards AJ. He's a whip-smart guy bounding with creativity who loves music and seeks what's important in reproducing it without wasting his time on irrelevances. His detractors all lack one or more of those qualities. He also has more experience than most actually implementing his ideas

. Then again, I guess I empathize with others who share my lack of capacity to suffer fools well.

I may not be whip smart and bounding with creativity but I'm also not a flaming bag of sh!t. If that makes me a fool, so be it but I've been called worse and that's by my own mother so I'm not going to worry a bunch about that.

 

[Nuance AH]

Less-informed people will say it's "the room." They are (as usual) wrong. What you're hearing is primarily you steering the dipole null in a manner that minimizes cut early reflections, generates stronger contralateral early reflections, while attenuating and delaying late reflections a little.

Classic.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...I suggested you measure your room so you can confirm what you're hearing. I don't expect you to do that, though.

1) I enjoy this hobby a lot. But I really don't take this hobby or any hobby or entertainment as seriously or passionately as you or a lot of guys.

2) You are right. I'm not willing to spend the time or money to prove what I can't hear.

Didn't AJ get banned? And DS-21 is so blinded by his ego that he thinks his opinions are facts, and usually spouts nonesense. Then there's Grant: he actually knows what he's talking about...

Those 3 can each write a book on audio.

And AJ will one day soon become a prominent speaker designer/builder with his own multi-million dollar speaker company. Right now his company is small (Soundfield Audio). But they were the talk of the town in Tampa last weekend. Even Bob Carver showed up to listen to AJ's speakers!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My guess is no. I'm also going to guess that they don't EQ their speakers...

So to me it all means that the need for acoustic panels is application specific and I doubt Denis or Jim are cranking Carmina Burana out at 110 db.

But who listens to 110 dB?

And when PENG went to some of the live symphonies, he brought along a SPL meter. I don't think the sound went over 90 dB even during the loudest parts.

 

[cpp]

AcuDefTechGuy

You are right. I'm not willing to spend the time or money to prove what I can't hear

I couldn't agree with you more. If you can't hear it, waste the money on something else that you can see and touch.




AcuDefTechGuy

But who listens to 110 dB?

And when PENG went to some of the live symphonies, he brought along a SPL meter. I don't think the sound went over 90 dB even during the loudest parts.

I couldn't agree with you more, man your on a roll

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What you're hearing is primarily you steering the dipole null in a manner that minimizes cut early reflections, generates stronger contralateral early reflections, while attenuating and delaying late reflections a little.

Did you sit elsewhere as well? I ask because my experience with "overtoeing" is that it also expands the sweet area a bit. Seats that didn't sound as good get better.

Yes, I sat in the left, right, middle, on the floor in the middle, and even OUTSIDE the room (with the volume increased for outside the room).

The details I heard even from the formal dinning room (probably 40 ft from the Orion) was still amazing and clearer than a lot of speakers I've auditioned!

I know there are a lot of theories and hypotheses out there. I believe a lot of them are true. I personally have not experience any significant improvement with EQ or acoustic panels and bass traps. But this "toe-in-crossing" was a significant personal "discovery" for me. I would have been happy to pay $500 for that. But I guess some of the best things in life are free.

 

[Alex2507]

But who listens to 110 dB?

And when PENG went to some of the live symphonies, he brought along a SPL meter. I don't think the sound went over 90 dB even during the loudest parts.

Cheap seats, what can I say?

Maybe it was the cold sucking the life out of the sound waves.

I think a the BAS guys might be into reproducing the levels from the mic positions that would be used for recording as opposed to a variety of available seating positions. That's just a guess too but it's not always about classical. Jazz was mentioned and that I would think can have some high peaks too. Also I think these guys are shooting for good reproduction of things like canons which would require serious woofage. Next time I get around them I'll ask that question but IIRC I asked what level a solo female vocalist could hit and the answer was well into the 90's as was demonstrated in a particular venue. I should have taken notes on that discussion.

Next time I'm at this one friend's house I'll bring my SPL meter and see what a snare drum and a kick drum measure at from like 10' away. As a matter of fact he has a number for what a Pow-Wow drum clocks in at with like half a dozen Indians having a good time. That number was pretty high too but that I will find out and report back.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Cheap seats, what can I say?

Maybe it was the cold sucking the life out of the sound waves.

I hope you're not calling PENG "cheap".

And I believe the live symphonies were indoors, not outdoors.

And is the SPL volume C-weight or A-weight?

I can understand C-weight volume of 95dBC. The volume I listen to is ~ 93-94 dBC max. But they are ~ 85dbA Max.