Small living space: help me understand what I need

[AbyssalLoris]

Hi.. I live in a small apartment in suburban USA. I think I've already made things very bad simply by telling you this.

I'm looking for a HT system. Nothing exquisite. I will be getting a 42" plasma TV (I wanted something smaller to keep it in proportion to my space, but not too many other choices make economic sense). Let's assume that I'm also getting a respectable DVD player with 720p upconverting capability.

Now, the conclusions from my own preliminary research say that I should just get a HTIB and forget about the rest. If i were to do this, the Onkyo HT-S907 seems to be the appropriate choice (ignoring the fact it has a DVD player). I won't bore you with the details, but this is just to give you an idea.

However, I am one to spend a little more if the gains in quality are significant.
So assuming that I buy a similar ($400 or less) AVR from Onkyo or someone, what choices do I have for speakers? Please keep in mind the following:

1. I really do not care about output power/ decibel level. In fact, high levels of this is rather undesirable given my living conditions. Intuition suggests that if I compromise on this, I should be able to get good quality speakers that cost less than ones intended to deliver a lot of power. Is this correct?

2. There don't really seem to be speakers with great sound quality (frequency response, distortion) at relatively low output level. Am I wrong? After all, how loud can I make it in a 16'x11' apartment room?

3. If I'm wrong on the above, can someone give counter examples?

4. If I were to purchase speakers separately (and not as a 5.1 or whatever), then is there any reason why front L/R speakers are different from surrounds?

5. What is the minimum speaker configuration I need to start off and be able to add to later on? 2.1? 2.0? 3.1? (2.1 + center).

6. Big sound on movies are not too important to me. I do like my music to reproduce accurately though.

Thanks for reading my long-winded post.

 

[avaserfi]

1. You should care about output levels for the simple fact that if you get a speaker that is too hard to push you might need to invest in an amplifier. Getting speakers that are capable of playing loud and good quality speakers are not both going to drive the price up. You should look for a quality speaker within your budget then decide on a power source (receiver) that will push the speakers appropriatly.

2. A speaker that can play well loudly should play well quietly at the same time. You can make it as loud as your neighbors can take .

3. For well priced speakers I would look at av123.com x-series speakers as well as SVS speakers if you are going for the HT environment. I have heard both and can recommend them confidently. One thing to remember is that I might love a pair of speakers you hate...it really depends on the person.

4. The fronts and surrounds can be different or the same that doesn't really matter if you are going for a movie/gaming set up. While it is ideal to have the same speakers all around that can't always happen. Where it is important to have the same speaker is with the fronts and center to keep the timbre matched all the way through as differing timbre in this case is far more noticable.

5. If I were you I would start off going 2.0 then add a center and finally the surrounds. If you think you can get away with a sub in your apartment (I have in mine) then get that before the center.

6. I would look into the av123.com x-series. I don't know what your budget it but I would also take a look at B&W 686 if you can afford those. I felt they were a great speaker that reproduced music very well especially for the price but are in a different catagory when compared to the x-series IMO.

 

[abefroeman]

Woohoo first response!

1. Sounds about right to me because genrally speaking smaller speakers will be less dynamic than larger spekaers of the same quality. But good quality speakers will have higher power handling than cheaper speakers.

Basically, you can ignore size and just pick out good speakers.

2. Boo. Sure there are. Onix Reference 0.5

3. see #2

4. Other than cost, no. You can just make them all the same. 5 of the above speakers would sound great.

5. The minimum to buy is 0. You can just listen to the ones that come with your TV. But based on the HTIB you are looking at, you have a budget of about $1,000. So I would get 3 of the speakers above for $450. And I would get an SVS NSD-10 sub for about $430. Lastly, I would get a used receiver like this one of ebay... Yamaha-RX-V995 for about $200.

6. This will work great for both music and movies.

 

[abefroeman]

beat to the punch

 

[Davemcc]

Hi.. I live in a small apartment in suburban USA. I think I've already made things very bad simply by telling you this.

Why would you think that. Your room is larger than mine, but I don't have to worry about neighbors.

Now, the conclusions from my own preliminary research say that I should just get a HTIB and forget about the rest.

I went through a few HTIB's and none have satisfied me at all. In fact, it's generally poor quality of HTIB's that caused me to come to this site in the first place.

1. I really do not care about output power/ decibel level. In fact, high levels of this is rather undesirable given my living conditions. Intuition suggests that if I compromise on this, I should be able to get good quality speakers that cost less than ones intended to deliver a lot of power. Is this correct?

