Should Speaker Designers Listen.........

[just listening]

To live music on a regular basis?

I ask this because last week while on a business trip I had time to stop in to a new/used audio shop and by chance the owner that I know introduced me to a local speaker builder of note who was in the shop. As we talked I asked him about his inspiration and sonic qualities he focused on. Besides the usual list one would expect, he mentioned recreating the emotional connection from a live show.

I asked him how he determines that effect. I found his reply very interesting. He says he goes to concerts twice a week. Anything from high school, college, local bars, to small concert venues, to church services.

Comments?

 

[tonygeno]

To live music on a regular basis?

I ask this because last week while on a business trip I had time to stop in to a new/used audio shop and by chance the owner that I know introduced me to a local speaker builder of note who was in the shop. As we talked I asked him about his inspiration and sonic qualities he focused on. Besides the usual list one would expect, he mentioned recreating the emotional connection from a live show.

I asked him how he determines that effect. I found his reply very interesting. He says he goes to concerts twice a week. Anything from high school, college, local bars, to small concert venues, to church services.

Comments?

Certainly if that's his goal, he is doing the smart thing by listening to live music.

 

[Pyrrho]

I think they should listen to live music, but not just any live music will do. If it is amplified live music playing through speakers, it will be listening to other speakers, and that is not going to help so much. It needs to be acoustic music that is not amplified, if the goal is to hear music as it naturally sounds. But even without bothering with that, most people hear others talking, and so they can listen to voices in speakers for how natural sounding it is. And if their spouse plays the piano at home, that will also be a good source of acoustic information for them. So it does not need to be any sort of professional or public concert at all.

Still, this is more a matter of testing the result, not actually designing the speaker, and I think it is more important for the designer to understand the science in back of speaker design rather than hear anything at all. Frankly, I don't see why a totally deaf person could not design a great speaker, though obviously such a person could not test the results from listening. To put this another way, I would rather have a speaker designed by the appropriate sort of engineer who happened to be deaf than by some ignorant fool who happens to listen to a lot of live music. I expect, though, that very few deaf people would want to bother studying the science of acoustics and speaker design, since they are not going to be able to listen to the result. But I see no reason why it could not be done, and done well, if the person was sufficiently motivated.

 

[highfigh]

Listening to live music is fine but in order to even begin to attempt to capture the live experience, the listening room's size needs to be more similar- that's why all of the ambiance settings exist. Second, what instruments will be heard? If the target audience listens to live music a lot, live recordings will be what they need to listen to if the live experience is to be duplicated because there's nothing live about most studio recordings.

A studio recording is so far from the way live music sounds because it's done in a controlled environment. Click tracks keep the musicians at the correct tempo, specifically drummers, and pitch stabilization is used for the singers who can't pull it off live. A good example of a singer who usually sings flat is Emmylou Harris and I can't listen to her for very long because of it. Studio engineers hate distortion of any kind and some even ask that effects not be used on instruments that sound nothing like what they're known for.

IMO, a speaker designer should listen to a wide variety of music, live and canned.

 

[TLS Guy]

To live music on a regular basis?

I ask this because last week while on a business trip I had time to stop in to a new/used audio shop and by chance the owner that I know introduced me to a local speaker builder of note who was in the shop. As we talked I asked him about his inspiration and sonic qualities he focused on. Besides the usual list one would expect, he mentioned recreating the emotional connection from a live show.

I asked him how he determines that effect. I found his reply very interesting. He says he goes to concerts twice a week. Anything from high school, college, local bars, to small concert venues, to church services.

Comments?

It is absolutely essential. The state of the speaker art is just not good enough to allow math and physics to design a good speaker alone.

In my view it is absolutely essential to know the sound of natural instruments and the human voice. You must listen to them often enough to really get them in your memory banks. In my experience great designers always to final voicing by ear.

Peter Walker of Quad was an excellent flautist. Gilbert Briggs who founded Wharfedale was a pianist of professional concert caliber. Those are just examples.

I'm going to make a statement now that will probably get me on trouble, but I believe it to be true. If you are a rock or electronic music enthusiast you will never design a great speaker.

Could a deaf person design and finish off a great speaker, absolutely not.

I was at a concert last week, and at all times I felt I could just as easily have been listening to my loudspeakers. In particular the bass was to all intense and purposes identical.

 

[markw]

H E Double-hockeysticks Yes!

As far as I can tell, the intent of a speaker is to as accurately as possible recreate the experience of a good live performance, be it acoustic or amplified.

Granted, it's never going to be perfect and one's personal hearing and tastes will affect the final outcome, but it does provide a basis in reality and a goal for which they can aim.

Unless, of course, they are designing home theatre speakers, where most of what we hear was created in a foley studio...

 

[Hi Ho]

I am very much into acoustic music. I play an instrument (sort of) and I see live concerts and am present at live jams frequently. I also run sound mainly for acoustic performers and I have a PA system tailored to that.

I have heard a lot of BAD PA setups. I have also heard excellent PA setups made bad by sound engineers that have no clue what they're doing when someone gets on stage with an instrement that does not plug in. I've seen them stick an SM58 on an acoustic instrument, crank up the high end, and call it good.

