Sound system for swim club setup advice

[darby427]

hello all - I am looking for some advice - I got suckered into being the grounds trustee for our swim club. We have a 4,000 sq ft pool that seats a few hundred around it. A few years ago a sound system was installed around the pool and deck and its intended to cover about 20,000 sq ft. it does an ok job, but they ended up using 12ga pyle zip cord wire that isnt even 12ga and after a few years its basically rotted away. We are going to rewire it this spring using proper outdoor rated pure copper 12ga wire. I want to make sure we wire it the best way possible. It is set up like this -
System Components:
Crown XLS 1002, Mackie Mix 8 Board
Monoprice 4 channel speaker selector - https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=9995
Wireless mic system, 12 - dayton autio IO655 speakers

It is hooked up like this - going from the speakers back in :

The speakers are wired in three "zones" back into the Monorpice speaker selector. Each zone has 3-5 speakers that are wired station to station where the wire goes from the monoprice to the first speaker then first to second, second to third, etc.. I guess thats considered parallel?

The Monorpice is wired into the crown and it appears to be wired in stereo It goes L/R from crown binding posts (says ch1 and ch2) to the L/R spring clip inputs on monoprice selector.

We have an old tuner that outputs RCA into the mackie and we also have a rca to 3.5mm to hook up a phone that goes into the mackie and finally we have a wireless mic that goes into the mackie via xlr cables. The output of the mackie goes 1/4" to xlr into channel 1 and channel 2 of the crown.

All zones must play the same thing, but they can be turned off and only certain zones will play. I am assuming that we are not in bridge mode and the monoprice has circuity that shows at least an 8 am load back to the crown. Is the the best way? Should I bridge it and hook all speakers direct to the crown? (I realize I will lose the zoning ability) Should I bridge it and keep it the same way?

any advice would be appreciated thanks!

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

It’s not likely all those speakers are wired in parallel. You’re probably going to find they’re wired in series or some kind of series / parallel combination.

Nevetheless, the only component in eminent danger from a poor wiring scheme of the speakers would be the amplifier. If it’s still working after all these years, I’d say don’t mess with success. Just wire everything back up exactly the way it currently is, with the proper outdoor-rated wiring.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[highfigh]

One of the main concerns for the wire and speakers is the Chlorine in the air- that eats many materials and plastic is one of them. You would be best using cable that's rated for 'direct burial' and any connections/bare wire should be coated with dielectric grease (silicone grease). That stuff is a mess, but it works.

First thing to do- determine EXACTLY how the speakers are wired and the amplifier's load. You can use a multimeter set to Ohms- it's a good enough method. Whether the speakers are all parallel or it's series-/parallel is less important than it would be in a small room- the loss over the long runs adds to the speaker impedance and I doubt that it causes any problems for the amp but inspect all of the speaker wires AT the speakers- if you see that one cable has an unbroken negative and the positive is the only one that was cut but both were cut at the next speaker, it's series-parallel (the last one gets two conductors, regardless). If both were cut/bared and inserted in the terminals on all but the last one, they're parallel. Either way, measure the resistance- if it's about 3 Ohms, they're parallel and if it shows about 10 ohms, it's series-parallel. Because the speaker selector has a protection switch, I suspect they're parallel.

To be honest, there's no need for this to be stereo, so if you can set it to Mono, do it. That way, everyone hears all of the sound, rather than the channel that's closest. Unfortunately, the Crown amp doesn't sum the two inputs, it can only send the input from one channel to both- if the board doesn't have a way to convert everything to Mono, buy a summing adapter (No, this IS NOT just a Y cord)- the least expensive one I have seen is from Edcor and they make good stuff. It's one of the least expensive ones I have seen.

Read this link about using Y cords and Rane's other white papers-
http://www.rane.com/note109.html

This is what you need for the existing system- the green connector at the end isn't used to save money, it's what the commercial/industrial audio community uses, which uses shielded audio cable and bared ends, rather than needing all kinds of plugs and adapters. I guess it does save money, but in a sensible way- it's not them being cheap.

https://www.edcorusa.com/s2m

Also, while it may have lived this long without problems, that speaker selector is not going to live long if someone cranks the volume- it's rated for 70W with the protection on and 140W without protection. Buy a better one, at some point. Doesn't need to be Niles, but it does need to handle more power.

