Sony HAP-Z1ES High-Resolution File Player - Can It do this ?

[rjharle]

Been looking around for a Digital Music Player and ran across this player/server from Sony cost $2000.00. I pulled out these two features because I don't think it can be done.

Can audio be restored and what would it sound like ?

Drop a crapy file into the box and like magic a lossless 24/98 comes out. Marketing BS ?

DSD Re-mastering Engine
This ideal D/A conversion system combines a high-performance DSP and FPGA (field programmable gate array) to convert all signals to 128 FS

DSD signals. It was designed based on know-how garnered from Sony's direct 8-times oversampling and Extended SBM (Super Bit Mapping) technology for professional recorders.

Digital Sound Enhancement Engine
Offers natural sound with a spacious feel by restoring high frequency sound and the tail shape of the waveform likely to be removed through the audio compression process.

 

[NINaudio]

Can it make a crappy mp3 sound better? Possibly. Will it sound as good as a lossless version of the song. Highly unlikely.

Is that thing worth $2000? Definitely not IMO.

 

[NINaudio]

FWIW, my receiver has similar functions that claim to restore sound in lossy files. You really can't replace what has been lost, but this type of "functionality" is/are basically an algorithm/s that attempt to recreate what they think is missing.

 

[Am_P]

If some esoteric fk sold the same piece, he will probably charge 10k. It is 2k because "Sony" (audiphool disapproved) sells it although i have seen it on eBay for as low as 1k.

 

[sterling shoote]

I'm a Sony fanboy. When the aforementioned Sony came to market, I wondered what's the point. I still wonder, what's the point? In other words, I just could not justify buying this product as I did not see any need for it. That's to say, the unit appears, for the most part, to be a library which polishes entries. Seems like the market for recorded music is now more tuned to subscription services for music than ownership of it, since lossless is now deliverable.

 

[highfigh]

A friend has one of these, but he bought it as an employee of a Sony dealer- I'll ask him about it- he wouldn't have bought it if he didn't think it did something better than the other options at the time.

FWIW, I have a ReQuest server and I haven't compared anything on it with a CD in a long time, I do think that something is a bit different- my opinion is that some tracks that were recorded in the '60s sound better than I would have expected and the CDs weren't remasters, they were the original run of the mill versions.

 

[TLS Guy]

Been looking around for a Digital Music Player and ran across this player/server from Sony cost $2000.00. I pulled out these two features because I don't think it can be done.

Can audio be restored and what would it sound like ?

Drop a crapy file into the box and like magic a lossless 24/98 comes out. Marketing BS ?

DSD Re-mastering Engine
This ideal D/A conversion system combines a high-performance DSP and FPGA (field programmable gate array) to convert all signals to 128 FS

DSD signals. It was designed based on know-how garnered from Sony's direct 8-times oversampling and Extended SBM (Super Bit Mapping) technology for professional recorders.

Digital Sound Enhancement Engine
Offers natural sound with a spacious feel by restoring high frequency sound and the tail shape of the waveform likely to be removed through the audio compression process.

You can not restore a compressed file. You can reset it to loss less and it might say it is, but the bits are not there. Any claim you can restore a compressed file is bogus. You have to go back to the source if you can. The key words are "likely to be removed." In other words the program has no clue.

 

[rjharle]

FWIW, my receiver has similar functions that claim to restore sound in lossy files. You really can't replace what has been lost, but this type of "functionality" is/are basically an algorithm/s that attempt to recreate what they think is missing.

That is what I was thinking that the programs use some sort of extrapolation and algorithm to replace what it assumes to have been lost or removed.

I was curious about how well it worked and if it did work did it sound natural ?

This may be a process of making it sound different and calling it better since the listener wouldn't know what was missing or replaced.

 

[rjharle]

I found a review by Stereophile and this is what was said about these functions:

"The Shostakovich download included an MP3 of the same tracks, and though it suffered in A/B comparisons with the DSD version, it sounded reasonably clear and fairly open on its own. Here's where the HAP-Z1ES's DSEE was advantageous in converting the closed-in sound of MP3 to something more natural. When I switched it on and off, the difference was easy to hear. DSEE did magic with lossy Internet radio at all bit rates, and made 256/320kbps streaming a delight. For the first time, I can listen to so-called "hi-rez" streams, such as Linn Classical or AVRO De Klassickenthe excellent RCORadio, for hours without fatigue. I tried DSEE with many recordings, but could find no lossy or older, non-remastered 16/44.1 file whose sound it did not improve. Its usefulness was questionable with higher-rez PCM sources—it did nothing most of the time, and for the rest, it hindered as often as it helped. The HAP-Z1ES automatically turns off DSEE when it detects a DSD source, and that's a good thing—in that case, using DSEE would require a pyrrhic conversion to PCM."

