something's wrong over there ...

mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080215/ap_on_re_us/niu_shooting

like I said before, somebody needs to do some checking on why this is happening:

my theories:
1) people see this on the news, think they can also go out with a bang ... this will be endless

2) crazy people can get guns (article says he missed his medication) - the VA tech guy was a looney too.

3) someone is hitting you guys with subliminal messages targetting these loonies to do these things. (conspiracy theory: catcher in the rye)
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
I have no idea Mike...

Perhaps a combination of all three? It seems like every day you turn around there is another shooting like this these days. I think it really just boils down to some severely disturbed individuals who lack the ability to think rationally and reason like a normal person. It's been shown that many of these kids are the proverbial outcasts in school - not an easy thing for a teenager mind you as petty as it seems to us old men - and the lack of family structure (or blatant obliteration of it as the case for many) leads these kids on a path to eventual destruction - their one last big act, saying "F*** you" to the world before rolling out in a blaze of (by their own perceptions) glory.

Yet the reality of it is simply horrific and tragic and sad all at the same time. :(
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080215/ap_on_re_us/niu_shooting

like I said before, somebody needs to do some checking on why this is happening:

my theories:
1) people see this on the news, think they can also go out with a bang ... this will be endless

2) crazy people can get guns (article says he missed his medication) - the VA tech guy was a looney too.

3) someone is hitting you guys with subliminal messages targetting these loonies to do these things. (conspiracy theory: catcher in the rye)
Yeah, mike, unfortunately it's really nothing new. There's all kinds of people out there that are just ready to SNAP when they're pushed.

People with mental disorders, money problems, woman problems...whatever. That's why the smart ones know when to quit...before he's pushed over the edge. Imho, most of these cases are difficult, if not impossible to detect beforehand. But it seems that now even those in grade school that get bullied or laughed at too much hunt down their nemisis like dogs. Treat people with respect, and report any suspicious behavior/attitudes to...? Or, remain vigilant.
 
C

chadnliz

Senior Audioholic
I think it has to do with many factors not mimited too but including.... technology, video games de-sensitize troubled youth, along with parental rights slipping away (spanking is evil too FAR too many and is needed) you simply ground a kid in his room with his games, internet and cell phone... also many youth want fame and fortune, when they cant get fortune some very troubled kids go for fame by shooting the general population they feel have wronged them. I also think kids are finding it harder and harder to deal with normal teasing and competition past youth had dealt with and became stronger from, nobody "looses" anything, no games are allowed that might hurt a kids feelings and everyone gets a turn and in many times a trophy.......youth are no longer as equiped to deal with normal dispointment. All of these problems go smack dab to radical liberal do gooders and we are all increasingly paying the price as a society at large.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
Yeah, but what has changed in the last couple of decades?

Is it the parents? My parents both worked and left me alone all day.

Is it the availability of guns? Guns have been around forever.

Is it violent video games? Who knows. But look at how violent the old school cartoons were.

There have and will continue to be kids that get picked on and are outcasts until the end of time. Sorry, but that's a fact of life deal with it. What is society has changed that kids can't deal with a little adversity anymore?
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Revenge against society at large by perceived/actual abuses.
 
1

10010011

Senior Audioholic
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080215/ap_on_re_us/niu_shooting

like I said before, somebody needs to do some checking on why this is happening:

my theories:
1) people see this on the news, think they can also go out with a bang ... this will be endless

2) crazy people can get guns (article says he missed his medication) - the VA tech guy was a looney too.

3) someone is hitting you guys with subliminal messages targetting these loonies to do these things. (conspiracy theory: catcher in the rye)
I would have to say #1 is the biggest thing contributer, crazy people have always been able to get guns.

News is no longer just about reporting the story. Now it's all about ratings, controversy, bad news, doom, gloom, sex, and violence sells.

This horrible event will be top of he news, talks shows, and special reports for weeks to come.

More people on the edge will see it and decide they want to go down in history too.:(
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
A lot of reasons already mentioned. Sometimes people simply have a head of bad wiring with no explanation.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Yeah, but what has changed in the last couple of decades?

Is it the parents? My parents both worked and left me alone all day.

Is it the availability of guns? Guns have been around forever.

Is it violent video games? Who knows. But look at how violent the old school cartoons were.

There have and will continue to be kids that get picked on and are outcasts until the end of time. Sorry, but that's a fact of life deal with it. What is society has changed that kids can't deal with a little adversity anymore?

I'm not sure what has changed, although I have a hard time calling a 27 year old graduate student a kid. People are capable of hiding immense mental problems, and it's difficult to judge inner turmoil from the outside. There are people who seemingly have a great life, but, inside they are dead. Worse than dead, actually... they are numb. Some of the most intelligent, seemingly fine, people, can be the sadest.

Maybe teachers need to be trained or concealed carry permits should extend to on campus, allowing law abiding students and teachers to protect themselves and others.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
I'm not sure what has changed, although I have a hard time calling a 27 year old graduate student a kid. People are capable of hiding immense mental problems, and it's difficult to judge inner turmoil from the outside. There are people who seemingly have a great life, but, inside they are dead. Worse than dead, actually... they are numb. Some of the most intelligent, seemingly fine, people, can be the sadest.

