Should I Upgrade or Not?!?

[audiofox]

My HT room is very similar in size to yours, so I will describe my setup for your consideration. I have the JVC HD250, which was an upgrade from my Panny AE900u. The difference was night and day, to put it mildly-the JVC is better is every respect, including effective screen brightness, one of my most critical specifications. I project onto a Da-Lite Model B 92" diagonal 16x9 screen (HCMW material, screen gain is ~1.1), which is a decent screen but is now the weak link in the video part of my HT. The walls and ceiling are not very dark-the walls are a medium tan, and the ceiling (cathedral-style, lowest height is around 10 feet) is whitewashed T&G pine. I have a couple of torchiere lamps-one near the equipment rack and projector at the rear of the room, and another near the front of the room. I sometimes leave the rear lamp on when watching (same reason as you-I don't like wearing my movie snacks!), which is not an issue for all except certain movies (like Sin City or other similar movies with lots of dark and low contrast scenes). The ceiling height helps a lot with respect to the impact of its light color on the projector display, since there is little to no light reflection from it because the top edge of the screen is a minimum of 4 feet from the ceiling. In addition to painting the walls a darker color (the ceiling will always be the same color-I lost that battle a long time ago), my long term plan is to add the lamps to my URC remote control subsystem so I can control the lighting without having to jump up and down during a movie-that might work for you as well for the same reason. The projector is approx 2 feet behind the main seating area but was directly above it for a short time-the projector fan noise was inconsequential even for quiet passages of movies.

That's all I can think of-hope this helps you with your decision. Good luck!

 

[delte7]

Well I took my panny apart and cleaned the prism. It clearly brighten things up according to "the eye" test. I don't have any equipment to test how many lumens I gained but I'm very pleased with the results never the less. My son confirmed my initial "eye test" as he came down after school and asked if I got a new projector. He was not aware I had cleaned the prism so that fact that he noticed straight away solidified the improvement.

The bad news is the black/gray contrast levels are still pretty poor in my opinion. I still have to run thru the calibration disk but I'm not hanging my hat on the fact that it will improve it to my liking. While I have had some recommendations for a larger white screen with higher gains, I don't believe that will help with details on black/gray scenes or games that are dark in nature. My adjustments to my lighting and cleaning the prism have the brightness to an acceptable level in my opinion. With the exception of dropping a bundle on a new projector and exceeding my budget I'm not sure what other options I might have at this point.

Thoughts ?

 

[jostenmeat]

Well I took my panny apart and cleaned the prism. It clearly brighten things up according to "the eye" test. I don't have any equipment to test how many lumens I gained but I'm very pleased with the results never the less. My son confirmed my initial "eye test" as he came down after school and asked if I got a new projector. He was not aware I had cleaned the prism so that fact that he noticed straight away solidified the improvement.

I'm glad it worked out!

The bad news is the black/gray contrast levels are still pretty poor in my opinion. I still have to run thru the calibration disk but I'm not hanging my hat on the fact that it will improve it to my liking. While I have had some recommendations for a larger white screen with higher gains, I don't believe that will help with details on black/gray scenes or games that are dark in nature. My adjustments to my lighting and cleaning the prism have the brightness to an acceptable level in my opinion. With the exception of dropping a bundle on a new projector and exceeding my budget I'm not sure what other options I might have at this point.

Thoughts ?

There is no doubt that a new PJ will be a huge improvement. Even going to another Panny will be a huge improvement, and this is even when they don't have the same black levels as Epson. JVC takes black detail even further. Remember, no DI either, so you have better intrascene contrast. Really, you can pick a budget, and have a great PJ. I think I've already spelled out what you get with more money, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[GranteedEV]

Regarding games, I don't think they're made with movie industry video standards in mind.

My experience is to turn the gamma way up from movie mode, and then play with the game's individual gamma dial. Even then you don't know if you're getting the true calibrated experience like you would with movies.

If I had to guess, gaming calibration is probably more similar to PC monitor calibration as opposed to HT screen calibration.

 

[delte7]

GranteedEV: Good point and I have done just as you suggested. I created a specific profile on my panny for playing games. I basically tweaked the "Game" profile. I then bump up in game brightness/gamma when available to do so. Even with these settings it can be frustrating at times while playing.
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Having said all that I think I am ready to move forward on some things. Here is the direction I'm going to move in.

Epson 8700UB: While I really have enjoyed my panny the extra brightness and contrast on the 8700UB just cant be ignored compared to the PT-AE4000U, especially when I take into account my frustrations with black/gray details and how I typically watch movies/play games (some low light on). Not to mention the price deal going on right now (1,899.00 after instant and mail in rebates). Then throw in a free bulb and up to 4,000 hour bulb life. When I mapped out TCO over the next couple of years it just made sense for me to go with the Epson.

