Soap Box

[sjdgpt]

It is getting to feel like I am in the minority.

I too shop and BUY from local B&M stores.

Now, if the local guy doesn't carry what I want I feel free to shop the 'net. But again, it will be a B&M or traditional mailorder firm (who actually owns a dedicated warehouse of products that are owned by the firm) with a website that will get my business. Even then, I will not purchase a single product over the 'net. If a live body (somebody that speaks English as their first language) can't answer the telephone, I will not buy from the firm.

I avoid "internet firms" if at all possible.

Oops, sorry, I do own a Dell computer (bought over the telephone while viewing the website picking out my options).

 

[Jazzwyld]

Thanks

Thanks to those who have contributed to this thread. I am not in a big box store. I work in a high end store. We sell Theta, Krell FPB series, Audio Research, Paradigm, and Magnepan, and several other high end manufactures. I am not the dumb sales staff and I do understand the idea of getting a deal on mid-fi gear. We discount to compete on all of our mid-fi. I'm not the idiot that works at best buy. I have an audio/video engineering degree and I'm not 16 either to comment on another post. I'm an adult that makes his lively hood selling high end home audio/video solutions. I made this post to insite some discussion . I'm glad it did. Thank you again for your support to those who do.

 

[Rob Babcock]

What exactly is an "audio/video engineering degree"? I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[markw]

There's a happy medium here.

If you make your decisions bnased purely on the internet, then there's no big hassle with net buying.

But if you use the local B&M stores for demo rooms, pester the guys with tons and tons of questions and, most important of all, "borrow" their gear for in home trials only to return it and then purchase for the lowest dollar, then there's a moral issue to be contend with.

Likewise, if you go to them after a net purchase and expect them to help you out, that's another moral issue.

 

[shokhead]

If you make your decisions bnased purely on the internet, then there's no big hassle with net buying.

But if you use the local B&M stores for demo rooms, pester the guys with tons and tons of questions and, most important of all, "borrow" their gear for in home trials only to return it and then purchase for the lowest dollar, then there's a moral issue to be contend with.

Likewise, if you go to them after a net purchase and expect them to help you out, that's another moral issue.

So you go to a single car dealer to buy your car because if you go to x car dealer and ask and test and look and they just cant match what price you want,you buy from them anyway,right? It would be wrong to have them spend all that time and then you go to z dealer that will meet your price. Is that right?

 

[RMK!]

I Found What I was Looking For

And I thought I was on Audioholics looking for AV information. It turns out, what I was actually doing was seeking truth and moral guidance. Now, with audioholics, I have the moral compass that will inspire me to become the person I have always wanted to be. A truly righteous man.

 

[Tex-amp]

While most of my system is from internet direct only companies, and not availible in a B&M, I do believe using a salespersons time to find out what you want than order over the net isn't very good. A salesperson that knows their stuff is worth paying.

 

[Tom Andry]

Between this thread and the Bush bashing one, I feel lost and adrift in the world. I thought I knew right from wrong, good from evil, caffeinated from decaf, but obviously I was incorrect.

Perhaps the mission statement of Audioholics should be changed from "Pursuing the Truth in Audio & Video.." to "Disseminating the Truth as Select Members of the Forums see it.." Instead of dispelling audio myths there could be articles dispelling the myths of right-wing politics, the evils of internet purchasing, and, of course, the myths of esoteric cables (some evils are universal).

I guess the real question is, "What are the most import issues in audio?" Answer, politics...and overpaying for equipment to support local businesses. Whew! And I thought it was sound quality, bang for buck, and sharing helpful tips with the less knowledgeable.

Now, soapbox in hand, I am ready to shout from the mountain top my (new) political views, how much extra I spent on my 3805 to keep Johnny Highschool employed, and to slam anyone that disagrees. Oh yeah, before I start, maybe I should get together a library of supporting websites so that if anyone DARES to disagree, I can point them to the TRUTH! Because we all know that the internet if full of TRUTH. Therefore, why continue to pursue it?