This kind of system doesn't need to operate at high SPL, but the number of speakers means it needs an amp that can handle it and you already have that covered. However, if the speaker selector decides to go belly up, the amp isn't going to be happy. I doubt it will fail, but you'll definitely know something is wrong.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

To be honest, there's no need for this to be stereo, so if you can set it to Mono, do it. That way, everyone hears all of the sound, rather than the channel that's closest. Unfortunately, the Crown amp doesn't sum the two inputs, it can only send the input from one channel to both- if the board doesn't have a way to convert everything to Mono, buy a summing adapter (No, this IS NOT just a Y cord)- the least expensive one I have seen is from Edcor and they make good stuff. It's one of the least expensive ones I have seen.

If the tuner and phone device are connected to channels 3/4 and 5/6 of the Mackie, and the Balance control set straight up, the signal going out to the Main Out jacks will be mono.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[highfigh]

If the tuner and phone device are connected to channels 3/4 and 5/6 of the Mackie, and the Balance control set straight up, the signal going out to the Main Out jacks will be mono.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

No, it will be stereo if they're connected to the L/R inputs and it's not safe to assume the control will always be in the middle detent (if it has one). For $60, why not just connect everything normally and sum it after the mixer's output?

 

[darby427]

thanks everyone.. been there all weekend trying to rewire and figure things out. Its turns out 6 of the speakers were "bad" - sounded tinny with absolutely no bass. I suppose that means the woofers were fried. I ended up diagramming how it was wired. Each speaker was wired speaker to speaker and then back to the monoprice switch from the closest speaker - I am assuming that is parallel.

We looked at several wiring options, but for simplicity and cost we ran the wires in parallel. I have it broken into "3 zones". From the where the amp is we ran 12ga direct burial to the first outdoor speaker and then speaker to speaker to 5 more speakers that surround the backside pool. The second zone runs from the amp area to 4 speakers around the guard shack which is where there are lots of tables. The final zone is 3 speakers in a pavilion we have. I think some of the problem was the monoprice switch and the fact that it was wired wrong - they cross connected one of the zones. My thought it to look for a beefier "switch" to be able to turn off zones if not needed.. the other option is to wire it all together and all speakers play at the same time. The wire has been run, now its time to hook it up. I did put the crown in mono which I believe will deliver more wattage. Thank you for everyone's suggestions, please keep them coming!

 

[BMXTRIX]

You really need to understand the importance of parallel vs. series wiring and ohm loads and how that will impact the equipment instead of just going for the simple solution.

These speakers needed to be properly setup to present a 8 ohm load to everything, which requires a series/parallel setup for long term reliability. The Crown amp is likely handling things well because of how it is built, but 6 speakers, in series is going to cause some potential issues as it should present a load under 2 ohms, which will be tough on the amplifier, or the speaker selector. Probably not an issue if the volume is kept reasonable, but not an ideal long term solution.

You can actually use the wiring you have in place already, and follow one of the diagrams from this page to get the ohm rating up above 4 ohms and this will give you a much more stable system:

http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/spkr_wiring.html

You do not have to run new wiring, but you do need to wire things correctly to ensure long term functionality and reliability.

This system would more often be run as a 70v system to allow for easier setup and all speakers to be run as a single mono load off an amp instead of this more convoluted setup. Or, with up to 24 speakers from a 12 channel amplifier presenting a 4 ohm load.

Anyway, I would ensure the ohm load is properly wired to produce nothing less than 4 ohms to the speaker selector.

 

[darby427]

great advice... that caused a lot of reading.. I think I may have it figured out.. will someone check my math - I keep getting confused in my own mind I believe this will equal out the ohm load.

There are 10 speakers total with 3 runs to the source.

