Smoke Detectors

[Alex2507]

I think, if Im not mistaken that your (smoke detector)system is an alarm to the individual room only - not centralize.

That is exactly right and it is an old hardwired unit. I'm not sure if that's my overhead lighting circuit or main building power ... which I would never tap into to run my audio gear because ... well, I just wouldn't, okay? However wanting to is the same thing so the karmic debt stands.

And, the top rated stand-alone unit:

First Alert Plug-In Carbon Monoxide Alarm with Digital Display and Battery Backup-CO615 at The Home Depot

I'll be getting one of those for the bedroom. It's a plug in with a cord which will allow a rise in elevation from the typical outlet height as recommended by ImcLoud.

a BRK 5120 wired into the fireomatic switch {thats the red cover in your above picture with the small lead melt/break module} with a brk rm4 so when it detects co it breaks L1 going to your burner feed.

I want to look into that a bit more for down the road. It's a higher level of protection but I would rather it only be activated by natural gas because the co detector manual says to stay 20' away from the furnace with their unit.

For right now I'm looking to replace the expired co detector and I'm looking to consolidate the smoke and co detectors into a single unit that will work with the one junction box I have in that ceiling that my current 20 year old smoke detector is wired into. This is my solution for that:

First Alert BRK Hardwired Interconnected Smoke and CO Alarm with Battery Backup-SC9120B at The Home Depot

This is exactly why this is the greatest forum going ...

True dat. The level of help that I find here on any number of topics is amazing. Your link got me thinking about a combo unit and I really only decided on the First Alert brand because of GN's reference to Consumer Reports and ImcLoud's mention of BRK devices of which First Alert is an off shoot.

the house I grew up in burnt to the ground when I was 14

Serious stuff indeed. I won't take any of this lightly.

I would keep it in the old location just outside the utility room is best.

If you have an empty outlet in the bedroom, that's a good place for a second plug-in type.

That's the plan right there.

I forgot to mention; make sure you gift wrap it for Cheryl

I don't dare ... but her Birthday is coming up.




Thanks for the help guys. I got stuff to to do.

 

[ImcLoud]

That is exactly right and it is an old hardwired unit. I'm not sure if that's my overhead lighting circuit or main building power ... which I would never tap into to run my audio gear because ... well, I just wouldn't, okay? However wanting to is the same thing so the karmic debt stands.



I'll be getting one of those for the bedroom. It's a plug in with a cord which will allow a rise in elevation from the typical outlet height as recommended by ImcLoud.



I want to look into that a bit more for down the road. It's a higher level of protection but I would rather it only be activated by natural gas because the co detector manual says to stay 20' away from the furnace with their unit.

Most units will say this, because co levels are generally accepted in boiler rooms, but boilers can be ran in a room that has zero CO, and with a very small effort... All it takes is fresh air. Think of it this way, your house is a cardboard box, you have the same atmospheric pressure as the outside. BUT when you evacuate air from the inside to the outside via a chimneys natural draft, a dryers vent, a bathrooms fan, ect. The air has to come from some where and since the box is not 100% sealed it will not go negative pressure. It will suck the air from where ever it can get it, the area of least resistance first and since natural draft boilers have an open flue way with a direct line to the chimney this is usually the first place the air will enter from, problem being the air it gets out of the chimney is lead by a flue full of combustion gasses.... To stop this you simply seal the boiler room off from the items that are taking air out of the box.... But that boiler needs air to fire and the chimney {one of the items sucking air from the box} is in the boiler room, so you need to add "make up air" to the boiler room, enough to satisfy your burners combustion needs... Some people say "but this adds cold air to my home" and yes it does, but no matter what that air is coming in, it is actually more efficient to add it to your boiler room via a controlled vent than to let it come from windows and air gaps throughout the enclosure in your temperature controlled living space....
So for most homes, you can seal off your boiler room and add an air intake for a couple hundred dollars, I have seen homes that had basement laundry and built a few walls around the boiler, added an air in a can unit and still only spent $1000 and that included a door and sheet rocked walls!!!

Moral of the story, get co out of your living space, even though the government says so many ppm of co is "OK" its really not, every breath is poisoning us, and we already get enough from parking garages and regular day to day life than we need, why let your home poison you too...

 

[Swerd]

OK, so I read this thread. The problem I had is that too much of it does not seem to apply to my house. I did go to check out what I have, are the batteries good, etc., and finally what can I do, if anything, to improve things?

I have a 2-story, wood frame & brick exterior, house with full basement, and crawl space attic. It was built in 1993 and it came with hardwired smoke alarms on the ceiling in the basement, 1[SUP]st[/SUP], and 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] floors. They each have 9 volt batteries (and AC?) and I believe (but I’m not certain) they are wired so that if any 1 unit detects smoke, all 3 sound off.

There is a gas furnace and gas hot water heater in the basement; gas stove, clothes dryer, and fireplace on the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] floor; and another gas furnace in the attic. The furnace in the basement heats the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] floor, and the attic furnace heats the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] floor. Each system is independent with its own air handler, duct work, air conditioning compressor, and thermostat.

