Sound United has been sold....

[Eppie]

Private equity firms are a death knell for companies. They sell off what they can for the highest profit and don't give a damn if the companies go bust. If they do sell, I hope that at minimum it is a group that has some passion for audio and video and wants the companies to thrive.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I like to know what our AH forum insider @M Code thinks.

 

[Tankini]

I like to know what our AH forum insider @M Code thinks.

Probably say just buy Yamaha

 

[TLS Guy]

Private equity firms are a death knell for companies. They sell off what they can for the highest profit and don't give a damn if the companies go bust. If they do sell, I hope that at minimum it is a group that has some passion for audio and video and wants the companies to thrive.

Sound United have been passed around like a 'hot potato' for several years now. I hate to say it, but I expect a rapid decline in Sound United and its products. I find it hard to see anything hopeful in this news.

As I keep pointing out, we really have to change the infrastructure of HT and home audio for that matter, if there is going to be wide acceptance.

The receiver is a big barrier to acceptance. They are large bulky boxes with a withering number of connectors on the back. They add very complex set up, and the intimidation for most is off the clock. When the average guy sees all those connector channels, he thinks he has to use the lot, or feels disgruntled because there are many options he feels he will never use, but was forced to pay for.

I know this, because we have friends who would love to have an AV system that would fit with their decor and lifestyle and sometimes budget. They feel there is nothing for them but to accept sound bar and a small sub. Actually they are correct, and that is the problem.

The industry needs to start to cooperate and have sensibe standards, so people can easily pick and choose what they want.

Of all my three systems, this is the one that visitors are attracted to the most, by far. I think the reasons are obvious.

It is relatively unobtrusive, and yet easily fills that large space and sounds very good.

However, industry and standards could improve it.

The AVP is still a big box as are the power amps.

What is required is going modular. I new rack system could fit DAC etc, and power supply. The power amps could easily be in the speakers where they actually belong.

There needs to be agreement on power supplies with voltages available and loads.

As I have said before in this time of streaming and cable, the whole system with agreed standards could easily be controlled from a phone or iPad. All could be controlled with Ethernet cables to the speakers via a small powered Ethernet hub.

Funnily enough TL subs really lend themselves to in wall designs. So having drive units with optimal T/S parameters for TLs would be a bonus.

Now the biggest barrier is the standard 19" stud spacing which is a definite barrier. So likely some reconstruct would be required, either of an existing wall, or the building of a "false wall" which is the solution in the photograph.

The vast majority of domestic spaces are not suitable for surround audio, let alone Atmos. Most spaces would be better off with 2.1 or 3.1 systems. Under any circumstances that gets you 90% plus on the way to audio nirvana and would be a massive improvement on what is available now to the consumer.

It is wrong to say that people are happy with sounds bars. I am certain they are not, they just see no alternative in their domestic situation. That is the problem that confronts us as I see it.

So what is required are flexible solutions easily and elegantly accommodated to the vast panoply of domestic situations.

Not to be underestimated is the knock in effect this has on the producers of medium.

I know many would love to be able to receive the ever increasing number of audio and especially AV streams.

However for most organizations there are barriers to be able to reach their audience. This is because of the App system that puts up barriers to entry. So this completes the vicious circle, that originators of program can't easily and economically reach their target audience and consumers can consume what is on offer due to barriers to entry.

So, let's take a case in point. A wealthy donor gave the Detroit symphony orchestra a state of the art AV production studio. However they do not have an App. So unless a consumer has an HTPC connected to an AV system then he will have to put up with computer speakers or headphones. Now the DSO show how many people availed themselves of their superb AV stream. The numbers connecting are usually less than 20! This is what I mean by barriers to entry.

Even Medici TV only have an App on Samsung TVs, Roku and mobile phones.

So the challenge is to make our systems above all much more adaptable and versatile. This needs to be adaptable to decor and interior designs. A wide range of program needs to be easily accessible and artificial barriers to entry for providers needs to go.

Unless the industry comes to grips with this, a sub and a miserable sound bar, will be all anyone will be able to aspire to.

I know I keep hammering away at this, but I see the problems. As with all human endeavors, rigid thinkers with resistance to beneficial innovative change will always put of roadblocks to needed change. Those individuals are also present among members of this forum I regret to say.

 

[highfigh]

Sound United have been passed around like a 'hot potato' for several years now. I hate to say it, but I expect a rapid decline in Sound United and its products. I find it hard to see anything hopeful in this news.

