Sonic difference in RCA interconnect male jacks

[Rob Babcock]

Conclusion: don't tell audiophiles nor audiophytes they just have too much imagination and are easy pray for marketing departments. Explain to them what they actually might be experiencing.

Hasta pronto
FA

I think we have told the audiophools what they're experiencing: we call it "the placebo effect." When you want to hear a difference badly enough, you'll hear it wether it's there or not.

 

[Unregistered]

Graz of PERIGEE ACOUSTICS

The measurements thing is a valid point, for certain. Most meters run a 200 ohm scale for resistance, and allow for 2% deviation (optimistic!). I run a low ohms meter that can measure down to 0.01 of an ohm. Just resistance. Oxidisation of the probes can add up to more than that, and as a percentage of detail I am certain you can hear more. Consider some speaker leads that measure identical on the same meter at 0.5 ohms - the error of probes and tollerance on this figure are quite high, and could be over 25% difference not registered!! Also, most resistance meters measure with DC, and audio's ac behaves differently. I would be the first to say that measurements are less reliable to obtain electronically than with listening to a known quantity.

Consider SACD/DVDA vs red book CD. I would bet many people here cannot hear past 22k. A couple of years I was tested personally to 21k, multiple test. I understand that is less than usual and a person past 30 can expect to be less sensitive to frequencies higher than about 15k. Therefore cd is adequate for most if not all of the population? Including all of those people that can hear to 22k? Upsampling dacs/cd players such as the Nuvista, PT etc., are they unable to compare to standard red book players? Measurements can be useful in targeted cases but all too often the final result is a combination of that what is traditionally measured, and that what is considered less important by the mainstream. For all those who disagree there is Bose ; )

Perhaps as a guide people in here should post their system's contents as a guide to the context in which opinions are based - not as a form of snobery - but as an open guide all could learn from. Just a thought. I post in the Apogee Users's forum regularly and there are quite a lot of longterm core users there, and a thread or two devoted to their current systems, quite useful.

Take care - Graz

 

[Rob Babcock]

We do have a section here for members systems. Just scroll down the page a little farther. Although I doubt many people here formed their opinions simply by listening to their own systems, especially concerning the audibility of cables, etc. The fallibility of your hearing & perceptions is the reason that DBT testing is often the preferred method of separating fact from high end fancy.

I doubt you're gonna get B(l)ose to offer up any measurements, though.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Don't forget measurements too

What would you measure on a 1" plug of solid copper with some silver thrown in or other exotica Better have some great instrumentation

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hello everybody, this is my first post here, so I will introduce myself briefly;-

My name is Graz, I am located in Australia, and manufacture ribbon loudspeakers using my own ribbons, and also manufacture oem ribbons.

System referred to - my home system;-

Nuvista 3D, Nuvista M3, Perigee biwire cables with Eichmann bullet terminations (crimp/my own high silver solder), Perigee FK1 Ribbon hybrid speakers (www.perigee.com.au).

My reason for being here - found the thread mentioning Boccino Audio connectors, read it and wanted to contribute my opinion.

I must say that I have been enjoying music and manufacturing kit for some time - and have uncovered many "myths", and as my equipment and knowledge improved this has been easier. The system described above has remained "as is" for 3 years now, with only one detail change, the interconnects. I have two sets of PRECIOUS METALS interconnects, bought from PM's Steve Williams (now departed), and have found them to be a good combination of detail and music when comapared to other cables, differences my system is well able to present in detail. Last year on advice from a couple of friends I tried replacing the WBT ends with Bocchinno Audio connectors. These connectors are substantial "lumps" of pure copper, silver plated - and when you see them you can feel the work that has gone into them - take a look at the pictures on the site http://www.bocchtech.com - mine are "B7" type, in silver plate not gold. BTW machining copper is no picnic - I know as a mfr of ribbon speakers!