The first run from the source -
Speakers 1 and 2 are on a pole 75 feet from the source. Speakers 3 and 4 are on a pole 100 feet from speakers 1 and 2. Speaker 5 is on a pole 110 feet from speakers 3 and 4.

There is a 12ga wire from the source to the poll of speaker 1/2. There is a 12ga wire from the speaker 1/2 pole to the speaker 3/4 pole and there is a 12ga wire from the speaker 3/4 pole to speaker 5.

Connect the + of the source wire to the + of speaker 1. - of speaker 1 to the + on speaker 2. - on speaker 2 will get spliced into the - on the source wire. The + of the source wire will get spliced to the + of the wire that runs from the speaker 1/2 pole to speaker 3/4 pole. At the speaker 3/4 pole the + from the 1/2 pole wire will go the + on speaker 3. - on speaker 3 will go to + on speaker 4. - on speaker 4 will get spliced to the - that will run back to the - on the source wire at the first pole. For speaker #5, the + will get spliced to the source + from the 1/2 pole at the 3/4 pole. The - will get spliced in the the - that returns to the source.

Run 2 from the source
Speaker 6 is 60 feet from the source on a pole. Speaker 7 is 30 feet from speaker 6 on a pole.

There is a 12ga wire from the source to speaker 6, then a 12ga wire from speaker 6 to 7.

Source wire + to + on speaker 6. - on speaker 6 to + on speaker 7. - on speaker 7 to - on source wire

Run 3 from the source
Speaker 8 is on the wall 15 feet from source. Speaker 9 is 3 feet from speaker 8 and speaker 10 is 10 feet from speaker 9.

There is a 12ga wire from the source to speaker 8, then a 12ga wire from speaker 8 to 9 and then a 12ga wire from speaker 9 to 10.

Source wire + to + on speaker 8. - on 8 to + on 9. Splice source + to + on wire from 9 to 10. connect all - together back to source.

The source is a Crown XLS 1002 in bridge mode. There is a monoprice speaker selector there - not sure if it will be used again - may get a better one that can handle 12ga wire or I may pigtail a 14ga wire to the 12ga source wires and then run 14ga from the monoprice input to the crown output. Does the series / parallel hook up make any difference if the speaker selector is used? According to the specs it provides impedance matching.

For testing purposes I hooked up the source to speaker 1 (+/-) then (+/-) to speaker 2. Then took the wire to speaker 3/4 and hooked it up to speaker 2 (+/-) hooked that up to speaker 3 (+/-) then went from 3 to 4 (+/-). Sounded great but I have a feeling it wont last long term?

I appreciate all the advice so far! thanks!

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Your setup, especially with the distances involved, is a textbook example of the need for a 70V system. Since that would require refitting or replacement of all the speakers, it's probably not going to happen.

But whomever spec'd the initial install dropped the ball, leaving it to you pick it back up. It seems you are doing the best you can given the circumstances, but perhaps you should get some quotes and start the club on the road to budgeting for a proper long distance system.

Now, 70V is the "old school" solution. What you probably should really be looking at for future upgrades is a wireless system, with more local wireless-connected amps to the remote speakers for much shorter wiring, with the possibility to broadcast directly to spectator's phones via WiFi. You probably would not then need to use a 70V system as the wiring distances can be made much shorter.

You might find people who control the purse strings are more enthusiastic about "high tech" upgrades, as silly as that is, than simply properly fixing what is already there (with a 70V retrofit).

 

[highfigh]

great advice... that caused a lot of reading.. I think I may have it figured out.. will someone check my math - I keep getting confused in my own mind I believe this will equal out the ohm load.

There are 10 speakers total with 3 runs to the source.

The first run from the source -
Speakers 1 and 2 are on a pole 75 feet from the source. Speakers 3 and 4 are on a pole 100 feet from speakers 1 and 2. Speaker 5 is on a pole 110 feet from speakers 3 and 4.

There is a 12ga wire from the source to the poll of speaker 1/2. There is a 12ga wire from the speaker 1/2 pole to the speaker 3/4 pole and there is a 12ga wire from the speaker 3/4 pole to speaker 5.