BTW, does anyone know of any websites with cute, politically charged cartoons, hopefully espousing gross exaggerations or outright lies in order to "prove" the righteousness of my views? Thanks.

 

[Resident Loser]

Like it or not...

...markw has a valid point...there is a moral issue involved...

No one is forcing anyone to behave in a certain manner, but...if you are simply an "annoyance" and waste a salesmans time(to the point where he loses a sale because he/she is involved with you), or you simply "collect" literature and brochures, you might wanna' think about it and just put yourself in the other guy's shoes...there is some sort of karmic debt owed...

Again, let me restate, I'm not a big fan of salesmen of any stripe(for all the prevously mentioned reasons) but right is right and if any of this causes a re-think of the "it's no big deal" mindset, that's good...

jimHJJ(...sometimes the ol' "moral compass" needs a bit of re-calibration...)

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

Sorry, but I don't view my auditioning speakers as "wasting his time when he could actually be making a sale." As someone else pointed out, do you simply go to one store, one salesman, listen to one set of speakers and make your purchase?

Or do you go from store to store to store to listen to Brand A, Brand B, Brand X, asking questions, until you make your decision, then purchase it?

If you then decide to go with Brand B, didn't you just waste the time of the salespersons who showed you Brand A and Brand X? Shame on you!

I personally don't see what the difference is if I buy my equipment from the guy who showed me Brand A, Brand B, Brand X or over the internet. In the end, someone got my money and several someones didn't.

Why is it evil if that money goes to the internet store but not evil if I choose one of the B&M stores over the other stores that I frequented?

 

[shokhead]

Between this thread and the Bush bashing one, I feel lost and adrift in the world. I thought I knew right from wrong, good from evil, caffeinated from decaf, but obviously I was incorrect.

Perhaps the mission statement of Audioholics should be changed from "Pursuing the Truth in Audio & Video.." to "Disseminating the Truth as Select Members of the Forums see it.." Instead of dispelling audio myths there could be articles dispelling the myths of right-wing politics, the evils of internet purchasing, and, of course, the myths of esoteric cables (some evils are universal).

I guess the real question is, "What are the most import issues in audio?" Answer, politics...and overpaying for equipment to support local businesses. Whew! And I thought it was sound quality, bang for buck, and sharing helpful tips with the less knowledgeable.

Now, soapbox in hand, I am ready to shout from the mountain top my (new) political views, how much extra I spent on my 3805 to keep Johnny Highschool employed, and to slam anyone that disagrees. Oh yeah, before I start, maybe I should get together a library of supporting websites so that if anyone DARES to disagree, I can point them to the TRUTH! Because we all know that the internet if full of TRUTH. Therefore, why continue to pursue it?

BTW, does anyone know of any websites with cute, politically charged cartoons, hopefully espousing gross exaggerations or outright lies in order to "prove" the righteousness of my views? Thanks.

You do understand what a public forum is,right? Are you upset because we might not agree with you?

 

[markw]

B & M stores should charge by the hour for auditions...

...and then apply that amount towards the final purchase. Sound fair?

After all, someone has to pay these guys to be there to answer your questions, set up speaker tests, right? And, it might take away fron their making other sales, right? In either case, the store should be paid for the time their personnel spend with you.

Why not charge by the hour for their services? Seems fair to me.

Of course, you can always order theough the internet w/o hearing the items and takse a gamble that the rave review that speaker gets on the 'net is going to please you as much as it does others. Pay the shipping (you do save on sales tax for now), hope you've got an authorized sealer and, should anything go wrong, deal via email/phone with the netstore. ...oh,and eithger pay whatever additional shippingcharges are needed to make it right or work it out with the netdealer.

That way you don't ever have to bother wit ha B & M store. Sound fair?