On the contrary. You can get loud speakers cheap, but quality usually comes with a price tag, at any volume level.

2. There don't really seem to be speakers with great sound quality (frequency response, distortion) at relatively low output level. Am I wrong? After all, how loud can I make it in a 16'x11' apartment room?

Quite loud, in fact, if that's what you want and still have it sound very good.

3. If I'm wrong on the above, can someone give counter examples?

I am your counter example. See below. Everything in this picture (listed in sig) is in a room smaller than yours.

5. What is the minimum speaker configuration I need to start off and be able to add to later on? 2.1? 2.0? 3.1? (2.1 + center).

Depends on your budget and taste. Start small with a 2.0 and get the best quality you can, then add on in stages.

6. Big sound on movies are not too important to me. I do like my music to reproduce accurately though.

If you base your system on quality music reproduction, you will most likely get awesome movie sound as part of the deal.

 

[pearsall001]

Check out these little guys. I've never heard them so I can't comment on how they sound. However they do get tremendous reviews. Worth a look if you're trying to keep things small. http://www.orbaudio.com/

 

[stratman]

Or try roundsound.com, Gallo's you can get their "htib" package: 5 rounds speakers and their sub for about 1000.00 I have them and they're execellent, small and efficient. The quality is superb for speakers their size.

 

[AbyssalLoris]

Thanks for all the responses. I am beginning to make up my mind to go with discrete speakers (not HTIB).

It looks like there may be some relatively cheap options that should suit my needs. I will look into the specific recommendations made here.

But I still don't understand the front vs. surround speakers issue. To quote Avaserfi..

"The fronts and surrounds can be different or the same that doesn't really matter if you are going for a movie/gaming set up. While it is ideal to have the same speakers all around that can't always happen. Where it is important to have the same speaker is with the fronts and center to keep the timbre matched all the way through as differing timbre in this case is far more noticable."

This is unclear to me. If I can use the same bookshelf pair as front L/R and then add another identical pair as surrounds, then why do manufacturers make speakers labeled separately as surrounds? These don't look like the same front bookshelf speakers. Also, if these are all sold as pairs, then how do I get ONE of them to use as a center?

What should I be doing? Get the same speaker for all positions or get the ones specifically labeled 'center' and 'surround' by the maker?

 

[avaserfi]

This is unclear to me. If I can use the same bookshelf pair as front L/R and then add another identical pair as surrounds, then why do manufacturers make speakers labeled separately as surrounds? These don't look like the same front bookshelf speakers. Also, if these are all sold as pairs, then how do I get ONE of them to use as a center?

What should I be doing? Get the same speaker for all positions or get the ones specifically labeled 'center' and 'surround' by the maker?

While you can use the same speakers as your fronts and surrounds it is generally something you should only do in one way. It is okay to use the same speakers as your fronts as your surrounds, but probably not such a good idea to do the opposite. The reason for this is that surrounds speakers generally don't have to play as low or loud as main speakers. At the same time the generally don't have to be as precise because most of the time they will not be used for musical recreation unless you want to delve into the realm of multichannel music where it is recommended to have the same exact speakers in all 5 or 7 locations.

In my opinion the best thing you can do is get the same speaker all around, if it is designed for use as a front speaker. Do this if you can fit the same speaker in place of a center and surrounds. If you cannot get the same speaker all around at least try to get speakers with the same tweeter for use as your center and surrounds. Don't worry though, if you want to go with specifically labeled speakers they will sound good as long as you are getting well made speakers!

Sometimes you can't get one to use as a center, sometimes you can. You can always ask the company and see if they will help you out. Other options include getting an extra pair and setting up a 6.1 set up or just keeping the extra speaker as a back up just in case.

Hope that clears up your confusion!

 

[AbyssalLoris]

Hmm.. gotcha.

The next question is how much sub do I need?

I'm not sure how a sub is specified. I mean I don't know what exactly the 12" of a 12" sub governs. While I take the general advice I have got on these forums that I will be good with well made speakers even if they have the capacity to be driven loud when I don't need it, I'm not sure the same thing extends to a sub.

What I mean is.. speakers are ok. They are not that much of a problem in apartment conditions. But the sub is definitely a deal breaker. I'm absolutely certain I will not be using a sub at full blast or anywhere near. I don't see too much of a point in a sub that can put out 250W at 30 Hz. It won't work for my situation. So why should I be paying large sums of money for one? Should I not be able to get a sub with good response and other characteristics that does not have the ability to put out that much power?