As I keep pointing out, we really have to change the infrastructure of HT and home audio for that matter, if there is going to be wide acceptance.

The receiver is a big barrier to acceptance. They are large bulky boxes with a withering number of connectors on the back. They add very complex set up, and the intimidation for most is off the clock. When the average guy sees all those connector channels, he thinks he has to use the lot, or feels disgruntled because there are many options he feels he will never use, but was forced to pay for.

I know this, because we have friends who would love to have an AV system that would fit with their decor and lifestyle and sometimes budget. They feel there is nothing for them but to accept sound bar and a small sub. Actually they are correct, and that is the problem.

The industry needs to start to cooperate and have sensibe standards, so people can easily pick and choose what they want.

Of all my three systems, this is the one that visitors are attracted to the most, by far. I think the reasons are obvious.

It is relatively unobtrusive, and yet easily fills that large space and sounds very good.

However, industry and standards could improve it.

The AVP is still a big box as are the power amps.

What is required is going modular. I new rack system could fit DAC etc, and power supply. The power amps could easily be in the speakers where they actually belong.

There needs to be agreement on power supplies with voltages available and loads.

As I have said before in this time of streaming and cable, the whole system with agreed standards could easily be controlled from a phone or iPad. All could be controlled with Ethernet cables to the speakers via a small powered Ethernet hub.

Funnily enough TL subs really lend themselves to in wall designs. So having drive units with optimal T/S parameters for TLs would be a bonus.

Now the biggest barrier is the standard 19" stud spacing which is a definite barrier. So likely some reconstruct would be required, either of an existing wall, or the building of a "false wall" which is the solution in the photograph.

The vast majority of domestic spaces are not suitable for surround audio, let alone Atmos. Most spaces would be better off with 2.1 or 3.1 systems. Under any circumstances that gets you 90% plus on the way to audio nirvana and would be a massive improvement on what is available now to the consumer.

It is wrong to say that people are happy with sounds bars. I am certain they are not, they just see no alternative in their domestic situation. That is the problem that confronts us as I see it.

So what is required are flexible solutions easily and elegantly accommodated to the vast panoply of domestic situations.

Not to be underestimated is the knock in effect this has on the producers of medium.

I know many would love to be able to receive the ever increasing number of audio and especially AV streams.

However for most organizations there are barriers to be able to reach their audience. This is because of the App system that puts up barriers to entry. So this completes the vicious circle, that originators of program can't easily and economically reach their target audience and consumers can consume what is on offer due to barriers to entry.

So, let's take a case in point. A wealthy donor gave the Detroit symphony orchestra a state of the art AV production studio. However they do not have an App. So unless a consumer has an HTPC connected to an AV system then he will have to put up with computer speakers or headphones. Now the DSO show how many people availed themselves of their superb AV stream. The numbers connecting are usually less than 20! This is what I mean by barriers to entry.

Even Medici TV only have an App on Samsung TVs, Roku and mobile phones.

So the challenge is to make our systems above all much more adaptable and versatile. This needs to be adaptable to decor and interior designs. A wide range of program needs to be easily accessible and artificial barriers to entry for providers needs to go.

Unless the industry comes to grips with this, a sub and a miserable sound bar, will be all anyone will be able to aspire to.

I know I keep hammering away at this, but I see the problems. As with all human endeavors, rigid thinkers with resistance to beneficial innovative change will always put of roadblocks to needed change. Those individuals are also present among members of this forum I regret to say.

People don't understand the technical aspects and they don't want to learn about these. That makes it necessary for someone else to set everything up and that costs a fair amount depending on what's involved, like hiding the cabling and one of the most important- making a decision about where the equipment will live. Add the possibility that the homeowners may not live in that house for more than 5 years and the cost becomes a no-go. Plop it on a mantle or shelf, put the bottom of the TV 6' or higher and nobody enjoys it. Add the charm of dangling cables below the TV and the beauty really shines.

Then, there's the question of "How can I control this system in a way that everyone can use it, including the babysitter?".

Received a call from a client about ARC not working with his new TV. During the call, it worked for a few seconds and stopped. He's extremely frustrated and while he was checking the connections on the HDMI cable, he realized that the port on the AVR seems loose. Now, he will probably need a new AVR, just because of the piss-poor design and implementation of HDMI and the fact that the cost isn't a problem is beside the point.