Maybe teachers need to be trained or concealed carry permits should extend to on campus, allowing law abiding students and teachers to protect themselves and others.
i will have to disagree about arming students or teachers ... i believe that will introduce more problems that it can fix.
 
Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
I have no idea Mike...

Perhaps a combination of all three? It seems like every day you turn around there is another shooting like this these days. I think it really just boils down to some severely disturbed individuals who lack the ability to think rationally and reason like a normal person. It's been shown that many of these kids are the proverbial outcasts in school - not an easy thing for a teenager mind you as petty as it seems to us old men - and the lack of family structure (or blatant obliteration of it as the case for many) leads these kids on a path to eventual destruction - their one last big act, saying "F*** you" to the world before rolling out in a blaze of (by their own perceptions) glory.

Yet the reality of it is simply horrific and tragic and sad all at the same time. :(

Yes, as cbraver mentioned, this was not a kid. He had already graduated, and worked since. He was continuing to take some follow-up courses. 27 years of age, he was most certainly an adult.

As far as reasons? meh, there is no way to give an exact prognosis. The fact is the only one with the real answers to that question took himself out after he finished his work. Investigations might reveal attributing factors, but nothing to give a difinite answer.

Arming students is a poor solution, the fact remains that these mass university murders are a relatively infrequent occurence. Far more cases of assault, etc are the case, and arming students will only aggrivate or worsen the outcome of incidents that are minor in comparisson to this sort of thing.

Arming teachers is nearly as bad, I've had the benefit of extensive weapons handling and I can say for certain that the average Joe is as likely to miss his target and potentially injure or kill non-combatants. In fact, I've done work with local and federal law enforcement in Canada and I can say for a fact that even a large portion of these trained individuals lack the proficiency for 100% round accountability.

Some might say more stringent firearms laws and controls is the solution, my view on that is that even with that you will still find committed individuals who will obtain them in order to carry out crimes. This type of situation appears to me atleast to be unpredictable, and unpreventable. I am sorry for the families who lost their loved ones.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Yeah, but what has changed in the last couple of decades?

Is it the parents? My parents both worked and left me alone all day.

Is it the availability of guns? Guns have been around forever.

Is it violent video games? Who knows. But look at how violent the old school cartoons were.

There have and will continue to be kids that get picked on and are outcasts until the end of time. Sorry, but that's a fact of life deal with it. What is society has changed that kids can't deal with a little adversity anymore?
Well, apparently for some here it's about cartoons...violent cartoons. I see the mindset. I don't know if there are any licensed sociologists/psychologists on board, but a lot more has changed than cartoons and "pressure" in American society over the past twenty years...far more than the twenty year period preceding it. Everything's changed.

I'm not here to educate anyone on this, but if anyone believes it's just about a little pressure, they've got their heads in the sand. I'm not remotely suggesting that's an excuse for their actions as your trite response suggests. But there are reasons they act this way. Your failure to be cognizant of it, or anyone's inability to grasp that simple concept (though it is a complex issue when one considers all the derivatives) does not make it so.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Yes, as cbraver mentioned, this was not a kid. He had already graduated, and worked since. He was continuing to take some follow-up courses. 27 years of age, he was most certainly an adult.
I'm pretty sure he was a graduate student, not a graduated student. 27 year old graduate students are pretty common, especially PhD candidates. Doctoral students are generally there 5-9 years after their undergraduate, depending on the program and their success. I have some late-20 aged students in my undergrad courses though. When people think of college, they seem to think of only the 19 year olds binge drinking and snorting coke off a just-got-out-of-the-house girls ***. That's really just a fraction of the college community. But, to the same end, I agree with ya.

I say that to say this: This isn't a troubled kid problem, it's a troubled American problem.

As far as reasons? meh, there is no way to give an exact prognosis. The fact is the only one with the real answers to that question took himself out after he finished his work. Investigations might reveal attributing factors, but nothing to give a difinite answer.
The extra mind**** here is that he was studying self-injury in the prison systems.

Arming students is a poor solution, the fact remains that these mass university murders are a relatively infrequent occurence. Far more cases of assault, etc are the case, and arming students will only aggrivate or worsen the outcome of incidents that are minor in comparisson to this sort of thing.

Arming teachers is nearly as bad, I've had the benefit of extensive weapons handling and I can say for certain that the average Joe is as likely to miss his target and potentially injure or kill non-combatants. In fact, I've done work with local and federal law enforcement in Canada and I can say for a fact that even a large portion of these trained individuals lack the proficiency for 100% round accountability.
I know that will probably never be a popular opinion, but, that's how I feel. 100% round accountability is negligible when you have a guy on a stage firing into a crowd of students. The Supreme court has ruled it's not the responsibility of the government to protect you, and therefore it is yours. As far as people thinking that small fights will suddenly become big deadly ones if students with concealed carry permits can carry on campus, 48 shall issue states have seen otherwise with the general public. And, honestly, most college students are a lot more mature than the general public. The big scare when Florida passed concealed carry laws was just that, but people will concealed carry permits turned out to be a cops best friend.