I have never had a fire or any problem with the smoke detectors. My question is should I add a CO detector? Anything else? Should they be similarly hardwired like the existing smoke detectors, or separate? I’d like to keep it simple – buy and install myself.

 

[Adam]

They each have 9 volt batteries (and AC?) and I believe (but I’m not certain) they are wired so that if any 1 unit detects smoke, all 3 sound off.

The AC part is easy to check once you pull one off - the question is, how easy are they to get to? If you have an AC connection, there will be a power cable and connector on the back side...which can make it a real pain to remove/reinstall them when they're almost out of reach.

 

[sawzalot]

@ swerd, you should probably add a co detector and you dont have to interconnect it , you could do a stand alone plug in type, any chance that there is a receptacle at the top of the stairs from basement just before the door to living space, that would be a great spot for a unit . I am not sure of best location for upstairs maybe a neutral space like the hallway between all bedrooms? I have never seen a co sensor in the actual attic space where the heater is installed as well but i am not saying this wouldnt work.

 

[Swerd]

The AC part is easy to check once you pull one off - the question is, how easy are they to get to? If you have an AC connection, there will be a power cable and connector on the back side...which can make it a real pain to remove/reinstall them when they're almost out of reach.

Each smoke detector has romex leading to it through the ceiling, but I don't know if that means AC is coming in, or if romex was used to connect all 3 smoke detectors for a common alarm triggered by one unit. The builders installed them, and it passed all the usual inspections during construction. The basement is unfinished so I can see all the wires leading to the basement smoke detector. I do not see a separate circuit for "smoke detectors" in my circuit breaker box, but I don't know if I should expect to see one.

If I had bought them and installed them myself, I would have read a package insert telling me what they were capable of. With a builder install, I can only assume I got what code requires.

@ swerd, you should probably add a co detector and you dont have to interconnect it , you could do a stand alone plug in type, any chance that there is a receptacle at the top of the stairs from basement just before the door to living space, that would be a great spot for a unit . I am not sure of best location for upstairs maybe a neutral space like the hallway between all bedrooms? I have never seen a co sensor in the actual attic space where the heater is installed as well but i am not saying this wouldnt work.

Thanks. The door to the basement is at the bottom of the stairs, and midway in those stairs is the return vent for the furnace. There is a smoke detector in the basement, just inside that door, and the 1st floor detector is not far from the top of those stairs, on the 1st floor.

On the 2nd floor, there is a common hallway that leads to the bedrooms, and the 2nd floor smoke detector is there.

I guess I have to read a bit about CO detectors and where they are best mounted. I think Imcloud talked about that somewhere is this thread. Maybe Wikipedia?

 

[Adam]

Each smoke detector has romex leading to it through the ceiling, but I don't know if that means AC is coming in, or if romex was used to connect all 3 smoke detectors for a common alarm triggered by one unit.

Ahhh, gotcha. In that case, if you are curious, you can remove the battery from a unit (and drain the capacitor by pushing the test button until it stops making noise) and then plug it back into that cable. If it has an indicator light that turns on and/or it starts beeping for a low battery, then you know it's powered.

Well, or one of the resident sparkies can tell you a faster way to check if that line is hot.

 

[Alex2507]

OK, so I read this thread. The problem I had is that too much of it does not seem to apply to my house. I did go to check out what I have, are the batteries good, etc., and finally what can I do, if anything, to improve things?

I have a 2-story, wood frame & brick exterior, house with full basement, and crawl space attic. It was built in 1993 and it came with hardwired smoke alarms on the ceiling in the basement, 1[SUP]st[/SUP], and 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] floors. They each have 9 volt batteries (and AC?) and I believe (but I’m not certain) they are wired so that if any 1 unit detects smoke, all 3 sound off.

There is a gas furnace and gas hot water heater in the basement; gas stove, clothes dryer, and fireplace on the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] floor; and another gas furnace in the attic. The furnace in the basement heats the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] floor, and the attic furnace heats the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] floor. Each system is independent with its own air handler, duct work, air conditioning compressor, and thermostat.

I have never had a fire or any problem with the smoke detectors. My question is should I add a CO detector? Anything else? Should they be similarly hardwired like the existing smoke detectors, or separate? I’d like to keep it simple – buy and install myself.

Replace your smoke detectors with these. That will get a CO detector to all your smoke detector locations and they can be inter connected like your smokes are. ImcLoud went over it a couple of times for my benefit but there's an installation guide on this link for the plug in unit that you should get for your bedroom. The guide is on the lower right of the linked page.

The Romex provides 120 volts for your hard wiring. The new units use RF to link up, not sure if the plug in will do the same but it's better than nothing which is what you have now in the bedroom ... no offense.

It will be way easier than wiring up your outdoor sconces. No doubt your already sniffing out info and see it all adding up to about 200 bucks to become current as a safe Homer Owner. Cheryl says that you too must get on top of this ... no offense.

 

[Rickster71]

Each smoke detector has romex leading to it through the ceiling, but I don't know if that means AC is coming in, or if romex was used to connect all 3 smoke detectors for a common alarm triggered by one unit.

