Sony 9000ES vs Sony STR-DA4ES

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>OK folks, its done. &nbsp;If your in this section of the forum, that means you passed the article. &nbsp;It is now released on the front page.




This is old news, check out the article!!!!

One thing I will let out to wet your appetites is that the 4ES does NOT use a SHARC Processor.

Sony cleverly slipped out the more expensive, higher quality SHARC Processor found in the 5ES and the 9000ES, and replaced it with a less expensive RISC Processor. &nbsp;As usual, they are living off the names of the higher quality predecessors to market their new products.

There are a number of nice features about the new Sony STR-DA4ES and 7ES, but there are also many shortcomings that will be discussed in detail when the review is completed. For starters, I am convinced that Sony has lost touch with user interface and remote controls. &nbsp;They are spending too much time and money to add the LCD displays, but most of the practical access buttons and commands are not easy to find.

The article has taken longer than expected because of the challenge it was finding all the specs on the new Sony Processors and D/A Converters found in the 4ES and 7ES. &nbsp;I had to go to a multiple Manufacturers Representative to find the spec sheets and managed to convince them to send me a CD with all the info on all the Sony IC's. &nbsp;The pertinent info will indeed be included in the upcoming article. &nbsp;

Sorry for the delay, but I'm putting everything I can find into this article and comparison.

Also, this review would not be possible if it wasn't the generosity of Jim Oade at Oade Brothers (www.oade.com). Equipment is not cheap and having someone like Jim, who is interested in participating in the pursuit of 'the truth in audio,' is a blessing to all us Audioholics. &nbsp;

Thanks Jim : )

If you're in the market for equipment at a competitive price, check them out. &nbsp;Let them know that Audioholics sent you and they'll set you up with an extra discount.

Stevie D
Audioholics Staff

Oade Brothers</font>

 

[RLA]

<font color='#000000'>Hi
I am looking forward to this review
the 9000 is indeed a formidable piece and was ahead of its time when released  The 4ES looks good on paper for the $$
Will you be  bypassing the internal amps of the 4ES and comparing only the pre amp sections?  I hope the 4ES is as good or better than the DA5ES it replaces.
Ray</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>Greetings Ray,

I'm glad to see your interest. &nbsp;It is my goal to use the Sherbourn Amplifier for both the processor and receiver in 5 channel modes. &nbsp;I also intend to compare both units in two channel by using the 4ES amplifier for both sources.

This will give me an idea of how the Sony Amplifier is, and also a fair test of both units in an isolated environment in two channel stereo.

I'm about 1/2 way through the article and have some great pictures and things to share. &nbsp;I'm thinking of also including some pictures and thoughts about the remote controls.

Regards,
Stevie D</font>

 

[GermanMan]

<font color='#000000'>If possible, it would be nice to not and differences, improvements and or problems of the 4ES as compared to the 5ES as well.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Regarding the DA4ES review, it would be great if comparisons could be made against the DA7ES (quality of power supply, sound, etc). Also, the only Sony ever really lauded by the critics was the classic DA777ES. Do these new units have the &quot;push-pull&quot; power supply, do they stack up against the old unit in terms of quality of sound? How do they guard against being under-powered now that there are 7 channels on the same supply vs.5?
&nbsp;I would think the DA4ES would be quite a value if it's competetive in build and sound quality to the Denon 3802/4802 and the Onkyo 898.
&nbsp;Please hurry with this review, I am wanting to buy a new receiver and the Sony DA4 and DA7 are 2 of my considerations. Way to go.</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>Paul,

I encourage you to register when you post comments so that we may respond directly to you and answer your questions : )

For an update, we have found the sound quality of the 4ES a bit weak and lacking. &nbsp;The Analog direct and the Digital modes tend to be a bit lifeless and bright. &nbsp;

The article is taking longer than expected because most of the processors and D/A converters are Sony products and there is no public spec's available. &nbsp;I have a source that is sending me the information and hope to have it included in the article soon.