It is really obvious to me when something is fishy with the PA at a concert and it drives me insane. Just using the right microphones is a big step in the right direction. There is no subsitute for a good condenser microphone on an acoustic instrument in my opinion. Many engineers don't even get that right.

I certainly agree that colored sound from a PA system is not a good thing to base a speaker design on.

When I listen to music or voices on my speakers everything sounds very natural, the way I hear it when I am literally in the middle of it. That, to me, makes a good loudspeaker.

If interested, here are a couple cuts of a recording I did of a live show which I engineered. Other than the fact that the lead singer was eating the microphone, when I listen to this on my speakers it sounds like the players are in the room. It doesn't sound like the auditorium they played in but that is near impossible to recreate.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2683357/Regulators.zip

 

[Chu Gai]

Who was the guy and what was the speaker?

 

[3db]

It is absolutely essential. The state of the speaker art is just not good enough to allow math and physics to design a good speaker alone.

In my view it is absolutely essential to know the sound of natural instruments and the human voice. You must listen to them often enough to really get them in your memory banks. In my experience great designers always to final voicing by ear.

Peter Walker of Quad was an excellent flautist. Gilbert Briggs who founded Wharfedale was a pianist of professional concert caliber. Those are just examples.

I'm going to make a statement now that will probably get me on trouble, but I believe it to be true. If you are a rock or electronic music enthusiast you will never design a great speaker.

Could a deaf person design and finish off a great speaker, absolutely not.

I was at a concert last week, and at all times I felt I could just as easily have been listening to my loudspeakers. In particular the bass was to all intense and purposes identical.

Paul Barton from PSB is/was a violinist.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I'm going to make a statement now that will probably get me on trouble, but I believe it to be true. If you are a rock or electronic music enthusiast you will never design a great speaker.

Well, I don't know about getting you in trouble. But, I don't think it's such a black and white question.

If the goal is to build a speaker suited for electric/electronic instruments, then there isn't any reason why an enthusiast of such genres could not do so. I realize that since the sound of these instruments can be manipulated, how does one know if the sound reproduced is an accurate reflection? I don't know if there is an answer to such a question.

However, I consider that to be beside the point. We cannot forget that rock/pop music does not use electrified instuments exclusively. There are acoustic guitars, violins, brass, woodwinds, piano, drums, etc found in rock music.

Plus, there are still vocals to be reproduced by these speakers. To say that recordings of rock vocalists do not require loudspeakers of the same quality as those required for choral/operatic recordings is elitist, not to mention ludicrous (That's not aimed at you, Doc - it's just a general statement). And, any designer worth his salt, no matter what type of music he/she likes, would pay due attention to vocal reproduction as well as instrumental.

Doc, I think you may be letting your music bias colour your opinion....

 

[3db]

Well, I don't know about getting you in trouble. But, I don't think it's such a black and white question.

If the goal is to build a speaker suited for electric/electronic instruments, then there isn't any reason why an enthusiast of such genres could not do so. I realize that since the sound of these instruments can be manipulated, how does one know if the sound reproduced is an accurate reflection? I don't know if there is an answer to such a question.

However, I consider that to be beside the point. We cannot forget that rock/pop music does not use electrified instuments exclusively. There are acoustic guitars, violins, brass, woodwinds, piano, drums, etc found in rock music.

Plus, there are still vocals to be reproduced by these speakers. To say that recordings of rock vocalists do not require loudspeakers of the same quality as those required for choral/operatic recordings is elitist, not to mention ludicrous (That's not aimed at you, Doc - it's just a general statement). And, any designer worth his salt, no matter what type of music he/she likes, would pay due attention to vocal reproduction as well as instrumental.

Doc, I think you may be letting your music bias colour your opinion....

That was gently written and well said.

 

[GO-NAD!]

That was gently written and well said.

Thank-you. I actually forgot to respond to the original question. I do believe that speaker designers should listen to live music, as a reference for their designs. And, plenty of unamplified music at that...

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, I don't know about getting you in trouble. But, I don't think it's such a black and white question.

If the goal is to build a speaker suited for electric/electronic instruments, then there isn't any reason why an enthusiast of such genres could not do so. I realize that since the sound of these instruments can be manipulated, how does one know if the sound reproduced is an accurate reflection? I don't know if there is an answer to such a question.

However, I consider that to be beside the point. We cannot forget that rock/pop music does not use electrified instuments exclusively. There are acoustic guitars, violins, brass, woodwinds, piano, drums, etc found in rock music.

Plus, there are still vocals to be reproduced by these speakers. To say that recordings of rock vocalists do not require loudspeakers of the same quality as those required for choral/operatic recordings is elitist, not to mention ludicrous (That's not aimed at you, Doc - it's just a general statement). And, any designer worth his salt, no matter what type of music he/she likes, would pay due attention to vocal reproduction as well as instrumental.

Doc, I think you may be letting your music bias colour your opinion....