If there are, can you suggest any specific models? What is the kind of sub I should avoid?

** Oops, I just realized there is a separate subwoofer section. Not sure if I should repost this question over there. If so, someone please let me know.

 

[jcPanny]

Speaker and sub options

Check out the AV123 X-ls speakers. They are on the b-stock page for $164/pair while they last.http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=stock&brand=14

For subwoofers, a small one like the AV123 X-sub will get you quality bass down to the 30 Hz range. For higher SPL/volume levels you could get two of these. A good 10" or 12" sub from SVS or HSU will play down to the 20 Hz range. The larger size woofer can move more air and a larger tuned enclosure effects the frequency response. Also at the lower frequencies you can "feel" the bass more in addition to hearing it.

 

[PJ612]

Hello

Just my advice..

Stick with your original goals, which to get small system with good sound.

First of, the basic system you can get will be just stereo (and maybe plus a subwoofer). In this case, i really recommend you to look at NAD L53 / L54, or NAD L73 for all in one 5 channels system.

You have to know the wattage of the receiver you are going to have. This will determine what kind of speaker you should get. Look at the speaker spec (example: Min 15 watts, max 150 watts). NAD at 50 watts will drive those speakers just fine. However, with other brands (specially those japanese brands like Sony, Pioneer, etc), you might need to use receiver at at least 80 or 100 watts.
If your receiver have only 50 watts, don't even try to use B&W speakers who have min 50 watts requirement. (It will work, but it won't sound very good). In fact, go as far as you can from minimum spec (but lower than max).
Low wattage spec speakers such as PSB B25, Paragidm Monitor, or Studio are my best advice.
ANd oh, please disregard efficiency and/or loudness of your speakers. It won't matter at all. If you live in small apartment, chances are, you are never going to have them really loud anyway. Sound quality should be your #1 priority.

Second, it's the speaker size. I never believe in small speakers. I don't care what they say in advertisement, small speakers will make small sound. Do not get speaker smaller than 5.25" diameter.

Happy listening !

 

[avaserfi]

Just my advice..

Stick with your original goals, which to get small system with good sound.

First of, the basic system you can get will be just stereo (and maybe plus a subwoofer). In this case, i really recommend you to look at NAD L53 / L54, or NAD L73 for all in one 5 channels system.

You have to know the wattage of the receiver you are going to have. This will determine what kind of speaker you should get. Look at the speaker spec (example: Min 15 watts, max 150 watts). NAD at 50 watts will drive those speakers just fine. However, with other brands (specially those japanese brands like Sony, Pioneer, etc), you might need to use receiver at at least 80 or 100 watts.
If your receiver have only 50 watts, don't even try to use B&W speakers who have min 50 watts requirement. (It will work, but it won't sound very good). In fact, go as far as you can from minimum spec (but lower than max).
Low wattage spec speakers such as PSB B25, Paragidm Monitor, or Studio are my best advice.
ANd oh, please disregard efficiency and/or loudness of your speakers. It won't matter at all. If you live in small apartment, chances are, you are never going to have them really loud anyway. Sound quality should be your #1 priority.

Second, it's the speaker size. I never believe in small speakers. I don't care what they say in advertisement, small speakers will make small sound. Do not get speaker smaller than 5.25" diameter.

Happy listening !

I would ignore much of this post when it comes to pairing a receiver to speakers. Wattage is one of the last things you should look at when shopping for a power source as that decides how loud the speakers will play. If you want to know whether or not your speakers will actually work well with the receiver look at the impedance (ohms).

I also wouldn't disregard the speaker sensitivity (efficiency) as he says to because the more sensitive the speaker the less powerful receiver you need which can save you money. Plus there might be a point when you move and want to fill a larger room.

I can't speak on ignoring the speaker recommendations though as I have never heard them.

Edit: Lastly, It is always a better idea to pick speakers first than pick the appropriate amplification for them so you don't end up with a useless receiver that can't power your speakers.

Ohh and jcPanny's recommendation for the x-ls b-stock speakers is a rather good one IMO.

 

[PJ612]

Wattage is one of the last things you should look at when shopping for a power source as that decides how loud the speakers will play. If you want to know whether or not your speakers will actually work well with the receiver look at the impedance (ohms).