As for your receiver decision, I still think it's best to go sepearates, but on a budget, I would consider other receivers before the 4 and 7 ES's.

Sony tends to come out with a first run, such as the 5ES, with the best of manufacturing techniques. &nbsp;They then pull it from the market, and come out with something that lives off the name, but lacks the quality. &nbsp;At this point, we feel the 4ES fits this model. &nbsp;Our only info on the 7ES now is that it has more power, but is built the same way as the 4ES. &nbsp;From what we can tell, the 4ES is not a push pull configuration, but the 9000ES definately is. &nbsp;Once we verify these issues, the article will be posted. &nbsp;We are making sure the information within it is correct though.

Please keep looking at this site for more info. &nbsp;The article will be done sooooooon. &nbsp;I promise.

Cheers!</font>

 

[RLA]

<font color='#000000'>Hi Steve
Can you get a good look at the DAC on the 4ES or is it
burried? If so can you tell me what the production
number is on the SHARC if it is printed ? Also is there any thing inbetween the Analog inputs and the Volume Control
on the 4ES?or does it bypass also the firmware ver #
Thanks
Ray</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>Ray,

I have been able to access most of the chips in the 4ES and all this will be included in my article. &nbsp;I also have most of them tagged with the manufacturer specifications. &nbsp;

I'm still trying to verify the truth in this, but it appears that the 4ES does NOT use a SHARC Processor as does the 9000ES. &nbsp;I have searched high and low, short of pulling the darn thing apart, and can not find any SHARC Processor in this unit. &nbsp;I believe is is now being done with a Sony proprietary unit, which I will find the specs on.

Regards,
Stevie D</font>

 

[jason69]

<font color='#000000'>Just waiting on what you guys have to say about the DA4ES?
I am a happy owner of the 7ES, have had it about a week and watched Fifth Element (SuperBit) &amp; &nbsp; Monsters Inc. &nbsp;which blew me away!!! A must have DVD. HT sounds Great, But a little disappointed in 2 Channel for music. and 2 channel A+B room. It shuts off the Sub &quot;unlike my STRDA80ES&quot; Haven't worked with it enough on music and need advise on configuring the 'Mains B&amp;W 604s2&quot; to large or small, I tend to go with large for Music &amp; Video, but am I straining my amp and speakers They are really jumping when I crank it up. If I do config. small on HT it sounds great when I lower to 40Hz. One concern though, Is there a gap if I set my sub at 40Hz my receiver at 40Hz? because the 604 frequency response specs. say 44Hz - 20kHz. Is there a 4Hz gap? Do I need to set the Sub at 50 or 60 just to have a little overlap? Or am I ok because I should be looking at the freq. range spec. which is -6db at 34Hz and 30hz. &nbsp;
One more thing I'm having a little trouble with the remote but getting better, the manual is poor. The display dimly lit. I wish it was as bright &amp; blue as my RMAV3000.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Hi guys,

Here are my two cents, in any case not to be taken as expert advice but mere observations....
I've had previously the STR-DB930 for about 2 years. When these new receivers came up decided to upgrade. Got a DA-4ES from J&amp;R for $639 + tax and played with it for the past three weeks. Today I went again to J&amp;R and a salesman was nice enough to let me peek inside the DA-7ES. So here it goes:
They both weigh about the same, which is also specified in their common manual. They have an identical power supply except for the fact that the 7ES has the ES logo on top of it. They use the same Sanken SAP17 transistors, mounted on the same heat sinks. Capacitance rated at 30000 microF, the same as my old STR-DB930. Soundwise the DA-4ES is good but not great. I also strongly suspect that it does not have even 2/3 of the rated power. What else? Huge amounts of heat emanating from the heatsinks; I was forced to purchase another TV stand and add a fan. Things are just a bit cooler now. I keep wondering how does SONY justify a $1300 price difference between the 4 and 7. Probably is pure marketing. Also from a quality build point of view, this new generation continues SONY's declining trend. (use cheaper components, charge customers more) So you will say, why did you get the SONY then? Well, I've been pleased with their DVP-S7700 DVD player, XA-20ES CD player and some other products as well. Always wondered why people never talk seriously about the ES line of receivers. Now I know why ... And I also agree with the previous reviewer who said that SONY builds a great product first than takes it off the market and profits from its good reputation by selling a ton of quasi junk instead.