I think you missed the point. Granted/rock pop music features the human voice and other non amplified music, however I still don't believe the results are suitable for speaker evaluation.

Pop artists are close miked, add to which there is Eq, and unless live acoustic isolation techniques at work, to say nothing of artificial reverb.

I have attended those types of sessions, and can not conceive of any way i could use the result as a yard stick for speaker evaluation.

On the other hand there are many classical recordings that are recorded with minimalist microphone techniques that record the performers faithfully and retaining information of the acoustic space.

This should not be interpreted to mean that speakers designed this are only for classical music. In fact I'm certain a good speaker for classical music is also a superior pop/rock speaker, even though an listener of that genre might not pick it out at first listen.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I think you missed the point. Granted/rock pop music features the human voice and other non amplified music, however I still don't believe the results are suitable for speaker evaluation.

Pop artists are close miked, add to which there is Eq, and unless live acoustic isolation techniques at work, to say nothing of artificial reverb.

I have attended those types of sessions, and can not conceive of any way i could use the result as a yard stick for speaker evaluation.

On the other hand there are many classical recordings that are recorded with minimalist microphone techniques that record the performers faithfully and retaining information of the acoustic space.

This should not be interpreted to mean that speakers designed this are only for classical music. In fact I'm certain a good speaker for classical music is also a superior pop/rock speaker, even though an listener of that genre might not pick it out at first listen.

All good points, but I still would not make any assumptions about the abilities of speaker designers based on their taste in music. You appear to believe that a designer who prefers rock music, will design a speaker using that genre as a reference. Some may, some may not...

I won't argue with your last point. Although some will disagree, I firmly believe that a good speaker is a good speaker - regardless of the genre of music being played through it. And, any designer should use unamplified music as the reference for their designs, as anything amplified is coloured to some degree, by default. And, no designer should assume the type(s) of music that will be played.

So Doc, we may be arguing both sides of the same coin.

 

[j_garcia]

I would whole heartedly agree that speaker designers should be listening to a lot of music, preferably live. According to the comment, he is listening to a wide variety of stuff in a wide variety of venues, probably both amplified and non, so that sounds about right, though twice a week almost seems excessive. Most of the concerts I've been to recently have all been ear plugs required, so that is another factor. I don't want to damage my ears so that I can't enjoy those speakers at home.

 

[highfigh]

I think you missed the point. Granted/rock pop music features the human voice and other non amplified music, however I still don't believe the results are suitable for speaker evaluation.

Pop artists are close miked, add to which there is Eq, and unless live acoustic isolation techniques at work, to say nothing of artificial reverb.

I have attended those types of sessions, and can not conceive of any way i could use the result as a yard stick for speaker evaluation.

On the other hand there are many classical recordings that are recorded with minimalist microphone techniques that record the performers faithfully and retaining information of the acoustic space.

This should not be interpreted to mean that speakers designed this are only for classical music. In fact I'm certain a good speaker for classical music is also a superior pop/rock speaker, even though an listener of that genre might not pick it out at first listen.

I'm not sure 'get in trouble' is the right phrase but I also have to disagree. When someone records a voice or instrument, they usually want it to sound a certain way. That goal may be to sound as realistic as possible, it may be to have great presence or it may be to subdue a voice that's hard to listen to because it's just, well, horrible- to some. I have a serious problem when an engineer takes the attitude of "we'll fix it in the mix" when someone can't sing at proper pitch. IMO, those singers should take vocal lessons and stay out of the studio until they can do it right. Realism is the usual goal, even in rock and pop- if it wasn't, why would they want someone to play a specific instrument instead of something "right off the sales rack"? It's because they do sound different enough that it will make a better recording. Even if the instrument is amplified, the goal is still to make a recording that sounds like a particular guitar being played through a particular amplifier. Someone who knows the sound of many different amplifiers will be able to identify it almost immediately because some have distinct characteristics, caused by the output section, type of phase inverter, use of/lack of bypass caps, type of bias circuit, speakers, etc.

I think you're lumping all rock in one bin and it's not all the same, just as all classical music isn't the same. My brother calls some classical music 'trite' and has different adjectives for other pieces. One large area of interest for him is Early Music, which is very difficult for many to listen to, let alone like it. I have played some of his music on my system and he thought it was very realistic. He's not just a listener, either. I didn't build and tweak my speakers for one type of music because I listen to a wide variety, including some classical. I don't want the instruments to sound like anything other than what they are, recorded as well as possible and that goes for all genres. Human voice is probably the most critical, though. It's often thinner than normal, "chesty", "reedy" or can be described by one/more of several other words but when it sounds natural, it meets the main goal of why we do this.

When I hear a TV/radio program or a recording of someone I know personally and it sounds like that person's in the room, I know something is right.

I do agree that many people who listen to rock and pop wouldn't be able to design a great speaker, but it's not only the fact that they listen to these kinds of music. It's more because they damaged their hearing so badly that it's impossible for them to know when it's really accurate. Accurate to them, when they have a hole in the 2KHz-6KHz range is not going to make the rest of us happy.