I also wouldn't disregard the speaker sensitivity (efficiency) as he says to because the more sensitive the speaker the less powerful receiver you need which can save you money. Plus there might be a point when you move and want to fill a larger room.

Wattage is definitely not the last thing you should consider. It is the first thing! Having said that, i did not mean to disregard impedance. Speaker impedance can drop low, and this mean it will need more power (alias wattage) to drive them.

I have NAD C325BEE (which is 'only' 50 watts) and Paradigm Studio 20 (min 20-150 watts). They sound extremely good to my ears. Now, regarding speaker sensitivity, i don't know about my speakers sensitivity, but i do know i never play my speaker pass 9 o'clock volume to get a very loud and satisfying sound. However, i am aware many people have hearing problem due to their 'dance club years', if that is your case, go ahead blast and rock your whole house.

Reading the first original post, i don't think that was his intention. He just want to use it to listen to music or movie everyday in his small apartment.

 

[avaserfi]

Wattage is definitely not the last thing you should consider. It is the first thing! Having said that, i did not mean to disregard impedance. Speaker impedance can drop low, and this mean it will need more power (alias wattage) to drive them.

I have NAD C325BEE (which is 'only' 50 watts) and Paradigm Studio 20 (min 20-150 watts). They sound extremely good to my ears. Now, regarding speaker sensitivity, i don't know about my speakers sensitivity, but i do know i never play my speaker pass 9 o'clock volume to get a very loud and satisfying sound. However, i am aware many people have hearing problem due to their 'dance club years', if that is your case, go ahead blast and rock your whole house.

Reading the first original post, i don't think that was his intention. He just want to use it to listen to music or movie everyday in his small apartment.

I don't know why you think wattage is important to look at but it simply isn't and here is why: When you buy a speaker with a wattage range of lets say 15-200 watts that means you can deliver it anywhere from 15-200 watts which makes sense. So lets say you send the speakers 15 watts and they play at X db if you send them 30 watts they will play at about X+3 db. Every doubling in power will add about 3db to the volume. Once you get to 200 watts you will be ear bleeding levels so having an amp that pushes 500 watts will likely not be a problem because you will never get the speakers that loud and not have your ears bleed...literally. The issue is under powering speakers as that is when you can blow woofers. All this means is a 50 watt receiver, which is relatively lower power as they come, will have no problem pushing these speakers. Same with a 100 watt receiver the only difference being the 100 watt receiver will play louder.

Now lets say your speakers have an impedance of 6 ohms and your receiver can only handle an 8 ohm load. This means your speakers will likely be damaged by being run by a suboptimal receiver especially during the impedance dips.

Sensitivity is important for the reasons I stated earlier. You need less receiver to play loudly and clearly which leaves room changing options open for the future. Besides a well built and designed speaker should and will play well both quietly and loudly.

 

[AbyssalLoris]

There's some conflicting information here, but I think I understand the spirit of it.

Is there some reason to believe that big brand (Sony, Onkyo,..) AVRs are not specified properly? I mean if they say 100W, why would that be any different from a NAD receiver that can deliver 100W (*i mean only in terms of output power, not other specs such as the quality of the DSP or anything like that*)? The only reason I can think of is that if I said 100W output without clearly specifying the load impedance, it might be misleading. So is there cause to assume that when Sony says 100 watt, it may only deliver that to a load impedance > 8 ohm, thereby actually delivering less power to most speakers which would present 8 ohm?

Is this what PJ612 means? Or is it something else?

NOTE: When I say the above, I am assuming that the receiver/amp acts as a current source, ie., it has some sort of a driver amp that is meant to source high current to the load/speaker. I do not know how the amp/speaker is designed. It may very well be that the driver amp is designed to present constant voltage, in which case a lower speaker impedance should actually produce greater power output. All this means that my question is hypothetical, please ignore the details.

 

[Davemcc]

First, listen to avaserfi.

Second, here is a thread that deals specifically with your issues.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33399

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Good advice Dave!

First, listen to avaserfi.

Second, here is a thread that deals specifically with your issues.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33399

 

[avaserfi]

First, listen to avaserfi.

Second, here is a thread that deals specifically with your issues.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33399

I was hoping someone else would chime in so the newer people can learn and get more confident about who was right .

 

[ParadigmDawg]

That's what just occured by Dave saying to listen to you and me saying Dave was giving good advice about listening to you.

I was hoping someone else would chime in so the newer people can learn and get more confident about who was right .