 

[philh]

i tried and tried to buy infinity beta speaker locally. not only was nobody carrying them, but even infinity sales support didn't know the local distributer stopped carrying the product. One (reportidly high end) store, said infinity is crap, we carry the bose line and premium monster cables. Yep, they are knowlidgeable. Another store said, to get good sound you need to up your budget from 1,000 to 2,500! The internet store was FANTASTIC, not only would they ship me the cherry wood finish, but offered several other speaker options in the same price range discussing my room configuration, listening preferences and most used input. I've dealt with Crutchfield and purchased all my non-speaker equipment from them. When I've had a problem, which has always been the user, they resolved it very quickly.

 

[Tom Andry]

This one will be more on topic

I honestly believe that people purposely going to a store to try out equipment fully intending to purchase it online is the exception and not the rule. Even IF I entered the store with that intention, and IF I found exactly what I was looking for at the store, I would feel compelled to mention that I could get the same equipment online for X dollars (hoping that they would match or come close to the price so that I could take it home today rather than wait X days/weeks for shipping). And before I get a rash of responses about people that do take speakers home to audition, send them back to the store and order online, I know that it happens (And people shoplift. And rob banks. And so on.). I just don't think it happens all that often.

As for paying to audition, do you think clothing stores should charge you when you try on clothing? You are wearing it. You are inhibiting other potential buyers from purchasing it. You brought into the dressing room 3 different sizes knowing full well that two wouldn't fit and there was a good chance that the style/cut/whatever wouldn't be to your liking once you saw yourself in them. You took up valuable employee time asking their opinions of how you look fully intending not to heed their advice. Listening to speakers is the exact same thing. You have to know what is right for YOU before you buy.

B & M stores need to allow customers to look at, fondle, listen to, try on, smell, taste, kick, test drive, and whatever else the customer wants in order to feel comfortable purchasing. That's part of doing business. And that is also why internet companies can (and HAVE TO) charge lower prices. B & M’s have the advantage of immediate gratification (you can take it home today), the ability to interact with the product, and the face to face contact person (which is not always that much of an advantage depending on the staff member). The internet company has…………price. Seems like a fair fight to me.

 

[shokhead]

There's plenty of buyers that dont listen to a receiver or speakers before they buy them. Look at all the SVS and HSU and Axiom owners never hearing before buying. I've heard from a ton of cyclist that will buy a new bike never having sat on or doing a test ride. I think A/V stores are not long for our business as you can get all the answers you need from online. Really,the only minus from online is what you said,smelling,touching,playing and what have you. The tighter money gets,the more business online will get.

 

[markw]

Is that what you really want?

I think A/V stores are not long for our business as you can get all the answers you need from online. ... The tighter money gets,the more business online will get.

I don't know if youse are old enough to remember when drug stores would pick up and deliver your perscriptions within two hours or so. Now, try to get Walgreens, Eckert, Drug Fair, or whoever does your scrips to do that.

 

[Tom Andry]

Aww, the "good ole days" argument. Must've been great in the "good ole days." Everything was better; service was always wonderful, people were always nice, flowers were always in bloom, all the girls were pretty, and all the boys were captain of the basketball team. We all said, "Aw, shucks," and "Gosh darn" instead of all the four-letter words the whippersnappers nowadays use. Heck, I remember a time when you didn't have to lock your door at night, you could pick up a hitchhiker and not worry about ending up in a shallow grave, and the worst VD could be cured with penicillin . And Sarcasm was a four-letter word .

The reality is that the "good ole days" were not all that much "better" than today, just different. Yes, you could have your drugs delivered, but you didn't have the selection of drugs and cures you have today. Would I give up my Protonics (acid reflux med) for the ability to have my aspirin delivered to my door? Hell NO! Was crime and teen pregnancy all that much better in the "good ole days?" Studies have indicated that they really weren't, they just weren't talked about/reported on as much. Case in point - Autism. Diagnosis is up like a million percent in the last 20 years. Is it because more people are Autistic? Probably not. More people (especially doctors) are aware of Autism so it is diagnosed much more frequently. I'm sure there are people out there that think that beef hormones, air pollution, global warming, right-wing conservatism, or whatever is the cause for the rise in Autism, and while I can't say for sure that they are not at least a little right, I'd be surprised if it was the sole (or even primary) cause.

