Some Advise Please

[Vochslu]

Before I ask here is my system.

Yamaha RX-A1010
RTi-A7 (x4 - R,L,RR,RL)
CSi-A6 (center)
Polk Pro500 (x2 - front and back)

I'm fairly satisfied with my system as it is but of course everything can always use a tweak. I need to crank up my system to about -5 DB for decent amount of sound. I know these speakers can be brighter and louder. I also know that Yamaha starts to get a little distorted on all of their amps past -16db. Currently my speakers are not bi-amped but I can/will do that very soon. Question, will this brighten them up a little more or at least make it seem a little more efficient? Will I still need to crank them to get the sound I want or will it make it a little better? Should I just get an amp and use the pre-outs for the front 2?

I just want to get the most out of my speakers. I am a electronics salesman and have pretty easy access to anything at cost so, thats not much of a concern.

Don't tell me to switch speakers or my receiver, its not happening please, want to work with what I have.

Thanks guys!!

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Before I ask here is my system.

Yamaha RX-A1010
RTi-A7 (x4 - R,L,RR,RL)
CSi-A6 (center)
Polk Pro500 (x2 - front and back)

I'm fairly satisfied with my system as it is but of course everything can always use a tweak. I need to crank up my system to about -5 DB for decent amount of sound. I know these speakers can be brighter and louder. I also know that Yamaha starts to get a little distorted on all of their amps past -16db. Currently my speakers are not bi-amped but I can/will do that very soon. Question, will this brighten them up a little more or at least make it seem a little more efficient? Will I still need to crank them to get the sound I want or will it make it a little better? Should I just get an amp and use the pre-outs for the front 2?

I just want to get the most out of my speakers. I am a electronics salesman and have pretty easy access to anything at cost so, thats not much of a concern.

Don't tell me to switch speakers or my receiver, its not happening please, want to work with what I have.

Thanks guys!!

If you like loud then external high power amps will help.

What are all the speaker and crossover settings set up at in your receiver? All 5 speakers set to small and crossing over @ 80hz is a good starting point to relieve amplifier stress.

 

[FirstReflection]

Well the first step is going to be describing (or better yet, providing a diagram or picture) of your room and placement of speakers, seating, furniture, doorways, any other openings, etc.

The room is a full 50% of any sound system, so trying to solve any speaker, subwoofer or amplifier concerns without knowing about the room is just a recipe for spinning wheels and wild guesses

There might be ways to address your room's acoustics or simply the placement of your speakers and seating within your room that will provide the changes you are seeking.

Once we have the room and placement sorted out, the next step is calibration of your equipment. Technically speaking, when your receiver's volume reads "0 (zero) dB" you are supposed to get 85dB at your seat with a THX reference level test tone. You are also meant to have 20dB of headroom with the volume set to "zero dB" so that you can hit the reference 105dB peaks for very short bursts at a time.

In truth, the number on the volume readout doesn't mean anything. It is a relative value. What you are supposed to do is set the volume to zero dB, play a THX reference level test tone (you can easily do this from any THX certified DVD or Blu-ray using the THX Optimizer found in the disc's menu), and measure 85dB on an accurate SPL meter at your primary seat. You are meant to use the "Speaker Level" or "Trim" controls in your receiver's setup menu to adjust each speaker channel's output so that you get the intended 85dB output with this scenario.

Once you have your speaker levels all adjusted in this way, you can set the volume where ever you like, according to your personal preference for loudness. an 85dB average with 105dB peaks is far too loud for most people's tastes. Most people prefer something closer to a 75dB average. So for most people, setting the volume dial to "-10dB" results in the desired loudness if they have properly calibrated their speaker levels.

If your room is too large or your seating distance is too far away, you might find that you have the volume set to "zero dB", you're playing a THX reference level test tone, you have the speaker level pushed all the way up to its maximum in your receiver's menu, and your SPL meter is still reading below 85dB at your seat. If this is the case, you require either more amplifier power, more efficient speakers, or both.

However, in most typical homes, it is rare to run into this problem. In fact, in many rooms, you will actually have the volume set to "zero dB", be playing a THX reference level test tone, you'll have the speaker level adjusted all the way down to the minimum setting, and the SPL meter will still be reading something louder than 85dB at the seat! If that is the case, you simply want to back the volume down 10, 15 or 20dB, adjust the speaker levels in the receiver's menu so that you get 85dB with the THX test tone at your seat, and then simply remember that your "new" reference level is -10dB, -15dB, -20dB or whatever it ends up being instead of zero dB.

So let's figure out your room, your placement and your calibration before we start worrying about bi-amping, new amps, new speakers or any of that stuff! A change of gear is not always the solution. Very often, simply optimizing the gear you already have can get you what you are looking for!

Hope this helps

 

[fuzz092888]

What first reflection said is true, but what he's talking about is the room affecting the sound of the speakers. I think what you're talking about is that amp on the yamaha clipping, which is entirely possible (almost definite), especially since the A7s are power hungry and you're trying to power 7 speakers, 4 of which are the A7s. Someone else who has the A7s asked this question not too long ago. In my own personal opinion and based on my own experience and the experiences of others, the A7s and the A9s need 200 wpc minimum and 300 wpc is probably best, especially if you like to turn up your system.

