Separates are no better than AV Receivers, Objectively

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If there were so many, as you suggest, The Audio Critic, Audio, et al, would still be publishing with the largest subscriptions. No, those folks are in the minority, that is why Stereopile is so successful, lots of gullible folks

I do like the actual measurements done by Stereophile, though, don't you?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

With this in mind lets think for a second. The human threshold for hearing specification X is a certain number. That means any value technically, and truly, better than this will have no audible differences, but if the specification is lowers or worse than this value there will be audible differences hence my previous posts. I didn't think it needed to be spelled out, but I guess it does.

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Just one follow up on this. When threshold testing is conducted, sensitive signals are used, not music, so, music may be and has much higher threshold levels. Certainly, music thresholds can be tested, but then, that too would depend on the music complexity or simplicity, like a flute.

 

[cfrizz]

Not to me Mtrycrafts and probably not to 99.9% of the HT buying public! Basically what you have just told me is that all the manufacturers lie about the specs.

What's achieved by maxing out 1 channel is totally irrelevant to what happens with all channels but the manufacturers pretend that that 1 channel is representative of all channels.

No one listens to just one channel, and we know that utilizing all the channels say for 5 channel stereo which I listen to a lot puts a strain on receivers.

Even when watching a movie the 3 front channels are probably being pushed to their limits and it shows usually with loud explosions but unclear too soft dialog because the majority of the power is being directed to the 2 front speakers.

That is the most common complaint I come across is that the center channel is too soft or unclear. This is where my amplifier makes a big difference. Now all of my 3 front channels are evenly balanced & the center is as clear as a sunny day. Only the surrounds are a little bit higher. Before that my center had to be pushed way up over the 2 front in order for me to clearly hear the dialog.

I wish there was some way to force the manufacturers to truthfully state the correct numbers. Until that day comes I will trust the numbers printed in reviews by S & V!

 

[mtrycrafts]

No, really? Geez, I thought someone just picked a number out of thin air and we all just believed it.

And I highly doubt that any of these studies were DOUBLE-BLINDED.

Which studies are you referring to? His citations? Others? Which one? this is critical. If you referring to the cited papers, perhaps you need to invest and convince yourself that Toole did in fact use DBT protocols as does the research at NRC in Canada.
Also, the JND publications are also DBT. Threshold research needs to be done properly to appear in Journals.

Many of the magazine publications were also conducted under DBT conditions. One reason to find the citations presented so you can see for yourself.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just one follow up on this. When threshold testing is conducted, sensitive signals are used, not music, so, music may be and has much higher threshold levels. Certainly, music thresholds can be tested, but then, that too would depend on the music complexity or simplicity, like a flute.

That is an excellent point.

Test Tones do NOT equal Actual Musical Notes, and we all know how complex music and sound can be.

Just because some people cannot discern a -20dB crosstalk, 1% THD, & +/-3dB deviation in Freq. Response of TEST TONES does not mean the same for actual music.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Not to me Mtrycrafts and probably not to 99.9% of the HT buying public! Basically what you have just told me is that all the manufacturers lie about the specs.

How so? How do they lie? Why would they when they could be made to look like fools? The days of the wild west power ratings of the '70s are long gone.

What's achieved by maxing out 1 channel is totally irrelevant to what happens with all channels but the manufacturers pretend that that 1 channel is representative of all channels.

Obviously you are confused what is claimed by what is published. That is not my fault.

No one listens to just one channel, and we know that utilizing all the channels say for 5 channel stereo which I listen to a lot puts a strain on receivers.

Well, the issue is when will all channels be driven to max at the same instant? Please point to some soundtrack where this happens, and some scope display of this. It just doesn't happen. So, the ACD has no meaning, period.
As to straining the amp under 5 ch, that too doesn't happen.
It may sound like that but when you scope it in time, it doesn't, so, the caps can recharge and be ready.

Even when watching a movie the 3 front channels are probably being pushed to their limits and it shows usually with loud explosions but unclear too soft dialog because the majority of the power is being directed to the 2 front speakers.

Sorry, sheer speculation.

 

[Dezoris]

You should listen to my braided cables!

They are the bomb.

Too many people spend too much time and money on AV gear when you can just spend a couple grand on cables and be done.

Any time you want to put your cable up against mine be my guest. I can hear the difference as soon as I turn on my Optimus.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I do like the actual measurements done by Stereophile, though, don't you?

They do tend to do a good job measuring. Hard to cheat when others could point out their mess-up After the specs, well, it is purely speculations and writing to sell. Few buy that mag just for the numbers though.

 

[mtrycrafts]

That is an excellent point.

Test Tones do NOT equal Actual Musical Notes, and we all know how complex music and sound can be.

Just because some people cannot discern a -20dB crosstalk, 1% THD, & +/-3dB deviation in Freq. Response of TEST TONES does not mean the same for actual music.

Actually, if you would have been reading the Journals and conference papers where the data has been presented, you would find that sensitive test tones are used because that gives the lowest threshold of detection.