Cheers and happy listening ... and can't wait for the &quot;pro&quot; opinion</font>

 

[GermanMan]

<font color='#000000'>That ES designation on the power supply in the 7es vs the 4es may be where the extra 10watts of power come from (or whatever the difference between the 2 models was) in that they test the power supplies they get for delivery and stability and cleanliness of power and those that make the cuttoff get the ES logo and go into the 7es and those that don't go into the 4es without the log. &nbsp;Same sort of thing as microprocessor production and the clock frequency they are rated at.

Given the price of some of the sony remotes (as replacements) the giant tablet sized looking 2-way remote that comes with the 7es may well bump up the cost $500 (you get a 2nd room remote too with the 7es - did you find out or does it say in the book - is that remote an RF device such that you could use it in a 2nd room that is out of line of sight?)

For me, achieving maxiumum rated power has never been an interest, as I've never run my amp anywhere near the top of its range - my current old amp the STR-AV1020, runs with the knob no higher than around 30% for the most part unless I'm listening to a low level audio signal such as Comedy Central on cable or from my laptop - and then its up at 50%. &nbsp;Of course that box runs hot too - must be a sony thing. &nbsp;That isn't necessarily a bad thing - running hot - so long as the design is right that the head dissipation keeps the temperature in that proper operating range the circuits are designed for, its fine. &nbsp;Might there not also be a problem if the ciruit is running too cool such that the charactceristics of the capacitive and inductive and even semi-conductor components change from their designed performance, affecting the resulting output?

Anyhow, I'm too anxious about this review wich is now 1 week overdue on the initial mid-September projected date. &nbsp;See what happens when you set a date - you always get in trouble over it. &nbsp;

</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>Dear GermanMan,

Thanks for pointing out the delay in the article. &nbsp;Most of the problem I had is that there is no information posted on the new Processors and DA Converters in the 4ES. &nbsp;I checked high and low and even contacted Sony Semiconducters.

Appearantly, they don't want us to have the info. &nbsp;That's OK though, I found a way of getting it, but it took me over a week of busting my hump.

It will all pan out in the end. &nbsp;Thanks for everyones patience. &nbsp;Believe me when I tell you, it's coming.

Cheers</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I'm from Australia and recently just bought a STR-VA555ES which is DA5ES in USA. I would be interested in know how the d4es do against the D5es if thats possible. I just dont understand how Sony can offer more features at a lesser price, I always suspects that they did some costing cutting to the newer models but just dont know where.

In Sydney the Da5es cost $3500 RRP, I bought mine for $2500. The new Da4es cost less than the Da5es according to my dealer but he did not give the exact amount.

One of the reason I bought the Da5es was because of the review conducted here on audioholics. I'm quite happy with my investment. My system consist of Tannoy Saturn S60 mains, Saturn S6c Centre, Tannoy MX-2 Surrounds, and MK MX105 Sub &nbsp;

.

One last thing, I never have any problems with the Da5s heating up, runs quite cool after a few movies.

Thanks in advance</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>Greetings to the Australian,

Audioholics was extremely pleased with the 5ES. &nbsp;You are correct that Sony does have a habbit marketing the first product with superior electronics and quality at a good price, then offering model spin offs that live off the name.