Theres no way your yamaha is delivering anywhere near that, and more power should clear up that distortion since it is almost definitely the amp clipping.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Technically speaking, when your receiver's volume reads "0 (zero) dB" you are supposed to get 85dB at your seat with a THX reference level test tone. You are also meant to have 20dB of headroom with the volume set to "zero dB" so that you can hit the reference 105dB peaks for very short bursts at a time.

In truth, the number on the volume readout doesn't mean anything. It is a relative value. What you are supposed to do is set the volume to zero dB, play a THX reference level test tone (you can easily do this from any THX certified DVD or Blu-ray using the THX Optimizer found in the disc's menu), and measure 85dB on an accurate SPL meter at your primary seat. You are meant to use the "Speaker Level" or "Trim" controls in your receiver's setup menu to adjust each speaker channel's output so that you get the intended 85dB output with this scenario.

Once you have your speaker levels all adjusted in this way, you can set the volume where ever you like, according to your personal preference for loudness. an 85dB average with 105dB peaks is far too loud for most people's tastes. Most people prefer something closer to a 75dB average. So for most people, setting the volume dial to "-10dB" results in the desired loudness if they have properly calibrated their speaker levels.
...Hope this helps

Well, all this depends on the source test tone level: is it at -20 dB FS or -30 dB FS. For home setup the test discs are -30 dB FS so the master volume is at 0 and spl meter reads 75 dB spl.
And, if it is a THX receiver the master volume goes to 0 automatically when internal test tone is selected.

 

[Vochslu]

Theres no way your yamaha is delivering anywhere near that, and more power should clear up that distortion since it is almost definitely the amp clipping.

I can agree with you here. See about room below, lets see if we can make some changes to it.

The room is a very open floor plan. 18x18 with 10 ft ceilings. One side of the room has a large opening that lead into the dining room and kitchen, the other side of the room leads into a stairwell that's quite large as well. I have front sub behind my entertainment stand as you can see in the picture and my rear sub behind my sectional in the back of the room.

I really have no way to change the layout around though please know that. I've ran the Ypao calibration and then made some changes to it just from listening to it. I upped the db on the center speaker to about +6 my front R and L are sitting at +8 on the left and +9 on the right. I generally like to sit directly in the back of the room in the corner seat on the couch which is where I sat to calibrate it myself.

my post count is too low to insert link so just goto photobucket dot com slash vochsaudio

 

[fuzz092888]

Yea, not exactly the ideal room, but I think you'll have more issues with bass than anything with how everything is set up. As long as you aren't searching for huge bass (which will require a pretty good investment for how open everything is) you should be ok. Will the sound be perfect? No, but it should still sound OK. The problems you're experiencing, at least from how I'm reading don't have anything to do with your room. Are there some room related issues as well? Probably, but the situation you are specifically talking about (the speakers sounding like they're crapping out at higher volumes) is totally a power issue. No question.

2 A7s would sound on the weak side when only being driven by the yamaha, but 4? Plus 3 more speakers? Right now you're yelling "Scotty we need more power!!!" and your yamaha is yelling back "I'm givin'er all she's got captain!!!"

 

[FirstReflection]

Yikes!

There's really no possible way to predict what sort of acoustics (room modes, echoes, etc.) you're getting in a room like that. Measurements are really the only way to proceed on that front.

However, sitting in a corner is guaranteed to cause many, nasty issues. You're getting a crazy high amount of reflections off of the two walls that are very close to your head behind your favorite spot on the couch. Those are going to muddy dialogue and smear detail big time. So one, instant improvement would be to damp the heck out of that corner behind your favorite seat. Put as much absorption behind you as you can possible fit so that you won't have those reflections reaching your ears at such a strong level.

Other than that, if you have your speaker levels (trim levels) pushed up that high, your volume close to zero dB and you're still finding the output of your front speakers to be too quiet, or going into distortion if you play them any louder, then that does indicate that you have insufficient amp power for those particular speakers in your room with that placement.

So I'm on board with increasing the available amplifier power to your speakers. However, improving the clairty will mostly come from addressing the high-strength reflections you are getting when seated in your favorite spot. Increase the amplifier power to lower your distortion and increase output capabilities, but damp the heck out of the walls behind you to improve clarity and detail.

 

[FirstReflection]

Oh, one other thing:

bring your center speaker forward on the TV stand so that the front of the center speaker is slightly ahead of the front edge of the TV stand - as in, just a small amount of the front of the center speaker is "hanging over" the front edge of the TV stand.

With the current placement, you're getting massive reflections off of the TV stand surface that is in front of the front of the center speaker. That will also muddy dialogue and smear detail.

I'd also highly recommend decoupling your center speaker. Right now, the physical vibrations from your center are easily being transmitted into the TV stand, causing the TV stand to also vibrate and resonate in sympathy. This is yet another source of unwanted distortion, so decoupling your center speaker will alleviate that issue.