separate amp question

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
highfihoney said:
im not so sure you'll get any constructive advice on this subject here, this question may be better posed over at audiogon or another site where there are many more members with experience running external amplification & those who offer advice offer from their own personal experience instead of offering advice based on theory & bs dbt data.
highfihoney said:
I see. Send him to a site where they will tell him what he wants to hear, not what the facts are, right???
What if that personal experience is biased and unreliable??? How will he separate the wheat from the chaff??? Or, is that even important as long as he gets what he wants to get???
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
mike c said:
hi highfihoney, my mysteries:

1) we dont have returns here ...
2) in your opinion, will my movie watching benefit from a separate amp

What speakers are you driving with what receiver power. How loud you like to listen? Have a powered sub?
 
B

bandit

Audioholic
My experience was this -

A while back (before HT was a big deal) I used and swore by my Adcom seperates. GTP-500 preamp/tuner and GFA545 amp. These were/are excellent components in my opinion. Then along came Home Theater and I decided on a Sony 555ES 5.1 channel reciever. Frankly - I was suprsided at how well it compared to the Adcom seperates. It was very clean and was capable of volumes that I would never use. (And I like it loud from time to time)
I think your best off to listen to what you are thinking about - side by side if possible. :)
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
mtrycrafts, Infinity Beta 50 (towers, dual 8 woofers, 90-91db sensitivity); I dont have a measurement of loud, but yes, I like it loud. yes, with power subs.

bandit, the only chance I can get to do a side by side is within brands (e.g. rotel receiver vs. rotel separates) but I will try my best to be able to do that.

highfihoney, what about your opinion on no.2?
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
mtrycrafts said:
highfihoney said:
im not so sure you'll get any constructive advice on this subject here, this question may be better posed over at audiogon or another site where there are many more members with experience running external amplification & those who offer advice offer from their own personal experience instead of offering advice based on theory & bs dbt data.
highfihoney said:
I see. Send him to a site where they will tell him what he wants to hear, not what the facts are, right???
What if that personal experience is biased and unreliable??? How will he separate the wheat from the chaff??? Or, is that even important as long as he gets what he wants to get???
this member has posted this question & varaitions of this question several times within the last few months on this site, now that tells me that he is not getting any advice at all,read the responses to his previous threads on this subject,what should he do? keep asking the same question over & over again on this site or go somewhere else where people have actually tried external amplification & have veiws based on experience.

you are the reason i recomended to this man that he look elsewhere for advice,you offer no personal listening experience or insight on this subject yet you post in every last external amplification thread until it turns into a mess of nonsense that nobody with helpfull advice on the subject wants any part of.

once again watch the guys with first hand knowledge on this subject avoid this thread like the plague.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
mike c said:
mtrycrafts, Infinity Beta 50 (towers, dual 8 woofers, 90-91db sensitivity); I dont have a measurement of loud, but yes, I like it loud. yes, with power subs.

bandit, the only chance I can get to do a side by side is within brands (e.g. rotel receiver vs. rotel separates) but I will try my best to be able to do that.

highfihoney, what about your opinion on no.2?
hi mike,ive read & posted in some of your previous threads on this & i wish i had a good answer for you but if i post any listening experiences ive had it will just drag your thread further into the mud with the nonsense that automatically follows any report of a difference being heard.
 
The13thGryphon

The13thGryphon

Audioholic
mike c said:
1) we dont have returns here ...
2) in your opinion, will my movie watching benefit from a separate amp
Hi Mike,

I can't say whether there would be enough difference to make it worth the additional cash for you... but it did (and still does) for me. Some of it will depend on your speakers and room, some on your choice of movies and music, and some on the associated equipment.

My first home theater system was based upon a Marantz SR-4200 receiver (70 watts per channel). At the time I had two pairs of speakers in the house, and decided that I’d build a surround system around one of the two. I had a pair of Klipsch Forte’s and a pair of KEF Q75’s. Both of these speakers are efficient, and neither is seemingly a difficult load. The Forte is a 96dB (1 watt/1 meter) speaker with a nominal 8 ohm rating. The Q75 is a 91 dB (1 watt/1 meter) 6 ohm nominal speaker.