Yes they had to be AC and interconnected when your house was built.

The easiest way to replace, (they twist off the base) take one with you to the Depot or an electrical supply house.
Get the same brand in a combo unit as Alex mentioned. Double check that the plugs match. I'm almost 100% sure they will.

 

[Swerd]

I just reread this whole thread for the details.

Is there any reason to get this
First Alert BRK Hardwired Interconnected Smoke and CO Alarm with Battery Backup-SC9120B at The Home Depot

over this
Universal Security Instruments MICN109 3-in-1 Smoke, Carbon Monoxide and Natural Gas Alarm - Amazon.com

It costs less, has a natural gas detector, and I got points to spend on Amazon.

Also thanks a lot to Imcloud for his professional input.

Irv, I have one minor beef with your posts. Could you please use standard punctuation and include links to products you mention? Yes I'm being lazy about the second part .

But your somewhat lengthy posts would be easier for me to read if they were written as sentences with standard punctuation. They don't have to use correct grammar, but my eyes tend to glaze over from trying to read some of your posts. They do have useful info, but I tend to loose my place, and attention, when I read them.

If you do that, I promise I will refrain from EVER AGAIN becoming the grammar police with your posts .

 

[Rickster71]

I'm leaning toward the second one. It's both a Photoelectric & Ionization, that's the best combination for all types of fires.
Chances are the plugs won't match your old units and you'll have to rewire the bases; not really a big deal.

 

[Swerd]

I also want to reinforce what Irv said about fire escape ladders and fire extinguishers. I have a similar ladder in my closet by the bedroom, but I've never used it.

The first year I lived in my neighborhood, a house several blocks away EXPLODED during the night. It rapidly burned down, and the occupants escaped, miraculously, by jumping from a 2nd floor bedroom window. Like all the houses here, it had natural gas heat.

The resulting investigation revealed that during construction, a back hoe slightly dented the buried gas supply pipe while digging a ditch for something else. The damaged pipe was outside the house, and wasn't a problem until January when the ground was covered with a fresh layer of ice from a recent storm. With the thick layer of ice, leaking gas found it's way into the basement of the house, and eventually ignited.

The gas company and the house builder quietly paid off the owners. Apparently, they were well rewarded. Soon afterwards, the local fire department, had an info session in the neighborhood (and fund raiser). They displayed items like the escape ladder that Irv showed. I bought one, as well as a dry powder fire extinguisher for the kitchen.

The fund raiser was very successful, although we kidded the firemen that we should charge them for using our neighborhood for practice. That same year, there was another fire in a house under construction. This one was caused by the propane heater used by the drywallers. It blew up too!

 

[Rickster71]

I should elaborate a bit.

Ionization detectors generally are more responsive to flaming fires.
Photoelectric detectors are generally more responsive to fires that begin with a long period of smoldering.
A combo unit is the best of both worlds.
If I had to choose one, it would be Photoelectric.
Just my $0.02

 

[Alex2507]

I'm leaning toward the first one because Amazon is the spine of the beast and in a few hours I will have a Home Depot gift card ... plus Canadian politics and the Consumer report nod for First alert. These devices that detect things that can kill me is the last place I want to be saving money. I don't really know anything about this stuff outside of what's in this thread but Consumer Reports must. Another place you don't want to save money is brakes and bearings for your car.

Do you guys think Cheryl would like a nice big box of laundry soap for her Birthday?

 

[Swerd]

I'm leaning toward the second one. It's both a Photoelectric & Ionization, that's the best combination for all types of fires.
Chances are the plugs won't match your old units and you'll have to rewire the bases; not really a big deal.

Thanks. I'll have to get 3 of those. By the time I install all 3, I'll be the local expert.

Wikipedia discusses both types of smoke detectors, and offers some suggestions. I guess getting both works.
Smoke detector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rickster71]

I have a similar ladder in my closet by the bedroom, but I've never used it.

Great advice.
If I may add one thing.
Keep the ladder stored within the bottom three feet of the closet.
In a fire the bottom 2 or 3 feet are of a room are the virtually smoke and heat free.
You don't want to stand up in thick smoke while looking for your ladder on the top shelf.

 

[Alex2507]

Another reason for me to go with the First Alert is the larger diameter of 5.6" as opposed to 5". I don't want to paint the ceiling and I don't want to see a weird ring around the collar every time I look up. I'll probably end up with a variety of detectors all over the place.

 

[Adam]

...Amazon is the spine of the beast...

Wait - are you saying that I'm selling my soul for all this free stuff?






Amazon is getting f****d in that deal.

 

[Swerd]

Keep the ladder stored within the bottom three feet of the closet.
In a fire the bottom 2 or 3 feet are of a room are the virtually smoke and heat free.
You don't want to stand up in thick smoke while looking for your ladder on the top shelf.

It's on the floor of the closet, as it's too big for anywhere else.

The most fun I had many years ago in the Navy, was a week of firefighting training. We learned how to use 4" diameter hoses, and to crawl on hands & knees under heavy black smoke.

 

[Alex2507]

in the Navy ... We learned how to use 4" diameter hoses

What?

I had to do that for Doug.