The 4ES is a great Receiver, no doubt, but in our initial reviews, we find it lacking compared to the 5ES. &nbsp;This makes sense if you think of how Sony markets their products, as mentioned above. The 5ES is no longer available or we would have included it in our review. &nbsp;I do know for sure that the Semiconductors in the 5ES are not the same as what's in the 4ES.</font>

 

[RLA]

<font color='#000000'>Hi Jason
The 604 is not a full range speaker,There Advertised &nbsp;cut off is -3db at 44 Hz &nbsp;They are closer to 50Hz in the room
I would set them to small and set the crossover to &nbsp;60hz
on the Sony.If your subwoofer has a crossover bypass
use it &nbsp;If not turn the subwoofers crossover to the max
position This will prevent crossover cascading and you will be
utilizing the very good bass management that the Sony has
I have mains that will play to 27Hz flat &nbsp;they are not full range speakers either and I set them to small &nbsp;If you dont
like the way the bass sounds like this then your subwoofer
is more than likely the problem.Keep in mind that when you
select the Multi Channel input &nbsp;a full range full bandwidth
signal will be sent to all speakers regardless of settings.
True full range speakers will play down in the teens
There are a few that will do this &nbsp;but they are Mega $$
speakers
Happy Listening
Ray</font>

 

[jason69]

<font color='#000000'>Thank You Ray,

Great info, and I thought I had full range towers. I have been tinkering with my 7ES on music and a few dvd's all weekend and I could not get it to sound as good as my STRDA-80ES, as far as bass goes. it just doesn't have the tight punch. I was trying mostly (small speakers). In the set up, the 7ES was kicked down to 40Hz &amp; I was tweaking the sub dial between 40Hz &amp; 50Hz. that could be why I had to dial in more volume on the sub and attenuate the 7es sub &nbsp;setting to +6db.

By any chance do you have a suggestion where I should start the Hz/kHz for the mids &amp; treble? The amp adjustable range is (MID 198 Hz to 10 kHz) and (TREBLE 1.0 kHz to 10 kHz)

I also like to keep the center the same because I thought the B&amp;W LCR-6s2 was a &nbsp;somewhat a full range center, being it's a 2&amp;1/2 way.

Thanks again…

Jason</font>

 

[Tai]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

jason69 : <font color='#000000'>By any chance do you have a suggestion where I should start the Hz/kHz for the mids &amp; treble? The amp adjustable range is (MID 198 Hz to 10 kHz) and (TREBLE 1.0 kHz to 10 kHz)</font>

<font color='#000000'>I would be interested in teawking with the equaliser too, if anybody body can help &nbsp;

Thanks in advance</font>

 

[RLA]

<font color='#000000'>Hi
The Sony has a very good EQ with lots of adjustability
however I would caution the use of the EQ to correct room or
placement problems,Fix thoes first then do very minor tweeking a DB or two at the most with the EQ
Everyones room is different so it is impossible to make EQ
adjustment reccomendations without doing &nbsp;Room Mode
and Room Profile &nbsp;computations &nbsp;I spend countless hours
hip deep in my model software just to get basic rooms
tuned correctly Room construction,Size,Materials,Glass,Floors
HVAC,Doors,Furniture,and system are just a few factors

Cheers Ray</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>I know I've been promising for too long now about this article, but it really is almost done. &nbsp;Most of my problem has been finding the correct information on the IC's used in the new 4ES. &nbsp;I have most of them nailed down now.

One thing I will let out to wet your appetites is that the 4ES does NOT use a SHARC Processor.

Sony cleverly slipped out the more expensive, higher quality SHARC Processor found in the 5ES and the 9000ES, and replaced it with a less expensive RISC Processor. &nbsp;As usual, they are living off the names of the higher quality predecessors to market their new products.

More detail on this, oh - much more, will be presented in the pending article.

Please Stay Tuned</font>

 

[RLA]

<font color='#000000'>Hi All
I can tell you for sure you dont want to miss Steve's
Face off &nbsp;Having read most of it I can say for sure it is
the most comprehensive in depth review I have read in a very long time lots of details &nbsp;It is well worth the wait
Cheers Ray</font>