some advice and help on amps please

[lumi]

i have the chance to buy either some vintage amps or buy new small format ones. (currently using denon 3802 and would like better 2 channels stereo)

This is my first proper 2 channel system. im on a budget. the vintage are cheaper but i could afford the small format ones.

i dont know about the tech involved and have been reading articles on this site

ill be able to compare the vintage ones in my set up and pick the one i like

but i also was looking at smaller new ones for convenience and size and have been offered demos to take home n test.

The question im asking myself are the newer smaller ones as good or will i be better off with the vintage ones. My friend says the vintage and i trust him. At end of the day i would like the better sounding one rather than a convenient size, but i wondered what current opinion was.

I will only be running a pc to a dac then to amp. 2 channels stereo

my speakers are rated 90db and are floorstanding, 2.5 way. (cost about £1250 in mid 90s apparently) sound good to me.

now the amps

vintage amps

arcam delta 90.2

marrantz pm66se ki sig

new small formats

emotiva mini x a100
kingrex t20 (tripath 2020)
pop pulse 2070 (tripath)

many thanks for any advice

 

[ski2xblack]

Greetings, Lumi!

Here is a tool you can use to see how much (or how little) power you actually use. It may help you to determine which of the amps on your list will at least meet your particular basic power requirements.

I'm not familiar with all the amps you have listed, but the game with amps is pretty simple. Just follow the formula of having enough clean amp power to meet your needs, ideally with ample headroom left over. Also verify that the chip amps will play nice with the impedance load your speakers present (some of them don't do well with low impedance loads, although I have no idea if that's the case for those particular amp choices, or if your speakers are particularly demanding to drive).

Once you've determined that the amps on your list are indeed appropriate tools for the job, you can narrow your choice based on other factors (size, aesthetics).

Hope this helps.

 

[ski2xblack]

I should add that I highly doubt you will find the options "better" than your Denon. I can completely sympathize with wanting to streamline your rig. If you plan on adding subs, however, you may wish to keep AVRs in consideration, or hang onto your Denon for it's bass management capabilities.

 

[KEW]

In case you are waiting on a second opinion, Ski2xblack is right.

That Denon puts out 110 Watts with 7 channels. If you are using it in stereo, you are not likely to push it's limits unless your speakers are extremely difficult.
If that is the case, I'm not sure you want to go vintage, because back in the day, I didn't see much (if any) testing at 4 ohms. It would be rash of me to say vintage gear is weak with lower impedance, but it would be rash to buy vintage without verifying this ability.

However, since you have the opportunity to audition units at home, why not find out for yourself?
Only work with one channel (L or R). You can run a cable from the "PRE-OUT" on your Denon to the CD or Aux input on the new candidate. Of course, set all EQ controls flat. Hopefully, the candidate unit has a remote with a mute button. Put both of your speakers in the center of your room immediately next to one another, connect one to the Denon, the other speaker to the test unit.
Now with both amps on, you should get the exact same signal from both speakers. Mute one, then hit the mute buttons for both units at the same time to switch between the two. Match volume levels by ear if you don't have a meter (psychologically, louder sounds better even if the unit is actually worse).

You need to listen/compare at normal levels, then run things loud to make sure neither unit is too close to its limits. If your setup is in a smaller room, it would be good to relocate to a larger room for this test, so you can increase the volume without listening fatigue.
Especially on the vintage units, switch to the other channel to make sure both channels perform equally.

Early on and at least once you should swap the speaker cables at the amps - IMHO, it is far more likely that you will hear a difference between two "identical" speakers (or their room position even though they are close together) than any two competent amplifiers - unless you are pushing one of the amps beyond its abilities.

That said, we are emotional creatures! If one of the units looks really nice, has some controls you like (for example, I'm not convinced that a properly implemented loudness control is a mistake on an amp), or just "feels" better; and you have the money (and the upgrade "itch"), go for it!