I listened and found them to be better in a number of ways, particularly just a fine tweak in focus that my already well sorted and stable system could reveal. After a week I swapped back to the WBT/PM cables for a few days, and noticed the withdrawal of the positive effect - a confirmation. Slight but certainly noticable - I consider that the reality of these terminations is they simply connect the wire to the plug interface in a more conductive way. No snake oil, just an elaborate way of improving on an area of weakness in the audio chain. As mentioned before the system is well sorted, and cabling differences show up readily in such a system.

Reading the price of $3300 for some interconnects sounds scary - perhaps worth a listen! My interconnects from Precious Metals cost about £220 ($400?) with the WBT plugs on, and the Bocchinno plugs cost about $400 if I remember rightly, so I would guess roughly $700 value for interconnects in total would be right. Funnily enough the other interconnects I rated highly were the Cawsey ones using the same Bocchino termination, but I have no idea of the wire configuration. These were about $1500 if I remember...

Lastly - a polite observation. This site seems to have been developed with the idea of audio advancement through truth and open discussion of points - a good thing. Points such as "inactive listening" as raised before are interesting. And tod I have heard several "mystery" song lyrics unveiled from adjacent rooms! In any case - what should never be forgotten is the ammount of time a manufacturer can take to to design, develop, and get a product to a position of being able to offer it. Not all products are made with profits in mind, and in my experience the manufacturer has the last stoney bite of the "cherry" in the audio chain - where much of the real wages are acknowledged achievements and smiling faces of those who enjoy your products!

In peace - Graz

Hi, Graz.

In case you didn't research the psychoacoustic capability of the human hearing, you should spend a little time there.
Hearing is over rated most of the time in audio, given magical capabilities, hearing the unmeasurable.
Peer reviewed Journal article in JASA published one interesting article some years back about Just Noticable Differences. In a soundbooth, with headphones, and the very sensitive tones, the best was .2dB spl in the mid band frequencies where the ear is most sensitive, about 4kHz. It jumped to 3 dB spl at 16kHz. Most recently, in 2003, another research paper was presented at the Audio Engineering Convention using real music and other spounds. Not even close to that previous levels.

Do you think those connectors have such a large amount of signal attenuation that causes .2dB spl difference? or 3dB at 16kHz?

Now that is what I call real research, something that is tangible, repeatable, testable, every day of the week.

But, enjoyment is the key

 

[Unregistered]

Graz of PERIGEE ACOUSTICS

Measurable differences exist in lumps of brass vs copper (brass being the most common terminal material). Machining quality counts for a lot also in a good connection in both plug and socket - as microscopic ridges make for a lesser connection. Copper, being softer is more likely to conform to a better connection vs other materials. I can only speak from experience, largely in ribbon based audio systems that allow music to breathe!! I am curious - would the point being made by the people against using copper connectors be;-

1) "There is no difference in the performance of any brand of interconnect termination"
2) "There is no difference in interconnects"
3) "The differences well made copper vs other types of terminal plug is so small as to not warrant use in my ref system"

Curious - Graz

 

[Audioholics]

1) There is no measurable difference in the audible performance of any adequately constructed interconnect termination
2) Of course we do not believe that. nor do we believe that there are no differences in cables. We're talking about what is measurable and applicable to the human audible range (or even in the ballpark of that range)
3) The differences well made copper vs other types of terminal plug is so small as to not show a difference in the audible range assuming both connectors are sufficiently well manufacturered.

This isn't rocket science. Might we suggest you read some of our cable measurement articles before responding again. We aren't out to get anyone, however your reasoning is flawed and you are attempting to set up several straw-man arguments that are not applicable to the original topic or the replies in this thread.

 

[Unregistered]

Graz of PERIGEE ACOUSTICS

Hello Clint

I am curious - what exact system of measurement have you used to test various termination plugs? Equipment? If subjective DBT - what system? Were the tests doccumented? Was the outset objective to compare plugs? I would be quite interested in reading what brands plugs were tested during your test, and the overall outcome for each of the brands. Perhaps you could forward them to me? I always like to learn...

