Should I add Height to this setup?

[Linwood]

Yes, he's back with another "my room is difficult" whine, but a more specific question.

Below is my room to date. It's KEF Q11's up front with a Q6 center, Q1's for Surround L/R (no back) and SVS PB-1000 Pro x 2 up front.

I do not know if I can get speakers in the ceiling. I've already had a low voltage company tell me they could not get wiring to the bay window ceiling, but maybe they can get to where the red X's are, I will have to have them come look. "Can't get there" as in from above, clearly we could tear out the ceiling and run from below, but that's a bad idea for a number of reasons (for example blown in insulation that would be really tough to restore when a lot falls out, much less the mess).

But maybe, and I can ask.

Option 1 is "who needs height" of course. And honestly everything sounds pretty good. But this hobby is addictive.

Option 2 is very easy, up-facing Q8's on top of the Q11's. But most things I read say up facing really do not work well enough to bother? But it is a hard surface ceiling.

Option 3 if I can get the wires run is one pair on the X's above the sofa. I don't think there is room for front/back height speakers (well, not for back). It's also possible due to access these may need to go a bit forward toward the console, not directly above the sofa. I would want flush mount speakers, not something hanging down, it's a really low ceiling.

I've drawn in some dimensions. In addition the sofa is about 1' off the wall so the SR/SL are slightly behind the listener. The bay window is about 3' deep.

PS. The X's are intended to be roughly over each end of the sofa. Looking at the perspective of the image I think I as I drew them they seem more toward the camera, but think over each end of the sofa, maybe 8' apart (they could be more).

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, he's back with another "my room is difficult" whine, but a more specific question.

Below is my room to date. It's KEF Q11's up front with a Q6 center, Q1's for Surround L/R (no back) and SVS PB-1000 Pro x 2 up front.

I do not know if I can get speakers in the ceiling. I've already had a low voltage company tell me they could not get wiring to the bay window ceiling, but maybe they can get to where the red X's are, I will have to have them come look. "Can't get there" as in from above, clearly we could tear out the ceiling and run from below, but that's a bad idea for a number of reasons (for example blown in insulation that would be really tough to restore when a lot falls out, much less the mess).

But maybe, and I can ask.

Option 1 is "who needs height" of course. And honestly everything sounds pretty good. But this hobby is addictive.

Option 2 is very easy, up-facing Q8's on top of the Q11's. But most things I read say up facing really do not work well enough to bother? But it is a hard surface ceiling.

Option 3 if I can get the wires run is one pair on the X's above the sofa. I don't think there is room for front/back height speakers (well, not for back). It's also possible due to access these may need to go a bit forward toward the console, not directly above the sofa. I would want flush mount speakers, not something hanging down, it's a really low ceiling.

I've drawn in some dimensions. In addition the sofa is about 1' off the wall so the SR/SL are slightly behind the listener. The bay window is about 3' deep.

PS. The X's are intended to be roughly over each end of the sofa. Looking at the perspective of the image I think I as I drew them they seem more toward the camera, but think over each end of the sofa, maybe 8' apart (they could be more).

View attachment 76935

I would just enjoy and get used to what you have for the time being.

Those upfiring speakers put on top of mains are useless and worse than a waste of money.

Honestly those ceiling type speakers add little. I have four ceiling speakers placed to Dolby specs. I only did it as it was new construction in a new space. I built the boxes for them and I had amps to spare. It is ok to demo the odd helicopter or plane over head. It does I think they do improve the ambience of concert halls with the upmixer and especially native Atmos sources. However, I could easily live without it, and be very happy.

When it comes down to it, two good fronts and may be a sub or two give you 90% plus of the experience. One thing I do know, is that adding lesser speakers is a downgrade in the bed layer speakers. I think a lot of center speakers are a big downgrade. Very few are actually any good. They are by far the most difficult speakers to design. I spent more time and research on my center, than any other project I have ever undertaken. It is a speaker that I am really proud of and it is totally unique. The ear is very used to human speech for one thing. I can tell you that truly natural human speech reproduction is absolutely the hardest challenge facing any speaker designer. The clear, intelligible and natural, sets the bar very high indeed. When you add that you have less space to work with and it also needs to handle comparable spl. to the mains, it is close to an overwhelming task.

 

[Wardog555]

Don't waste time and money if you going to disrespect the placement of speakers.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yes I would definitely add them. Some Atmos is better than no Atmos imo. It’s NOT only about overhead sound. Audio objects present in an Atmos track have metadata attached to them, and can place them in 3d space. It’s really uncanny sometimes how sounds can phantom image(like the way a singer can appear between a single pair of L and R speakers) into the room. With only two overhead speakers, you won’t get any front to back panning up there, but it should make for a good experience by still being able to tie the bead layer and overhead layer together. Also, Dolby surround and dts neural x can upmix regular sources to include all speakers.
For placement I would go straight above the knees as seated on the couch. Also place them 45° apart, with seated ear height as the reference point.