All things considered, I wouldn't want to be a home theater customer who doesn't understand what is needed in order to install the equipment and do the setup.

The problem with making the hardware modular- they make far more by selling complete units- who has the crystal ball that tells the manufacturer how many of each module to produce?.

 

[TLS Guy]

People don't understand the technical aspects and they don't want to learn about these. That makes it necessary for someone else to set everything up and that costs a fair amount depending on what's involved, like hiding the cabling and one of the most important- making a decision about where the equipment will live. Add the possibility that the homeowners may not live in that house for more than 5 years and the cost becomes a no-go. Plop it on a mantle or shelf, put the bottom of the TV 6' or higher and nobody enjoys it. Add the charm of dangling cables below the TV and the beauty really shines.

Then, there's the question of "How can I control this system in a way that everyone can use it, including the babysitter?".

Received a call from a client about ARC not working with his new TV. During the call, it worked for a few seconds and stopped. He's extremely frustrated and while he was checking the connections on the HDMI cable, he realized that the port on the AVR seems loose. Now, he will probably need a new AVR, just because of the piss-poor design and implementation of HDMI and the fact that the cost isn't a problem is beside the point.

All things considered, I wouldn't want to be a home theater customer who doesn't understand what is needed in order to install the equipment and do the setup.

The problem with making the hardware modular- they make far more by selling complete units- who has the crystal ball that tells the manufacturer how many of each module to produce?.

That is what I figured. It is good to have confirmation from an installer. I get some of those calls from friends. Even the set up of a sound bar from TV to ar via eARC can get some into trouble, let alone the set up and the myriad of connections on the back of a receiver. Most want to run a mile from that nightmare.

I do know people who would love to avail themselves of the vast riches out there for the asking if you know how. They are just intimidated.

Just look at the troubleshooting we have done for many over the years just over and obscure setting for instance. Many of these have not been neophytes.

This whole infrastructure has never been ready for prime time in my view.

 

[highfigh]

That is what I figured. It is good to have confirmation from an installer. I get some of those calls from friends. Even the set up of a sound bar from TV to ar via eARC can get some into trouble, let alone the set up and the myriad of connections on the back of a receiver. Most want to run a mile from that nightmare.

I do know people who would love to avail themselves of the vast riches out there for the asking if you know how. They are just intimidated.

Just look at the troubleshooting we have done for many over the years just over and obscure setting for instance. Many of these have not been neophytes.

This whole infrastructure has never been ready for prime time in my view.

One of my clients asked if I would be using HDMI when I did the initial system design and I told him I wouldn't, until they fix all of the problems or I have no choice. That was in late 2006 and here we are, still having problems and we have no choice. Originally, I used Component video, then had to change to HDMI after the analog sunset in 2014.

HDMI=Horribly Defective Multimedia Interface. The original design called for cable length UP TO 6 feet, connected once and left alone, with resolution UP TO 1080i/p. Did you know that the screws above every HDMI port were originally intended to be used for a cable retainer? I just searched for 'HDMI cable retainer' and saw several cables and adapters that screw into the rear of an AVR, but have never seen them in the wild. Add the ridiculously stiff cables and it's a formula for problems.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I expect a rapid decline in Sound United and its products.

What evidence do you have to support this?

We saw Marantz/Denon offering Dirac Live and 4-Independent Sub EQ, which many fans loved. Some fans don’t care for Room Corrections, but that’s outside the point. So let’s not spend the next few days and pages arguing about room corrections.

We saw Marantz offering the AV-10 and AMP-10, which both have verified state of the art measurements. The AV-10 has the best measurements to date of any AVP regardless of price.

These are evidence contrary to your beliefs even though SU has been sold to new companies.

 

[Tankini]

What evidence do you have to support this?

We saw Marantz/Denon offering Dirac Live and 4-Independent Sub EQ, which many fans loved. Some fans don’t care for Room Corrections, but that’s outside the point. So let’s not spend the next few days and pages arguing about room corrections.

We saw Marantz offering the AV-10 and AMP-10, which both have verified state of the art measurements. The AV-10 has the best measurements to date of any AVP regardless of price.

These are evidence contrary to your beliefs even though SU has been sold to new companies.

Denon/Marantz/Onkyo/Pioneer will Continue, solid products. Denon alone has been putting out great additions "AVR, AVP" home audio. Hopefully when sold The new proprietor will carry on the torch of putting out fine home audio/video products.