114 Inch Carada Precision screen: I'm going with brilliant white and the 1.4 gain. If things are too bright based on screen size, screen gain, and projector I can always scale it down via eco-mode or different profiles (If true this is a good problem to have I think). I figure its better to have to much than not enough. I am going with 114 Precision over the Criterion due to logistics. I know the criterion has a much better frame but that extra few inches will push me over the top with center speaker placement. Mounting the speaker on the ceiling would be difficult as I have a drop ceiling. With the 114 Precision I have JUST enough room for the center speaker to sit under the screen.

I have run the cost by my wife and she gave me the green light !! At roughly 2,750.00 for the screen and new proj I think I'll be more than happy with the results. I have to get some financials in order to make the move but I plan on purchasing in the next week or so.

NOTE: While the JVC was very tempting and clearly a cut above the 4000U and 8700 I just could not swing it. I'm a firm believer in "you get what you pay for" but at the same time I'm not one to try and live above my means. That balance can be tricky.

I'm pretty confident that based on my current set-up, viewing habits, budget, and expectations this is the best config for me. As always, I welcome additional feedback and suggestions.

 

[jostenmeat]

These are solid choices. Regarding JVC, I said it before, I don't think the performance may be worth paying for in your shoes, however, the one key benefit from your perspective would be reliability as well as the sealed light paths, and most particularly for a smoker.

Regarding the screen choice, it seems that you are "pushing" it, and just might be pigeon holing future possibilities. What if you ever wanted a larger and more capable center speaker for instance? What if you wanted a WTMW horiz speaker for better offaxis performance along with greater extension?

Because of this center speaker issue, I wonder why you aren't considering the Seymour XD screen. Even if unwilling to go DIY, you can still afford it within this budget, if going with the Epson deal. You will likely go smaller than your intended 114" because the screen will now be closer to you. Or maybe not, because you now have the freedom to go as big as you want, and not only without worry about center placement, you'd in fact have the best possible center placement.

Their screens come with the highest quality black hole velvet as border too.

Depending on your seated distance, you would be advised in checking out a sample to see if you can discern its texture.

 

[delte7]

I did some measuring and it looks like I would have to build a frame that would come out about 8 inches from the wall. For various reasons and how my finished basement is set-up it's just not practical. Keep in mind, while my family and I do use it primarily for watching movies, sports, and playing video games we also hang out in it and play board games, play computer games (it has a portion setup with computer/monitor) and a small part that I use when working from home. I know some of you have a dedicated space for JUST watching movies. I'm not that fortunate. Because of my inability to build out the screen I ruled the seymour out. I did calibrate the audio placement in the room. My speaker placement sounds very good IMO. I'm going with the 114" as it was suggested I should be at 120" based on sitting 15 feet back from the screen. (I'm currently using 110" screen).

 

[jostenmeat]

Setting an HT up is like a game. Anyways, of course I'll take your word on your limitations since we don't have any plans or diagrams here, but I don't see a board game taking up a ton of space in a room that is 25' long. For the office portion, I simply assume it's behind the seating which does make me scratch my head about its influence on screen choice, but anyways . . .

I'd consider moving back another 6" to 21". This gets you from either the starting listening position of 38% length to the lowest ideal proportion at 33%. There might be nothing more important to audio than listener positioning, according to many. But like I said, it's a big game, and you pick your spots. This % is not necessarily from the back wall, and can be front wall, but I offered back wall as an example since you're closer to that point. This is the defacto starting point for the best avoidance of axial modes in a rectangular room, and 33% would be the lowest it would go with the inclusion of nonaxial modes, depending on the particular room.

I figure it's better to tell you know than when it's all said and done. Good luck, not that you need it, as you chose great products, and you should be extremely happy with the upgrades.

 

[chesbak]

Regarding the numbers game, you absolutely cannot trust the mftrs, and must instead look towards 3rd party reviews. Often, they will be done in best mode, which often means not only the best color accuracy, but in high lamp mode.

So sometimes a PJ is way brighter than a JVC, perhaps including Pana/Epson, historically. Then you calibrate them, and all of a sudden the JVC is significantly brighter. There is little brightness lost on a JVC when calibrated, comparatively, historically.

Also, JVC overstates their lumens to a much lesser degree.

3LCD and single chip DLPs for that matter are often stating their contrast with the use of a dynamic iris. JVCs simply don't use them, and don't need them. You understand how a DI works, yes?

It is IMO not worth spending the money particularly on the superior contrast of a JVC if most viewing is with lights on. It COULD be worth it for better reliability, but that's a value judgment depending on warranties in question, CMS, free bulbs, etc.

PM BMX for HD250 quote, if interested. Much less than you probably think, but I did already mention price, or maybe not. The Seymour XD is $20 per linear ft for the wide stuff, and something like $13 for the narrower stuff. You could spend $40-80 on decent to top grade wood for the frame, and some super cheap doug fir for the false wall. Well, this is similar to what I did.

IOW, you can have new screen, false wall, JVC projector, within the limit of your original budget. I too was at 15' and now at 12', with the false wall. 11.5' I believe is the guaranteed distance where you cannot discern its texture with 20/20, according to a very well known calibrator/installer, 3rd party. I for one can be much closer and still not notice.

I agree with the 3rd Party reviews...