This is for 5.x.4, but it’s the same process to get 45° left and right.

 

[Linwood]

Thank you William. I assume the blue circled 5 are surround back (vs surround l/r). I've been told I don't have enough space in that bay for surround back. Nor for the height back.

I'm waiting to hear from the installers if they think they could get to that area (right above0. Want to find the crew that already has been here, hopefully they remember. Bad time of year to get the attention of any trades though.

I absolutely hate having an attic I can't go into, never happened many houses. But I'd just get stuck and die.

It's interesting how various very experienced people have diametrically opposite opinions.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thank you William. I assume the blue circled 5 are surround back (vs surround l/r). I've been told I don't have enough space in that bay for surround back. Nor for the height back.

I'm waiting to hear from the installers if they think they could get to that area (right above0. Want to find the crew that already has been here, hopefully they remember. Bad time of year to get the attention of any trades though.

I absolutely hate having an attic I can't go into, never happened many houses. But I'd just get stuck and die.

It's interesting how various very experienced people have diametrically opposite opinions.

So the blue circles will be surrounds, not rear surrounds as I pulled the image from a 5.1.4 diagram. The circles for the ear level speakers aren’t really for any placement guides. Just there to give you an idea of the speakers involved, not necessarily where they go. I mainly included that shot to illustrate that finding 45° just means measuring from ear height to the ceiling. Then go that distance equally to the left and right of the MLP. It could make more sense to mount bookshelf(BS) speakers to the ceiling although an 8’ ceiling doesn’t afford much extra airspace. Lolita seen it done though…
I agree, you don’t have room ,imo for rear surrounds, or rear top/height. But I think 5.x.2 would be nice. There are naturally differing opinions like most things. However, TLS is a curmudgeonly old Brit! Of course I kid. He’s a nice chap who only lives a couple hours from me.

 

[Linwood]

However, TLS is a curmudgeonly old Brit!

I told a friend the other day he was becoming crotchety in his old age.

He emphatically told me he was a curmudgeon and not crotchety. So some people embrace the term.

Yeah... I don't want bookshelf style speakers hanging from the ceiling, it's too low.

I'm handicapped by trying to preserve this all was primarily a living room not a home theater. A couple of my visitors (relatives mostly) don't even want the TV/music on they just want to talk.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I told a friend the other day he was becoming crotchety in his old age.

He emphatically told me he was a curmudgeon and not crotchety. So some people embrace the term.

Yeah... I don't want bookshelf style speakers hanging from the ceiling, it's too low.

I'm handicapped by trying to preserve this all was primarily a living room not a home theater. A couple of my visitors (relatives mostly) don't even want the TV/music on they just want to talk.

Good thing visitors eventually go home! Hopefully… lol especially if they’re relatives.
lol!!!

 

[Kingnoob]

I would just enjoy and get used to what you have for the time being.

Those upfiring speakers put on top of mains are useless and worse than a waste of money.

Honestly those ceiling type speakers add little. I have four ceiling speakers placed to Dolby specs. I only did it as it was new construction in a new space. I built the boxes for them and I had amps to spare. It is ok to demo the odd helicopter or plane over head. It does I think they do improve the ambience of concert halls with the upmixer and especially native Atmos sources. However, I could easily live without it, and be very happy.

When it comes down to it, two good fronts and may be a sub or two give you 90% plus of the experience. One thing I do know, is that adding lesser speakers is a downgrade in the bed layer speakers. I think a lot of center speakers are a big downgrade. Very few are actually any good. They are by far the most difficult speakers to design. I spent more time and research on my center, than any other project I have ever undertaken. It is a speaker that I am really proud of and it is totally unique. The ear is very used to human speech for one thing. I can tell you that truly natural human speech reproduction is absolutely the hardest challenge facing any speaker designer. The clear, intelligible and natural, sets the bar very high indeed. When you add that you have less space to work with and it also needs to handle comparable spl. to the mains, it is close to an overwhelming task.

Atmos feels like a gimmicky format , maybe in a dedicated theater it’s ok but I’ve never seen a movie theater here that even had Atmos. Why must it be so challenging to use this technology? My Yamaha has pseudo Atmos capabilities yamaha tsr 5810 for 2 presence or whatever you select . But I can’t wall mount or ceiling etc so I haven’t bothered. Only satelites on stands I tried once but not too long. Haven’t tried it again.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Atmos feels like a gimmicky format , maybe in a dedicated theater it’s ok but I’ve never seen a movie theater here that even had Atmos. Why must it be so challenging to use this technology? My Yamaha has pseudo Atmos capabilities yamaha tsr 5810 for 2 presence or whatever you select . But I can’t wall mount or ceiling etc so I haven’t bothered. Only satelites on stands I tried once but not too long. Haven’t tried it again.