That said, I'm not expecting my view to be a popular one, and it certainly would need to be well thought out. I'm not saying it's the solution, but I think it should be considered. So, don't rag on me too hard. ;)

Some might say more stringent firearms laws and controls is the solution, my view on that is that even with that you will still find committed individuals who will obtain them in order to carry out crimes. This type of situation appears to me atleast to be unpredictable, and unpreventable. I am sorry for the families who lost their loved ones.
No doubt. Gun control doesn't work. A lot realize that now though, and that's (in my opinion) why shall issue has increased to 48 states. I'm sure some gun-grabbers will be going crazy over this one though. This next election we have gun-grabbers lined up for presidency. I'm buying a bunch of AR-15 lowers pretty soon, because if someone like Obama gets in I bet he'll probably attempt to pass some unconstitutional laws.

Unlike most Americans, I'm not willing to give up freedom to psuedo-security and fear.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
The Supreme court has ruled it's not the responsibility of the government to protect you, and therefore it is yours.
Good post cbraver. I just took exception to this one statement. Let's not spread unwarranted fear. It's not that the government doesn't have the duty to protect you...because they absolutely do. The Supreme Court could never constitutionally rule that way. There is no recourse against the government in a case such as this is a more accurate statement. Cheers, John
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Good post cbraver. I just took exception to this one statement. Let's not spread unwarranted fear. It's not that the government doesn't have the duty to protect you...because they absolutely do. The Supreme Court could never constitutionally rule that way. There is no recourse against the government in a case such as this is a more accurate statement. Cheers, John

Nod, you're absolutely correct. I should have clarified that, it was not my intention to spread fear.:D They do have the duty, they just can't be held accountable if they don't in the eyes of the law. But, that, to me, says that it's my responsibility to protect myself. Not the governments. And that's not a fault of the government, it's just plain impossible for them to protect everyone.
 
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Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
IMHO cbraver was talking more from a personal responsibility standpoint.

Even if the Supreme court ruled that it was the government's responsibility to protect all of us. They couldn't possibly do it; insofar as it being physically impossible.The ruling would be an unenforceable law.
Just my 2 cents,
Rick:)
I type too slowly cbraver beat me to it.
 
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J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
IMHO cbraver was talking more from a personal responsibility standpoint.

Even if the Supreme court ruled that it was the government's responsibility to protect all of us. They couldn't possibly do it; insofar as it being physically impossible.The ruling would be an unenforceable law.
Just my 2 cents,
Rick:)
I type too slowly cbraver beat me to it.
Well, thanks for the 2 cents Rickster, but that's not at all what he wrote. What he wrote was rather plain, and untrue. I too suspected that's what he meant, so I asked for a clarification...and got it. Otherwise, there was a newsflash that the Supreme Court just ruled the government no longer has to protect us! :eek: All cleared up now. Thanks. :)
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
I have to admit that the initial thought of pistol-packing teachers and professors may seem like a great idea at first, but in reality I believe it would turn these kinds of situations into a warzone, possibly putting more lives at risk than necessary.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Well, thanks for the 2 cents Rickster, but that's not at all what he wrote. What he wrote was rather plain, and untrue. I too suspected that's what he meant, so I asked for a clarification...and got it. Otherwise, there was a newsflash that the Supreme Court just ruled the government no longer has to protect us! :eek: All cleared up now. Thanks. :)
Exactly. What I meant by it (although I worded it very poorly) is that although the government has a duty to protect us (and I believe they take this job VERY seriously), they aren't legally liable if you get robbed, killed, raped, or shot in a classroom. So, like Rickster said, I feel that it's an Americans personal responsibility to protect themselves and their family. Not the governments. The government does their best to try, but they can't save everyone. I completely understand and agree with those rulings - they make sense to me.

If someone breaks into my home, for example, I'll call 911 right away, but not before grabbing a gun. This creates an environment that is not conductive for criminal on victim crime (but doesn't make a difference in criminal on criminal crime) and is the basis for shall issue, Castle Doctrine and Stand-Your-Ground. Criminals, in many states, now have to worry about not only law enforcement, but also citizens, homeowners, and family. This has put the law in favor of the law abiding citizens, rather than criminals. For the struggles we have had in America this decade, these laws have really been a step forward. I hope the next president doesn't take us a step back, but, this shooting and VT will certainly be a catalyst for such.

I'm truely lost with what to do about protecting campuses. It's sad that I even need to consider the need for firearms on campuses. These places should be for learning, and growth. The sick few, ruining something special.
 
1

10010011

Senior Audioholic
Unlike most Americans, I'm not willing to give up freedom to psuedo-security and fear.
Interesting, so how do you feel about the "Patriot" Act and other civil rights and privacy stripping laws and spying immunity's the current administration has passed to keep us "safe" from terrorists?
 

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