"Suffiiently well manufactured" is a broad definition. Like all things one man's measure can differ from another's both in expectation and percieved quality/quantity. I have met several who didn't care, and several who cared a lot and were not able to hear differences! Many "Joe 30+'s" have had events in life rob them of sensitivity to over 14k in frequency response, and agreed such people are less likely to hear interconnect/cable/connector changes, of course moreso if said cables are burried in the confines of a mediocre system.

Curious - Graz

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hello Clint

I am curious - what exact system of measurement have you used to test various termination plugs? Equipment? If subjective DBT - what system? Were the tests doccumented? Was the outset objective to compare plugs? I would be quite interested in reading what brands plugs were tested during your test, and the overall outcome for each of the brands. Perhaps you could forward them to me? I always like to learn...

"Suffiiently well manufactured" is a broad definition. Like all things one man's measure can differ from another's both in expectation and percieved quality/quantity. I have met several who didn't care, and several who cared a lot and were not able to hear differences! Many "Joe 30+'s" have had events in life rob them of sensitivity to over 14k in frequency response, and agreed such people are less likely to hear interconnect/cable/connector changes, of course moreso if said cables are burried in the confines of a mediocre system.

Curious - Graz

Well, you seem to be the original claimant for all these miracle issues. So, please, don't hesitate to answer your own question. Where was your listeing test documented, published or how can we find it?
What measurements do you come up with for this plug? DB attenuation?Frequency loss in dB?
Microscopic deformation of copper? How much does that add to any measured data? Please, use as much decimal places as you think is needed.

Actually, do you have any DBT data for audible differences in interconnects?
Tom Nousaine has been looking for 25 years. Maybe the wait is over?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Measurable differences exist in lumps of brass vs copper (brass being the most common terminal material).

OK, at what decimal place? Do you have the numbers? Very curious what a 1 inc of plug material measures: resistance, frequency response, distortion, capacitance since this is an interconnect plug, etc.

Machining quality counts for a lot also in a good connection in both plug and socket -

Yes, hopefully they fit.

as microscopic ridges make for a lesser connection.

Is this a subjective opinion? Or, based on published material that is a concern for audio?

Copper, being softer is more likely to conform to a better connection vs other materials.

Same as above.

I can only speak from experience, largely in ribbon based audio systems that allow music to breathe!!

??? Music breathes? I thought humans breath.

I am curious - would the point being made by the people against using copper connectors be;-

Who said we are against copper connectors? Maybe a wrong perception on your part.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Many "Joe 30+'s" have had events in life rob them of sensitivity to over 14k in frequency response, and agreed such people are less likely to hear interconnect/cable/connector changes, of course moreso if said cables are burried in the confines of a mediocre system.

Curious - Graz

I failed to respond to this section of your post.
It seems you are implying, perhaps, that interconnects and plugs come into play above 14kHz? I am now really interested in the frequency response or your interconnects vs ones from ordinary places, Target, Radio Shack, WalMart, on line stores, etc.
Why? Because I have yet to see an interconnect with worse than a .1 dB variation at 20kHz, measured by a real golden ear EE at another site, AND, JASA Peer Journal paper has set JND at 16kHz to 1dB best and 3 dB average.
So, unless you have some extraordinary evidence and data, I am still skeptical of your claims.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Hello Clint

Many "Joe 30+'s" have had events in life rob them of sensitivity to over 14k in frequency response, and agreed such people are less likely to hear interconnect/cable/connector changes, of course moreso if said cables are burried in the confines of a mediocre system.

Curious - Graz

So which are you, 'guest'-a "Joe-under-30" or someone lucky enough to be immune to the aforementioned age related hi freq hearing rolloff?

I guess you'd be the best one to state just what system is suitably resolving for these differences to be audible. No doubt one comprised of whatever products you sell, I'd imagine.

 

[Unregistered]

Graz of PERIGEE ACOUSTICS

Mtrycrafts - you seem to have an unwarranted anger over my expressed opinions over my choice of interconnects (PRECIOUS METALS) and termination for those (BOCCINNO AUDIO B7 SILVER). I hope that all of this negativity is not making you sad? Perhaps a nice unwind session to the beat of your favourite music may change the perspective - works for me!!