So, were some things better in the "good ole days?" I'm sure they were. Should we as a society, nation, or individuals stop progressing, pursuing advancements, ordering av equipment online, etc. in a vain attempt to preserve our past? I don't think so (though M.Night may disagree). And while I don't think all things modern are an improvement (many aren't), those services/institutions that have value will always succeed. Those that don’t, die out. Door to door drugs may have been a convenience of the past that many miss, clearly, as a whole, society did not value it enough to continue to demand it. But, if you really want door to door drugs, there are internet companies that will provide them in 24 hours (obviously a big step down from the 2 hour turn around but at least you don’t have to leave the comfort of your home theater).

 

[shokhead]

I don't know if youse are old enough to remember when drug stores would pick up and deliver your perscriptions within two hours or so. Now, try to get Walgreens, Eckert, Drug Fair, or whoever does your scrips to do that.

I was all over the Helms Bakery truck.

 

[shokhead]

Aww, the "good ole days" argument. Must've been great in the "good ole days." Everything was better; service was always wonderful, people were always nice, flowers were always in bloom, all the girls were pretty, and all the boys were captain of the basketball team. We all said, "Aw, shucks," and "Gosh darn" instead of all the four-letter words the whippersnappers nowadays use. Heck, I remember a time when you didn't have to lock your door at night, you could pick up a hitchhiker and not worry about ending up in a shallow grave, and the worst VD could be cured with penicillin . And Sarcasm was a four-letter word .

The reality is that the "good ole days" were not all that much "better" than today, just different. Yes, you could have your drugs delivered, but you didn't have the selection of drugs and cures you have today. Would I give up my Protonics (acid reflux med) for the ability to have my aspirin delivered to my door? Hell NO! Was crime and teen pregnancy all that much better in the "good ole days?" Studies have indicated that they really weren't, they just weren't talked about/reported on as much. Case in point - Autism. Diagnosis is up like a million percent in the last 20 years. Is it because more people are Autistic? Probably not. More people (especially doctors) are aware of Autism so it is diagnosed much more frequently. I'm sure there are people out there that think that beef hormones, air pollution, global warming, right-wing conservatism, or whatever is the cause for the rise in Autism, and while I can't say for sure that they are not at least a little right, I'd be surprised if it was the sole (or even primary) cause.

So, were some things better in the "good ole days?" I'm sure they were. Should we as a society, nation, or individuals stop progressing, pursuing advancements, ordering av equipment online, etc. in a vain attempt to preserve our past? I don't think so (though M.Night may disagree). And while I don't think all things modern are an improvement (many aren't), those services/institutions that have value will always succeed. Those that don’t, die out. Door to door drugs may have been a convenience of the past that many miss, clearly, as a whole, society did not value it enough to continue to demand it. But, if you really want door to door drugs, there are internet companies that will provide them in 24 hours (obviously a big step down from the 2 hour turn around but at least you don’t have to leave the comfort of your home theater).

But the good old days were better then today,easy. Waaaaaaaaaaaay better music and concerts. Lets see,i never paid more then 10 bucks to see Tull,LZ,ELP,GuessWho, The Who,Ten Years After,Fleetwood Mac,Humble Pie, Mott the Hopple,West,Bruce and Lang,Chicago,and on and on. And it wasnt an once,it was 4 finger. Yep,better in the good old days.

 

[Tom Andry]

Waaaaaaaaaaaay better music

What? Better music? Have you ever heard NSYNC? Ashley Simpson? Britney Spears? Justin Timberlake? J-Lo? These are the new American classics bro! Plus, they totally don't lipsync in concert. I swear. Really.