Connect the + of the source wire to the + of speaker 1. - of speaker 1 to the + on speaker 2. - on speaker 2 will get spliced into the - on the source wire. The + of the source wire will get spliced to the + of the wire that runs from the speaker 1/2 pole to speaker 3/4 pole. At the speaker 3/4 pole the + from the 1/2 pole wire will go the + on speaker 3. - on speaker 3 will go to + on speaker 4. - on speaker 4 will get spliced to the - that will run back to the - on the source wire at the first pole. For speaker #5, the + will get spliced to the source + from the 1/2 pole at the 3/4 pole. The - will get spliced in the the - that returns to the source.

Run 2 from the source
Speaker 6 is 60 feet from the source on a pole. Speaker 7 is 30 feet from speaker 6 on a pole.

There is a 12ga wire from the source to speaker 6, then a 12ga wire from speaker 6 to 7.

Source wire + to + on speaker 6. - on speaker 6 to + on speaker 7. - on speaker 7 to - on source wire

Run 3 from the source
Speaker 8 is on the wall 15 feet from source. Speaker 9 is 3 feet from speaker 8 and speaker 10 is 10 feet from speaker 9.

There is a 12ga wire from the source to speaker 8, then a 12ga wire from speaker 8 to 9 and then a 12ga wire from speaker 9 to 10.

Source wire + to + on speaker 8. - on 8 to + on 9. Splice source + to + on wire from 9 to 10. connect all - together back to source.

The source is a Crown XLS 1002 in bridge mode. There is a monoprice speaker selector there - not sure if it will be used again - may get a better one that can handle 12ga wire or I may pigtail a 14ga wire to the 12ga source wires and then run 14ga from the monoprice input to the crown output. Does the series / parallel hook up make any difference if the speaker selector is used? According to the specs it provides impedance matching.

For testing purposes I hooked up the source to speaker 1 (+/-) then (+/-) to speaker 2. Then took the wire to speaker 3/4 and hooked it up to speaker 2 (+/-) hooked that up to speaker 3 (+/-) then went from 3 to 4 (+/-). Sounded great but I have a feeling it wont last long term?

I appreciate all the advice so far! thanks!

Did the speakers have a small transformer on each? If so, the system is supposed to use a 70V amplifier and you can't just parallel a bunch of speakers, then connect them to an amplifier if you want any of it to survive. Blown woofers can be a symptom of too much power and a lot of the speakers used for this kind of application are pretty cheap, so power handling isn't what they were designed for.

Also, any load connected to a stereo amplifier that's set to 'Bridged Mono' will look, to the amp, as half of the actual load and if you read the specs, it clearly shows the minimum impedance for Mono and Stereo operation. Measure the resistance on each speaker wire and you'll see that what you have isn't what the amp wants.

If you want this to work, you need to do it right.

 

[darby427]

Unfortunately the club is all volunteer for things like this and its up to the members to fix - usually on their dime. We charge just enough to keep the pool running. That being said I think the way I am wiring it up will work. Luckily we got a member to donate a russound sdb4-1 speaker selector so that should improve things. All of the speakers are dayton audio io655 - 8 ohms not the ones that can be set up for 70v. thanks for the advice everyone!

 

[darby427]

for those following this adventure.. It was all wired up and sounded great! - Even made all spices in conduit boxes and coated the connections to the speakers in dielectric grease. Took a video to prove it!

even ran the system for 2 striaght days with no problems!

then the rained.. and it sounded like I lost 50% of my volume. At first I thought it was the amp but I hooked up one speaker alone and it worked.. so it has to be something in my wiring.. water probably.. any suggestions on how to trouble shoot this? I plan on checking for wet connections.. but beyond that?

Strike that... A dip switch in the "new" schure 262 mixer got set to mic instead of line.. Checked all connections and they were dry... then almost out of desperation I looked at the back of the mixer.. a dip switch must have been partially flipped and when I moved it to its final install it flipped to mic.