 

[Tankini]

One of my clients asked if I would be using HDMI when I did the initial system design and I told him I wouldn't, until they fix all of the problems or I have no choice. That was in late 2006 and here we are, still having problems and we have no choice. Originally, I used Component video, then had to change to HDMI after the analog sunset in 2014.

HDMI=Horribly Defective Multimedia Interface. The original design called for cable length UP TO 6 feet, connected once and left alone, with resolution UP TO 1080i/p. Did you know that the screws above every HDMI port were originally intended to be used for a cable retainer? I just searched for 'HDMI cable retainer' and saw several cables and adapters that screw into the rear of an AVR, but have never seen them in the wild. Add the ridiculously stiff cables and it's a formula for problems.

" Did you know that the screws above every HDMI port were originally intended to be used for a cable retainer? I just searched for 'HDMI cable retain"

Thanks for that lil tidbit of info! No matter what I do, with tie wrapping my cables up to keep HDMI my cables from sagging, putting undue pressure on the inputs. Retainers would have been very nice added.

 

[highfigh]

" Did you know that the screws above every HDMI port were originally intended to be used for a cable retainer? I just searched for 'HDMI cable retain"

Thanks for that lil tidbit of info! No matter what I do, with tie wrapping my cables up to keep HDMI my cables from sagging, putting undue pressure on the inputs. Retainers would have been very nice added.

They would have been great if people had used them, but they didn't. Must have been too much work and too time consuming.

 

[highfigh]

Has anyone thought about what will happen if a piece of equipment fails during the warranty but outside of the exchange time window? Unless they live close to Panurgy, Electronic Express (the one that was in Chicago on Fabyan Parkway, not the chain) or another place that still has tech on staff and parts availability, a newer AVR repair isn't going to be fast and shipping will be expensive. Also, with SU being sold, parts aren't necessarily available for units that are only 5 years old. Stuff from the '70s and later, not much of a problem.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Also, with SU being sold, parts aren't necessarily available for units that are only 5 years old.

Wouldn’t that be the same case for any company that relies on foreign parts (made in China/Vietnam, etc.). It doesn’t matter if the company is being sold to another company.

 

[TLS Guy]

Wouldn’t that be the same case for any company that relies on foreign parts (made in China/Vietnam, etc.). It doesn’t matter if the company is being sold to another company.

The point is the sale has not taken place. However Sound United is apparently up for sale. Unless they can show stupendous profitability, then after all the recent changes in ownership, Sound United is now ripe for a private equity buyout. At this stage in the game there is every possibility that they will strip the assets and turn into a shell of a company. So we need to see who buys it. One thing is for sure, if Sound United keep getting bought and sold like they have, it will soon be shell of what it was.
The ink is barely dry on the last sale, so a pessimistic view of events going forward is warranted.

 

[highfigh]

Wouldn’t that be the same case for any company that relies on foreign parts (made in China/Vietnam, etc.). It doesn’t matter if the company is being sold to another company.

I was referring more to the intent of the brand to not provide parts and cutting costs by doing that. The bean counters don't want the new entity to be saddled with the cost of supporting the users of their goods and it doesn't seem to matter where they're made.

 

[highfigh]

The point is the sale has not taken place. However Sound United is apparently up for sale. Unless they can show stupendous profitability, then after all the recent changes in ownership, Sound United is now ripe for a private equity buyout. At this stage in the game there is every possibility that they will strip the assets and turn into a shell of a company. So we need to see who buys it. One thing is for sure, if Sound United keep getting bought and sold like they have, it will soon be shell of what it was.
The ink is barely dry on the last sale, so a pessimistic view of events going forward is warranted.

Like Bain Capital, which owned D&M, around the time Mitt Romney ran for POTUS and people bitched about that involvement? It wouldn't be the first time a private equity firm stuck their nose into something like this and it won't be the last, but all of the consolidation of brands and shutting doors after selling off assets and possibly licenses makes sense to an MBA but as someone with 45+ years in consumer audio and (later) video, I don't see good things on the horizon UNLESS someone comes along and gets the industry to come to their senses.

 

[TLS Guy]

I was referring more to the intent of the brand to not provide parts and cutting costs by doing that. The bean counters don't want the new entity to be saddled with the cost of supporting the users of their goods and it doesn't seem to matter where they're made.