Gimmicky? Have you heard an Atmos system?

 

[Kingnoob]

Gimmicky? Have you heard an Atmos system?

not a properly setup one nope. Just the extra channels are driving up receiver costs by a lot.
I-only meant Gimmicky because the challenges of setting it up. What percentage of the sound goes to those channels 5-10%?
but on wall or ceiling rules out me using it in this room. I’m sure for many people who don’t own there house it’s not happening . My only real sub is still not being used regularly, also. Should have never got it .
I’d have to have my own place to try it out (can’t afford that…all I see are low pay dead end jobs ) besides if I got bounce house or re tried sats /speakers on stands in bedroom. Still that would only be 2 speakers and not on ceiling so not true Atmos.
stores here like bestbuy aren’t serious about audio anymore got rid of there sound room 20 years ago .
the point was commercial cinemas haven’t adopted it here.
No I haven’t been to a movie theater in 5 years or more and cinemarks still doesn’t have Atmos. The best most expensive room there is auro 11.1 . everything else is just normal no special speakers or anything.
Which is definitely good but I’d have to buy more earplugs to go there all mine went missing . So Atmos is more of a home format than movie theater.
It very well might be worth it, … perhaps cinemas are too cheap to invest in it.

 

[Eppie]

I'm with William on this one. While your room is far from ideal, so is mine. I used to have my rear speakers in the ceiling, right in the corners. I eventually removed them and put the side-surrounds at ear level, where they should be. I then added ATMOS by installing new ceiling speakers just slightly ahead of the couch / sofa, as the room was too small for 4 ATMOS speakers. I also have low ceilings so in-ceiling was the only option. I was able to use the previous ceiling wiring, so not that big of a job. I have since replaced the small surrounds with Philharmonic Audio mini monitors and removed the rear flat panel speakers as they performed very poorly (so that was a short lived experiment). For ATMOS I went with Paradigm in-ceiling speakers; the low profile grills are quite thin. I'm pretty happy with the setup now and find that the ATMOS speakers do add to the immersiveness.

I would avoid the up-firing ATMOS speakers. They can interfere with your main speakers and it is hit or miss as to whether the effects will work. Properly placed ATMOS is the way to go. Just two speakers given the width of your room. I included a photo, but just to show where my ceiling speakers are. The rears are now gone and the surrounds are larger and black. Need a corner shelf for the one speaker too. I really should update the photos of my system.

 

[Linwood]

Good thing visitors eventually go home! Hopefully… lol especially if they’re relatives.

There's the old joke about visitors being like fish - good for two or three days, then they start to stink.

I would avoid the up-firing ATMOS speakers. They can interfere with your main speakers and it is hit or miss as to whether the effects will work. Properly placed ATMOS is the way to go. Just two speakers given the width of your room. I included a photo, but just to show where my ceiling speakers are. The rears are now gone and the surrounds are larger and black. Need a corner shelf for the one speaker too. I really should update the photos of my system.

Thank you. It's not a democracy, but I am trying to figure out if there is a consensus. Another friend put in front atmos at the top of his wall facing the rear, and loves them; I'm surprised their 3d location is really distinguishable from his (tower) fronts. But seems also another "aye".

This does bring up the issue -- are there pre-made shrouds for speakers going into a ceiling with blown-in insulation? Are you supposed to frame up (sadly in my case working from below) around them? Or something the loose equivalent of the old "cans" for lights that you can put in?

 

[j_garcia]

I have an upfiring setup with fronts and rears and it works quite well. My room is ~30x35, completely open, and cathedral ceiling, so nowhere to put them in ceiling or on the back or right side.

In your case, it is the seating position that is the issue. You are to the rear of the listening area, making heights harder to deal with. I would put them just in front of you as William showed. Adding them to the front will make them give you a really huge front stage with some effect, but won't quite be as good as above.

Yes, there are foam or wood speaker backs for in-ceiling. Examples:

Amazon.com

Amazon.com

https://www.bestbuy.com/product/sonance-medium-round-acoustic-enclosure-enclosure-for-select-6-5-in-ceiling-speakers-each-unfinished-wood/J78WL7PT7P/sku/6290835?utm_source=feed&extStoreId=&ref=212&loc=SaleEvent&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23322172982&gbraid=0AAAAAD-ORIga8iKSqiMqObJ_ddvPO1ra3&gclid=Cj0KCQiA9OnJBhD-ARIsAPV51xOnAcxztt-Tu5rEyf6Gi1htylPovWnEOSs6vAquJQ3PqMNe8t94P0UaAtp8EALw_wcB

 

[Linwood]

Yes, there are foam or wood speaker backs for in-ceiling. Examples:

Perfect, Thank you, I should have found those, didn't search adequately. I think those (except maybe the wood one) can easily be done from below. Actually even that one, just make the whole smaller and slide it in and back (while being showered by insulation of course). Now just to hear from the LV guys.