Sony HAP-Z1ES high-resolution file player Page 2

www.stereophile.com

 

[lovinthehd]

You can not restore a compressed file. You can reset it to loss less and it might say it is, but the bits are not there. Any claim you can restore a compressed file is bogus. You have to go back to the source if you can. The key words are "likely to be removed." In other words the program has no clue.

If the compressed file is still lossless, it's still lossless (like flac, alac). If it's a lossy compressed file (mp3, AAC, OggVorbis etc) then no, you can't "restore" it.

The "restorers" from what I've seen are more like applying a loudness contour (various boost of treble/bass) to make them more "pleasing".

 

[BMXTRIX]

Been looking around for a Digital Music Player and ran across this player/server from Sony cost $2000.00. I pulled out these two features because I don't think it can be done.

Can audio be restored and what would it sound like ?

Drop a crapy file into the box and like magic a lossless 24/98 comes out. Marketing BS ?

Sony doesn't seem to be making any crazy claims here. They are saying that they use high quality DACs in their unit, which is likely.
They are saying that they are applying quality codecs to the incoming audio, which is likely.
They are saying that their playback will be using a high quality playback stream, which is likely.

They aren't saying that if you feed it crap, that it will sound amazing.

For video, if you start with a really high quality 1080p movie, and run it through a great scaler, then you can improve the quality and get a very solid 4K image.
If you start with a low quality 480i VHS tape level image, then I can still run it through that same great scaler. The video will be improved and the output signal will still be 4K... but it will still look like crap overall. Improved, but not great. That's reality.

I can't imagine having the ears to tell the difference. I really would care a lot more about the user experience than the device itself as well. A great user experience for digitally stored music collections seems of far greater importance to me at this point. I do not trust Sony to deliver on that, or to maintain it if they do happen to deliver on it.

 

[rjharle]

Sony doesn't seem to be making any crazy claims here. They are saying that they use high quality DACs in their unit, which is likely.
They are saying that they are applying quality codecs to the incoming audio, which is likely.
They are saying that their playback will be using a high quality playback stream, which is likely.

They aren't saying that if you feed it crap, that it will sound amazing.

For video, if you start with a really high quality 1080p movie, and run it through a great scaler, then you can improve the quality and get a very solid 4K image.
If you start with a low quality 480i VHS tape level image, then I can still run it through that same great scaler. The video will be improved and the output signal will still be 4K... but it will still look like crap overall. Improved, but not great. That's reality.

I can't imagine having the ears to tell the difference. I really would care a lot more about the user experience than the device itself as well. A great user experience for digitally stored music collections seems of far greater importance to me at this point. I do not trust Sony to deliver on that, or to maintain it if they do happen to deliver on it.

Are you saying that these claims are part of a normal (good chips/codecs) playback process?

DSD Re-mastering Engine
This ideal D/A conversion system combines a high-performance DSP and FPGA (field programmable gate array) to convert all signals to 128 FS

DSD signals. It was designed based on know-how garnered from Sony's direct 8-times oversampling and Extended SBM (Super Bit Mapping) technology for professional recorders.

Digital Sound Enhancement Engine
Offers natural sound with a spacious feel by restoring high frequency sound and the tail shape of the waveform likely to be removed through the audio compression process.

Since you don't trust Sony, what comparable featured unit would you trust?

 

[BMXTRIX]

Are you saying that these claims are part of a normal (good chips/codecs) playback process?

Since you don't trust Sony, what comparable featured unit would you trust?

No, I"m saying that the claims are part of a normal MARKETING campaign to sell gear. It doesn't make the equipment bad or good, it just makes for good selling practice. Kind of like when selling a battery and claiming that "No battery lasts longer!" - It may be the exact same as 50 other batteries, which means they are being honest... nothing lasts longer. But, there is a lot which lasts just as long. It's just marketing speak, and doesn't provide any real information to the buyer.

Same here. Sony isn't offering any objective specifications in such a statement. They may be upsampling the incoming audio stream, but it doesn't mean that the stream will be great. It just means that the output will match up to the 'best' that the device can deliver. Which you may love, or may not be thrilled with.

I DO trust Sony on many things! I would expect their product to deliver excellent audio quality. Their TVs regularly are considered some of the best at delivering the best video quality possible. They do know audio and video like few other companies are capable of.

