Soundstage

[Shadow_Ferret]

Before I posted this, I poked around AW University for the answer, but couldn't find it.

When reviews talk about speakers having a soundstage or that they have detail, what exactly does that mean?

Does it mean if I play classical and close my eyes I should be able to tell where the 3rd violinist is? Where the 2nd cellist is sitting?

Or is it more like the violins should be coming from your left and the cellos should becoming from the right?

I'm curious. What should I be looking for to find the soundstage or determine if my speakers are detailed or whatever?

Thanks.

ETA: And I guess an adendum to that would be, what speakers could I go audition to get a good example of what a good soundstage is, so then I'd know what I'm looking for when I do audition speakers?

 

[Joe Schmoe]

First, soundstage and imaging are different (though related) concepts. A speaker may do one better than the other.
Soundstaging is placing the sound in an ambient space, which might be a concert hall or an imaginary environment created in a studio. With live recordings, great soundstaging can give a convincing illusion of actually being there.
Imaging is the precise localization of sounds within a 3D space. With great imaging, you can locate the individual drums in a drum kit, or hear the movement of a guitar player's finger down the string (not just the squeak.)

 

[fredk]

Thats a great explanation Joe!

I had a dramatic example of soundtage when I listened to a good live recording in a stereo - 5.1 a/b comparison.

Going from stereo to 5.1 its was like the speakers unfolded into a live band. It was quite something!

I think detail can be taken at its dictionary meaning. I did an audition of Paradigm's studio line and as I moved from the smallest bookshelf through to towers, I could here more in the music. The best example is in the bass. The bookshelves gave good clean notes, but with the tower, you could hear the string vibrate with every note. I think it was doing a better job of producing all the harmonics.

Fred

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I have two pairs of stereo speakers that are each excellent in their own right (Mirage 350 towers and Cambridge S30 minimonitors.)
The towers are capable of a larger soundstage, but do not image as precisely. They have deeper, more powerful bass, but not as tight and accurate. They have a wider dynamic range overall, but cannot capture as many fine dynamic subleties (eg a singer's change of volume within a single note.)
Needless to say, it is difficult to arrive at a definite preference for one or the other. Someday, if I buy seriously expensive bookshelves, I hope that they will have all of the good properties of both and none of the compromises of either.

 

[Exit]

The practical part of getting the soundstage right to the best of your equipment's ability is to follow the appropriate layout diagram for your system, be it 5.1 or 7.1. Setup diagrams are provided at the reference below.

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/home-theater-speaker-layout-an-essential-guide

These diagrams are intended to locate speakers appropriately so there are no holes in soundstage coverage from too wide a distance apart or to close together creating too narrow of a soundstage. Sometimes there are room factors preventing speaker placement in the ideal positions but they nonetheless provide a target to shoot for.

 

[fmw]

Imaging derives primarily from two things - microphone placement in the recording venue and the manner in which the recording is mixed and mastered. No speaker system can undo what the recording engineer did.

Imaging then derives to a small extent from the room acoustics in which the recording is played back. Speakers can play a small part in this in the sense that different frequency response characteristics can affect the way the image is transmitted to the room. And to an even more limited degree, the radiation pattern of the speaker drivers can contribute. But room acoustics are by far the more important part of this relatively unimportant part of delivering imaging. The important part, as mentioned, is microphone placement, mixing and mastering.

Speakers with similar frequency response played in the same room acoustics will deliver the same imaging regardless of price or brand. To say this speaker system "images" better than that one could possibly be meaningful if the frequency response characteristics are meaningfully different and just plain puffery and wishful thinking if they are not. To say this speaker images well begs the question "compared to what?"

If you heard the celli on the right and the violins on the left then that means the recording engineer handled things well. No speaker is going to reverse that and put the celli on your left and violins on your right. It simply isn't going to happen.

 

[Guangui]

You want to experience first hand the difference. To me the best way is to take different speaker models from the same brand/series. As we all know, PSB Image is one of the most popular series out there with T45 and B25 leading the way; I happen to own both, and in two different environments, but for kicks I A/B all the time. Let me tell you something, I have no favorite, as they are good in their own way, but lately I have started to favor the B25, somewhat more laidback than the T45, and I like that.

By no means this is to suggest they are the best speakers out there. Obviously there are better speakers and as your budget increases, so does the SQ and characteristics. But, PSB Image is well known for great imaging and soundstage, probably the best in their price range.

If you can, go to a PSB dealer and hear the B25, then the T45. You will probably notice that the T45 is more detailed in the mids and highs, and provide better imaging than B25, and a very decent soundstage.

When you hear the B25 you will find that has slightly better soundstage, fills the room nicely, somewhat laid back, and makes you feel like in the middle of the recording, but not as good with image and details like the T45; though still a very decent speaker.

You can do the same with Dali Ikon Series, B&W 600 or 700 Series, MA Silver Series, Energy RC Series, Paradigm Studio Series, or any other popular series out there. Take two or three speaker models from the same series, and leaving bass, treble, mids, etc. out of the equationg you will notice that each one is better at imaging, or soundstage; in some cases a model might be better than others in the same series in both categories.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Don't forget, room acoustics can make a great set of speakers seem to have poor imaging and soundstage. I never really 'understood' what those terms meant on a personal level until I added treatments. Everything seemed to come alive and seemed so much more real. You really need to consider the 'big picture' of your setup instead of just assuming only speakers add this level of realism to your experience.

Jack

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Speakers with similar frequency response played in the same room acoustics will deliver the same imaging regardless of price or brand.

I disagree. I have heard speakers in the same room (same source) that are similar in most respects but quite different in imaging.

 

[photoeye]

I was going to post a similiar question. The only speakers I've seen so far that actually claim as part of the speakers feature is 3D sound. This coming from the KEF IQ series and the Dali Helicon(most of their speakers).

So is it these speakers have better 3D/soundstage compared to other manufacturers or it's just marketing hype?

I'm looking for a pair of bookshelf that will produce a nice 3D soundstage. Not interested in the lows.

What other's do you suggest?

KEF IQ1
Wharfedale Diamond 9.1
Dali Helicon 300 (way over priced)

Is there something lower cost similiar to the dali helicon 300?

 

[fmw]

So is it these speakers have better 3D/soundstage compared to other manufacturers

No.

or it's just marketing hype?

Of course. However understand that this doesn't take away from KEF's reputation of manufacturing high quality and high performance speakers systems for many decades.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I was going to post a similiar question. The only speakers I've seen so far that actually claim as part of the speakers feature is 3D sound. This coming from the KEF IQ series and the Dali Helicon(most of their speakers).

One sees the rather silly term "holographic" bandied about quite a lot in both ads and reviews.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Def Tech: "Lush, spacious soundstaging. Lifelike depth of field. Pinpoint imaging."
Paradigm: "Expanding the sheer size, scale, and dynamics of the acoustic soundstage."
Mirage: "Larger, deeper, and more realistic soundstage than any speaker design yet developed."
Totem: "Holographic imaging. Breath real life and space into any recorded music."
NHT: "...ability to put you in a genuinely believable 3D headspace without those goofy 3D glasses."