Just to cover the topics of the last 3 posts, bearing in mind I do not manufacture interconnects but have manufactured my own speaker cables - being a full time speaker/ribbon manufacturer leaves little time to tackle others speciality endeavours;-

TESTS - none undertaken with meter based measurements. However as detailed in my first post I originally tried my own undoccumented "listening only" comparisons - with the percieved results being enough that I bought the connectors for their asking price. I was actually only curious at the start - and invested in the product after it had proven itself, a lesson learned. As I understand it you have NOT done tests or experienced the effect yourself? Perhaps give it a try, as I did - and let me know how you go.

HEARING. Frequency response was my form of communication for the purpose of the post. Hearing drop-off takes many forms I am told by some of my well informed doctor clients, generally in the form of unwanted background noise that affects an individual's ability to discern differences in softer or more detailed music. I am 38, and have been blessed with a good standard of hearing, and do my bestto take care of it - as audio is my full time profession. In addition to this I often consult friends and clients for second opinions.

SYSTEMS. Many systems are fine for this cause. Pleasae also consider the audiophiles that are of the opinion that "boxes count, accesories don't" are often using/enjoying equipment that is the sum of the designer's experience of all "improvements" he/she has encountered. I manufacture full speakers under the PERIGEE brand, and ribbons for many speakers including Apogee. No other products. I will not push my products here, as I am contributing on a Friday night "off duty" - for pleasure! I will say though - a ribbon based system suitably driven is a great revealer of detail often lost on cones and domes, in my experience. My opinion on this has turned into my lifes work!!

METALS. In the old days people believed that there were a few elements! These days Earth Wind & Fire (what happened to water?) are a band and we use the periodic table! Do a search on the web, and read some of the basic electrical properties of the favourite interconnect terminal materials. Also consider skin effect can touch the terminals, as they are in fact an extension of the cable. Post machine polish, plating, care etc all contribute inside the interconnect as well as inside the box!

STATISTICS. This one makes me smile!! WHAT exactly are we measuring in a system? Consider the Apogee Scintilla used with Krell amplifiers and digital front end, and any Bose system. What has the flatter in room response? The BOSE, in published measurements. The Apogee by comparison is a roller coaster! But it often sounds convincingly REAL.

14k and the 20k BRICK WALL MEASURING FILTER. Today I am working with some ICE amplifier modules, having no fun with digital harmonics breakthrough as loud as to be intrusive. This is RF "beat". Not sure if the 20k test would show it? In a world of unwanted rf cables etc that can minimise this all would help our music breathe, bringing me to my last point MUSIC BREATHING. Those who have experienced this know what they are looking for in a good system. That REAL sound. This is what I was referring to.

In summery, nobody here has conducted such tests, or has the interest to do so and, I do not manufacture interconnects or terminals but bought with money I earned working manufacturing audio what I believe to be good ones that I continue to use (as did the first poster in this thread with his $3300 ones) and, some here believe that there is nothing better available than what they are currently using and happy with! Sounds like we are all doing well, and all should be happy.

Take care - Graz

 

[markw]

It's kinda hard to argue with someone who says he's seen Elvis.

I won't even bother. But, watching them try to convince others that he HAS seen the King and we didin't because we didn't know where to go and what to look for is priceless.

But, sometimes, if he says it enough times to enough people, some just mightr be taken in. Then he'll sell 'em a piece of his clothing or a sweaty towel.

Sometimes, subjectivity can be a real hoot. Rather than insist others provide proof of nulls, it would be nice if you offered something concrete instead of "I know what I heard so you must believe me".

Good salesmen can get rich off of snake oil, just like charasmatic preachers can systematicaly fleece their flock. Say "hey" to bigfoot the next time he and the King pick you up for a ride in their UFO, willya?

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

And with that, perhaps we should move on. Graz, as you have surmised by now this forum is strongly sceptical/scientific in orientation; you're fighting a losing battle here.

I'm making an "executive decision" to lock the thread.