Cheers,
Kurt

 

[lumi]

thanks for the replys n info

reason im looking is i wasnt happy with the denon in stereo.

i havent bought myself anything new for years nor had a good system before and am rediscoveing my music. The denon is fine for 5.1 movies etc, does a good job for stereo but not quite what im after so isnt about the power.

i got a small dac for my small pc now, as im going the pc route for the music u see, with flac etc.

so no dacs in the amps and no good onboard sound, i bought a dac. imo it made a big diff to onboard sound.

i tested the two vintage amps and cant decide lol. im no audiophile but my friend said the arcam is exciting and the marrantz is smooth, whatever that means. ill listen n decide then get the others on demo n trust my ears.

ill check the power thingy for the smaller ones so thanks for that

 

[ski2xblack]

I would hate to have you chasing ghosts when the fix may be as simple as repositioning your speakers or changing the room decor to achieve better acoustics. I think it's a mistake to jump to the conclusion that the Denon is at fault, or that another amp will cure your sonic ills, whatever they may be (you were quite vague about that, after all).

Please post your impressions of the amps you're auditioning. And keep rediscovering your music (that's the best aspect of this whole damn hobby).

 

[lumi]

well i think the two amps sound better to my ears, more clarity or somethign, and they dont seem to give out as much heat as the denon.

im no audiophile on describeing sounds

ill have ago

arcam slightly smaller soundstage but more exciting, tighter and up front

marrantz bigger soundstage more bottom, richer not quite as exciting on the treble more rounded.

i cant decided which i prefer lol, merge teh two and ill be happy

 

[ski2xblack]

I think you're getting the wrong idea...not being an audiophile is a good thing!

I was hoping you would come back with something like, "hmm, it's difficult to tell the difference." I just expected fewer observed differences from you, hence my 'chasing ghosts' comment above, although you still may be chasing them.

Playing with amps can be fun, but don't get carried away. (Yes, that is perhaps hypocritical advice coming from someone who has used everything from 2000 watt Crowns to 2 watt SETs.) Assuming low output impedance, low distortion, carefully matched levels, and operating within limits (no clipping), most of the subjectively reported differences between amps vanish. Real differences are typically due to the amps violating one of the above assumed characteristics. It could very well be that the vintage amps you've tried deviate somewhat from the Denon in regards to these characteristics, and that your ears/brain like the end results. Nothing wrong with that, it's all about enjoying the music, after all. It could also be that under controlled conditions you would have a much more difficult time telling them apart.

Regarding the 'bigger bottom', it could be that the Marantz breathes deeper-is able to deliver the power to whatever impedance dips and phase angles your speakers present- than the other two amps. If that's the case, the weak bass of the Arcam should only manifest at high output levels (loss of bass is a telltale sign that the amps are running out of steam). How do the amps compare at low to moderate volumes? What speakers do you have? I'm suspecting some power sucking B&Ws.

In regards to soundstage, the amp should be utterly transparent. Soundstage is, ideally at least, strictly due to cues contained within the source recording. Unfortunately, we reproduce the music in small, reverberant rooms, which add their own coloration, and the speaker/room interaction determines what we ultimately hear. Frequency balance also comes into play with soundstage; for example, accentuated mids can bring the image forward, while reduced midrange will have a more laid back presentation. Amps, however, should simply increase the signal, not change frequency balance or alter the soundstage.

Now that I've bored you to tears with all that, continue rediscovering your music collection some more.

 

[lumi]

hi ski

my speakers are keswick audio torrinos floorstanding from the mid 90s made by dean hartley before he went to head tech of monitor audio

they are hard to find info on but i got what i thought was a really good deal

i emailed dean at MA and he was really quick to respond sent me the brochure from back then in pdf

they are 2.5 way 90db

when i said weak bass well i just ment the marrantz sounded a bit deeper, its not that weak on the arcam.

they def do sound diff to each other

i noticed in a classical piece (not my main listening) straus sunrise i think it is , the one in 2001 the trumpets sounded exciting on the arcam n laid back on the marrantz. but in wagner ride of valkeries the more bassier brass was nicer on the marrantz. which is why i said i wish i could combine them.

the treb was more emotionally exciting and hair raising on the arcam for that sunrise piece, the thing is i have no idea what its supposed to be, so i suppose im just going for the 'colour' i liked

i might try another amp

in the end im just going with what i hear as i feel like audio is like asking how big is the universe. its a mind f.... er mess up

i mean i tried 5 different dacs for pc to amp usb and they sounded diff too which i was surprised at. i just gave up on looking at the technical data for which is best and peoples reviews and bought the one i liked best in my budget range.

in the end i like the marrantz amp but just would like the treble a bit more exciting esp for some music.