Other signals, speech, music, etc, thresholds are much higher because of their complexity, masking, etc so the THD would be much higher,, like 1% with simple music and more with complex music, but also with the frequency bands involved. Bass is an example. Subs are rated to 10% distortion for a reason instead of 1% or .1% Because no one can tell that 10% in subs.

Here, let me give you a link to Axiom's research:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html#

In some cases 100% is not audible in bass

Now, with sensitive signals, this distortion is way down, well below 1%, .01 % perhaps.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So looking at the attached table in the first post, if we used the same speakers and external amps, would those pre-pros and receivers sound "equivalent"?

Which specification, do you feel is the most important and makes the most difference?

Low amp output impedance( SS usually have that) FR and THD, I would say. Just remember, you cannot clip the amp to make it look bad must operate within design limits.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Are there published studies on this?

Are there actual published blinded studies that proved amplifiers with similar power ratings, THD, frequency response, crosstalk, and output impedance sound differently from each other?

Are there actual published blinded studies that proved audio cables & wires sound differently from each other? In other words, Monster Cable will sound differently from AudioQuest from Kimber Kable from Vampire Wire from Blue Jeans Cable?

Well, here is an example of amp comparisons with 3 golden ears
I think that amp, may be a tube amp to boot, not sure though

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0


One amp, the Yam, $300, the other $15K. 3 could not differentiate them on his reference system.
I am sure the specs are also somewhat different as well.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Do you recall this famous amp test?

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Too many people spend too much time and money on AV gear when you can just spend a couple grand on cables and be done.

Any time you want to put your cable up against mine be my guest. I can hear the difference as soon as I turn on my Optimus.

Shoot, I got you beat there, buddy.

I can hear the difference before I even turn on my sytem!

 

[cfrizz]

Well I'll take my ear proven speculation over your time wasting number crunching BS Mtrycrafts. While you & your kind are doing that, I'm sitting back & enjoying my music. And that is all that matters & is important to ME!

I'm outta this crap!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well I'll take my ear proven speculation over your time wasting number crunching BS Mtrycrafts. While you & your kind are doing that, I'm sitting back & enjoying my music. And that is all that matters & is important to ME!

I'm outta this crap!

Well, you got an awesome Sunfire/Rotel system, so enjoy!

I would love to have that 800 WPC x 5 @ 4ohms Sunfire amp, but $3,500 is a little too much for me.

That $3,500 Sunfire pre-pros is too expensive for me too.

 

[fmw]

Well I'll take my ear proven speculation over your time wasting number crunching BS Mtrycrafts. While you & your kind are doing that, I'm sitting back & enjoying my music. And that is all that matters & is important to ME!

I'm outta this crap!

I wonder how he enjoys music when he's listening for ultra subtle audible differences. I never could. I enjoy it now that I've stopped listening to equipment. Ah well.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wonder how he enjoys music when he's listening for ultra subtle audible differences. I never could. I enjoy it now that I've stopped listening to equipment. Ah well.

Well, if I feel that I'm getting the best possible sound, then I can start enjoying the music.

If I feel that the sound seems a little compressed or not as clear or not enough bass or too much bass, etc., it bothers me too much to even enjoy the music.

That's why I don't even care for music in a car, on a laptop, MP3, or other "compromised" sources.

I know, I know. It's weird. Maybe even crazy. Mabye obsessive compulsive. Maybe anal-retentive. I can't even enjoy my food if I know there is a fly somewhere in the room, for example. Everything has to be just right.

 

[cfrizz]

You too can have a $3,500 Sunfire ADTG! All you have to do is stalk Audiogon for over a year like I did, & get one for $1,350! I wanted one to go with my Sunfire amp that I bought from another member of a forum I belong to. I paid $1,800 for it.

It was simply a matter of being patient. I knew I couldn't afford the newer TGP's so I got the older model that had all the bells & whistles that I wanted it to have. I knew that the prices on the older ones would start dropping. Well finally one day last year I struck gold! It arrived in perfect condition & looks brand new & sounds terrific!

So for less than half the money it would cost to buy these new, I bought them used. So don't be afraid to check out Audiogon!

Well, you got an awesome Sunfire/Rotel system, so enjoy!

I would love to have that 800 WPC x 5 @ 4ohms Sunfire amp, but $3,500 is a little too much for me.

That $3,500 Sunfire pre-pros is too expensive for me too.

 

[audioman00]

not really apples to apples, but...... the NAD 2100

I scored a NAD 2100 monitor series power envelope power amp for $100, hooked it up last night and there is no doubt that it out performs my yamaha rx-v800 receiver.... it handles the 4 ohm load just as well, but the sound is A LOT better. More dynamic, and the bass is really punchy now too. So, ya the yammi has a hell of an amp section in it, but if you buy a nicer separate amp, you will notice a difference. I wanted to share that update, as I was kinda on the receiver side till now.

 

[mouettus]

it out performs my yamaha rx-v800 receiver

Do you mean the rx-v1800?! Cuz I got the same receiver and I think the amp section is plenty enough. Though 120 yammie watts is killed by 100 NAD watts.

What kind of speakers do you have??