With 96 dB sensitivity and an 8 ohm rating one would think you could use pretty much any amplifier with the Klipsch Forte’s. This, however, is not the case. Apparently, in order to match the output levels of the midrange and tweeter drivers (those horns, you know) to the 12” woofer, Klipsch used a transformer in the crossover circuit. Transformers are inductive by nature; which means that while the amplifier doesn’t have to have a high power output, it does need to be able to deal with a very difficult load caused by the inductor’s presence. Using an inexpensive receiver with these speakers is entirely the wrong approach. What’s needed is an amplifier that can deal with difficult loads without any problems. Not high power… high current… or at least a design that has “grunt” as I call it.

Therefore, my Marantz receiver/Klipsch experiment failed miserably; muddy, tubby, and generally unappealing sound was the result. Luckily, the KEF’s sounded very nice with the Marantz, which allowed me to begin building my home theater anyway.

My point, however, is that impedance and sensitivity are not the only parameters in the speaker/amp interface to be concerned with. Phase angle and inductance must also be taken into account, at a minimum.

After several months of enjoyment with my new system I wondered how it would sound with a separate outboard amp instead of the internal amps in my Marantz receiver. Not that it wasn’t loud enough… just that I wanted a more dynamically realistic presentation for both music and movies. Therefore, I grabbed my battleship amp (a Harman-Kardon Citation 22) which is rated at 200 watts per channel.

The difference was obvious (to both my wife and I). Not as great as the difference between the Klipsch and KEF speakers of course, but significant none-the-less. Even with the relatively mild-mannered KEFs there was greater dynamics and impact, greater detail and clarity, greater growl in the bass, better low bass extension and accuracy, and overall, a much more lifelike and exhilarating presentation. This was true both on music and watching movies... though admittedly some albums and some movies showed the differences more clearly than others. And where the Marantz wouldn’t play nice with the Klipsch Forte’s, the separate Citation amp made them sing!

Now I truly understand that not everyone wants to spend the additional money for a separate power amp. Not everyone wants those extra boxes hanging around. Not everyone seems able to hear a difference, or the difference just isn’t great enough to warrant the expenditure for them. But there is a difference; and in my opinion, for the better.

For me, it was indeed enough to warrant the cost. YMMV
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
mike c said:
mtrycrafts, Infinity Beta 50 (towers, dual 8 woofers, 90-91db sensitivity); I dont have a measurement of loud, but yes, I like it loud. yes, with power subs.

Those are 8 ohms and most likely that sensitivity is in an anechoic chamber as most are; axiom lists in room as well. The in room sensitivity would be 95dB spl. I doubt you will gain anything, especially having the sub.
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
highfihoney said:
mtrycrafts said:


this member has posted this question & varaitions of this question several times within the last few months on this site, now that tells me that he is not getting any advice at all,read the responses to his previous threads on this subject,what should he do? keep asking the same question over & over again on this site or go somewhere else where people have actually tried external amplification & have veiws based on experience.

you are the reason i recomended to this man that he look elsewhere for advice,you offer no personal listening experience or insight on this subject yet you post in every last external amplification thread until it turns into a mess of nonsense that nobody with helpfull advice on the subject wants any part of.

once again watch the guys with first hand knowledge on this subject avoid this thread like the plague.


highfihoney, with all due respect I find your posts more johnny one note that Mtry's and your heels dug in as hard or harder than his. I may not agree with his style and manner of posting, but also there seems to me an edge of arrogance in your posts. I suggest a look in the mirror.

And as to the OP, if he keeps getting the same answer every time he posts the same question on this board it's not Mtry's fault. He just might be getting good info. There are plenty of members of this forum so that both sides most issues are voiced weather or not you, me or mtry have posted on a thread.

I could be right, I could be wrong, but that's the way I see it.

Nick
 
A

AKAJohnDoe

Enthusiast
The main reasons to have a separate amp and pre-amp are either to have more flexibility in controls, features, or upgrading or to be able to select the better components.

Mathematically, if one selects two (or more) of anything in a series the reliability and quality will be lessened by the lesser of them.

I do have a all-in-one for the HT and separate for the audio system. In fact, I have dual power amps on the audio system. Sort of an extension to bi-wiring.
 

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