You are right about that. There is often zero after sales service. I recently found that Panasonic do not even have any service centers, not even warranty service.
No one publishes a circuit, let alone a service manual for anything any more.

I would be in favor of a law, that would require service manuals be placed on line at the time of product release.

This industry is in an appalling mess and is I fear dying, and rigor mortis will soon set in.

 

[highfigh]

You are right about that. There is often zero after sales service. I recently found that Panasonic do not even have any service centers, not even warranty service.
No one publishes a circuit, let alone a service manual for anything any more.

I would be in favor of a law, that would require service manuals be placed on line at the time of product release.

This industry is in an appalling mess and is I fear dying, and rigor mortis will soon set in.

Service manuals are easy to find- I know you have posted several but I doubt they would release them during the warranty period because we all know that many people who shouldn't horse around inside, will, then scream online about the brand being crap. Most TVs, specifically, are modular. There's very little component-level repair being done by a lot of servicers- it's usually the old guys who do that because they have a problem making people wait for a board when they have/can get a few components faster.

From the retailer end, I really miss the way the industry operated in the late-'70s and early-'80s. Lots of support from manufacturers, competition was a lot more friendly and most resellers were independent, not part of a national or international chain/cartel.

 

[MrBoat]

Never have been a fan of a conglomerate entity holding multiple brands as if they are different companies. To me it feels monopoly-ish, and always has. Even my beloved JBL speakers brand has always had that ghost in the closet since before I was interested in them, that I have had to overlook. It adds a feel of generic quality, but at boutique prices, along with a certain blatant, socioeconomic classification vibe to it all. A super-corporate entity of 1%'rs that I love to hate, instead of just being a genuine fan of a product for whatever merits it may hold on it's own.

As such, all this has done is cause me to future proof my corner of the hobby for life and pretty much ignore all the hot air and marketing drama and it's overplayed ad campaigns and desperate sales forces. It's also caused me to heavily scrutinize actual valid technological advances, over the fluff. This tends to take me out of their loop for 20 years at a time, because that's about how long it takes for this technology to audibly advance significantly enough to make it worth looking into again.

OTOH, it makes me thankful for just how completely they developed stereo listening way back, and how redundant it tends to make these otherwise minutely incremental, so-called advances, as time goes on. Too many non-productive hands in the till compared to what they put out to ever justify interest from me. It's easier and less worrisome just to buy used after consumerism has run it's course.

 

[TLS Guy]

Never have been a fan of a conglomerate entity holding multiple brands as if they are different companies. To me it feels monopoly-ish, and always has. Even my beloved JBL speakers brand has always had that ghost in the closet since before I was interested in them, that I have had to overlook. It adds a feel of generic quality, but at boutique prices, along with a certain blatant, socioeconomic classification vibe to it all. A super-corporate entity of 1%'rs that I love to hate, instead of just being a genuine fan of a product for whatever merits it may hold on it's own.

As such, all this has done is cause me to future proof my corner of the hobby for life and pretty much ignore all the hot air and marketing drama and it's overplayed ad campaigns and desperate sales forces. It's also caused me to heavily scrutinize actual valid technological advances, over the fluff. This tends to take me out of their loop for 20 years at a time, because that's about how long it takes for this technology to audibly advance significantly enough to make it worth looking into again.

OTOH, it makes me thankful for just how completely they developed stereo listening way back, and how redundant it tends to make these otherwise minutely incremental, so-called advances, as time goes on. Too many non-productive hands in the till compared to what they put out to ever justify interest from me. It's easier and less worrisome just to buy used after consumerism has run it's course.

You nailed this one Mr Boat. My thoughts exactly.

That is why I keep to the minimum devices from the corporate world. I can do much better with the minimum of their corporate nonsense.

Really the only corporate devices in my systems are the TVs and AVPs and the odd disc player. Most of my equipment comes from a time where owners like Peter Walker designed very RELIABLE equipment to gives years and years of reliable service.

I have no speakers from the corporate world. They are al designed and built by me, around drivers from small companies with owners that really do know something about their product.
I build my own computers, HTPC and DAW. I have three wonderful systems that have as little to do with this corporate mayhem as possible.

Last of all this has massively increased the quality of my systems way above the norm. If there is a better system then I don't know of it.

So as far as I'm concerned a pox on all this corporate nonsense the marketers and MBAs. Rogues the lot of them.