What I don't trust from them is great software interactivity with the audio collection, which is a major part of the digital audio library process. How easy it is for you, the end user, to navigate the collection to get to your music and to add it to playlists or to browse and interact with the system.
I could be wrong. It could be great. They may have decided to do this in conjunction with their Playstation system to give a great end user experience, and port the user interface over to this unit. Thereby giving long term support, updates, and ensured quality for years to come.

Or not.

I think companies like Bluesound and Sonos deliver a nice experience with years of expected support. There are others as well which the other forum members could vouch for better than I can. From what I've heard, the Bluesound players are really nice.

 

[rjharle]

No, I"m saying that the claims are part of a normal MARKETING campaign to sell gear. It doesn't make the equipment bad or good, it just makes for good selling practice. Kind of like when selling a battery and claiming that "No battery lasts longer!" - It may be the exact same as 50 other batteries, which means they are being honest... nothing lasts longer. But, there is a lot which lasts just as long. It's just marketing speak, and doesn't provide any real information to the buyer.

Same here. Sony isn't offering any objective specifications in such a statement. They may be upsampling the incoming audio stream, but it doesn't mean that the stream will be great. It just means that the output will match up to the 'best' that the device can deliver. Which you may love, or may not be thrilled with.

I DO trust Sony on many things! I would expect their product to deliver excellent audio quality. Their TVs regularly are considered some of the best at delivering the best video quality possible. They do know audio and video like few other companies are capable of.

What I don't trust from them is great software interactivity with the audio collection, which is a major part of the digital audio library process. How easy it is for you, the end user, to navigate the collection to get to your music and to add it to playlists or to browse and interact with the system.
I could be wrong. It could be great. They may have decided to do this in conjunction with their Playstation system to give a great end user experience, and port the user interface over to this unit. Thereby giving long term support, updates, and ensured quality for years to come.

Or not.

I think companies like Bluesound and Sonos deliver a nice experience with years of expected support. There are others as well which the other forum members could vouch for better than I can. From what I've heard, the Bluesound players are really nice.

Thank you for your reply and a better understanding.

There seems to be so many on the market, and it's hard to say above the BS. I'm not sure which would be better a Digital Music Server, DAC or Player. I will not be playing files from the PC but, it may be easier to transfer files (server) so the DAC/Player may be better. I do know the features I will need. I did look at all the Bluesound units, and they didn't have all the features in one unit. I may not need a DAC because the Anthem AVR has a built-in DAC. Can use analog or digital input the analog units I've seen so far don't have video for OSD.

HDMI - Video out for OSD
DSD - For some of the files I have
At least - 24 bit/192 khz
Quality - Sound
Cost $1000 - 2000 Less if after $1000 is all BS

So far I have to look at the manuals to see what the units do because the companies don't publish it then put on my waders to say above the BS.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you for your reply and a better understanding.

There seems to be so many on the market, and it's hard to say above the BS. I'm not sure which would be better a Digital Music Server, DAC or Player. I will not be playing files from the PC but, it may be easier to transfer files (server) so the DAC/Player may be better. I do know the features I will need. I did look at all the Bluesound units, and they didn't have all the features in one unit. I may not need a DAC because the Anthem AVR has a built-in DAC. Can use analog or digital input the analog units I've seen so far don't have video for OSD.

HDMI - Video out for OSD
DSD - For some of the files I have
At least - 24 bit/192 khz
Quality - Sound
Cost $1000 - 2000 Less if after $1000 is all BS

So far I have to look at the manuals to see what the units do because the companies don't publish it then put on my waders to say above the BS.

It sounds to me as if you should consider building a DAW. Then you can build in just the facilities you need. That way you can customize it to your needs. There still is a huge place for DIY in the audio world. I built my first DAW in the early nineties when that was cutting edge. I built my second one about five years ago. That is the one you saw on that clip. If you do it you can build in the best quality available. Why pay someone else to do it wrong.

 

[rjharle]

It sounds to me as if you should consider building a DAW. Then you can build in just the facilities you need. That way you can customize it to your needs. There still is a huge place for DIY in the audio world. I built my first DAW in the early nineties when that was cutting edge. I built my second one about five years ago. That is the one you saw on that clip. If you do it you can build in the best quality available. Why pay someone else to do it wrong.

I have a DAW to edit and work on the files. What I'm looking for is a unit to play my files through my AVR.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have a DAW to edit and work on the files. What I'm looking for is a unit to play my files through my AVR.

My DAW plays through my AVP into my system to absolute perfection. So what type of a fist did you make of yours? Playing into your system is one of the most basic functions of a DAW. You do need an external DAC though. I use an RME unit, that is absolutely top of the line, and used in studios and broadcast centers world wide. It is not Far Eastern junk either.