separate amp question

[mike c]

for those who believe that a separate amp will give better sound ...
are you talking about music only? both?

I am curious because I am a 90% HT and 10% music guy

 

[Josuah]

I purchased an Outlaw 7100 and used a Yamaha RX-V1400 as my pre-amp. I didn't hear any noticeable difference between the RX-V1400's amp section and the 7100 at normal listening levels. When I did push things harder, I know for certain scenese technically I was pushing ~100W (6ohm speakers) into at least the three front channels, and that the RX-V1400 isn't capable of doing that. But there was some distortion coming from somewhere. Probably the RX-V1400's pre-outs.

So that wasn't a huge improvement for me. However, I recently upgraded to a DMC-1 and MPS-1 combination, which resulted in a startling improvement. I was not expecting it at all. Probably in part from my experience with the 7100. The MPS-1 is stable to two ohms, which maybe the 7100 was not, and perhaps my speakers hit 2ohms in some places. Don't know. But since I also got the DMC-1, I couldn't tell you that the improvement comes from the amplifier. I'm certainly not using more power from the MPS-1 than I was from the 7100.

 

[mike c]

josuah, but you changed your pre pro too. but anyway, are you talking about music or movies?

 

[johsti]

Mike, I'm not even going to pretend I know the answer to your question, but I think a power amp will make a difference in music and HT depending on the circumstances.

Inefficient, hard to drive speakers should benfit greatly with a good separate power amp. Some super sensitive Klipsch speakers may not make any significant difference at all.

I think this is why you see one group of people that say power amps make a huge difference. This group might have hard to drive speakers or a weakly powered AVR, or the combo of both. Then there's the group of people that say they noticed no differece or barely a difference. They more than likely have sensitve speakers or a decently powered AVR, or both. Everything is relative.

If you're thinking about adding a power amp to the mix, do it. I did and realized it was overkill for my setup. Maybe if I used a better or more powerful amp than the Crown xls 402, I would have noticed more of a difference, not sure. However, I doubt I needed more than 260 watts per/channel into my fairly efficeint 8 ohm BIC towers. The difference to me was negligible for movies and music, so I took the power amp back. Now I don't have to wonder how much better it could be with an amp.

I will say that things played louder with less distortion with the power amp, but I was never going to listen that loud for any extended period of time. I was just seeing what it could do.

 

[MacManNM]

Well, I was running a Yamaha 2500 and it sounded pretty darn good. Even at louder levels. My system sounds the best when I cut the LFE over at 60Hz, and have all the speakers set to small. I installed 2 - 2/ch amps of lesser power than my 2500. I noticed quite a bit of improvement in overall sound quality. So to answer your question, yes it will help out with HT.

 

[mtrycrafts]

are you talking about music only? both?

It must be both, if it helps. The amps don't know what you are pumping into it Electrical signals are just that to it

 

[Josuah]

Yeah, I changed both which is why I can't tell you if I had only gotten the amplifier if things would have sounded so much better. And also yes, it is for both music and movies. There's no such thing as a movies or music speaker, or electronics, or whatever. It's either good at what it does, or it isn't.

The only reason I can think of people saying something is good for movies but not for music, or vice versa, is because they like the way one or the other sounds when it sounds worse than intended. Like using a cable that attenuates frequencies for whatever reason.

Well, I suppose the other reason would be compromising. Maybe in a movie environment you wouldn't care about the audio quality as much as the SPL.

 

[mike c]

exactly, in movies ... you are listening to the data / storyline / dialogue / effects of the sound (therefore you pay less attention to the SQ).

with music, you are listening as much to the sound itself as the lyrics.

 

[Jack N]

I agree with most of the posters above, and I think I can add something to them. With all of the above mentioned variables remaining constant, adding an external amp to a mid or high end receiver will yield very little if you’re using it mainly for movie dialog because dynamic range is pretty limited. Where you would hear a difference is in any type of movie where dynamic range comes into play – mainly musicals and action type movies, with explosions and such. The improved dynamic range of a stand alone power amp is readily heard.

With music on the other hand, dynamic range is prevalent from one moment to the next. The improvement in head room can easily be heard here as well. Generally speaking, we’re talking about power supplies and capacitors. Simplistically speaking, the more you have the better the dynamic range.

I use my system more for music than movies, so it was an easy decision for me to go this route. In fact, I took it to an extreme. I have a mono-block amp for each of the 8 channels in my 8.1 system. The increase in dynamic range and the ability to play the lower frequencies was immediately noticeable. There’s just nothing better than 8 channel stereo, that is of course unless it’s 9 or 10 channel stereo. LOL !

 

[mtrycrafts]

exactly, in movies ... you are listening to the data / storyline / dialogue / effects of the sound (therefore you pay less attention to the SQ).

with music, you are listening as much to the sound itself as the lyrics.

I think one also listens to music in movies. I for one like the Diva singing in
5th Element, especially with that background scene. To me, it is heavenly

 

[mike c]

I like that part of the movie too

 

[djoxygen]

I think there can only be one answer to this question: It depends.

You could buy a separate amp that's worse than the amps in your receiver, or you could buy one that's better. And "better" and "worse" are subjective terms anyway. Plus the interconnects between receiver and amp are adding one more layer of connection between the signal source and the speakers. One more (or 6 or 8 more) place to pick up interference, have an impedance mis-match, or if your cat likes chewing on cables...

If there is a specific quality you find lacking in your HT experience (not loud enough, not enough dynamic range, lack of clarity in dialog, etc...) then you could try to determine where the source of the problem lies, and address it. Could be the built-in amp, might be something else.

 

[eddiem67]

I added an Earthquake Cinenova Grande (5x300) to my Denon a few years ago, it improved all the small subtleties in a movies that you would normally miss with a less powerful amp. So to me, the flies flying around in Gladiator when he sees his family killed felt like the stupid fly was in my room, or the pebbles rolling on the floor in Fying Daggers was so more natural sounding because of the headroom of the external amp.

The bad thing is, once you go to seperates you never go back.

 

[Josuah]

With music on the other hand, dynamic range is prevalent from one moment to the next.

The vast majority of music, especially popular music, has much less dynamic range than movies. There is much greater dynamic range in a movie just when a person stops talking. You only need as much headroom as your maximum SPL target. If you listen to movies with dialogue at around 50-60dB, your peak SPL will probably only be around 80-85dB, which means you might only need a dozen watts peak. It all depends on your setup.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... have an impedance mis-match, .

Not in analog audio there isn't. Not impedance matching dependent.
Even a digital audio can be successfully transmitted through a metal coat hanger

 

[Jack N]

“The vast majority of music, especially popular music, has much less dynamic range than movies.” You are absolutely correct. My mistake. I should have said that music needs more head room and/or reserve because of the rapid peaks and valleys. I stand corrected.

 

[Josuah]

I should have said that music needs more head room and/or reserve because of the rapid peaks and valleys.

I think rather that might mean such music needs more watts RMS, to maintain the average volume. The "peaks and valleys" are in a relatively small range, say 6dB, which would mean going from 1x to 4x the power requirements and so you probably want your watts RMS to be at that 4x rating. But unless you're listening to music really loud, that shouldn't be that much power.

Say, very inefficient speakers at 85dB. If you're sitting 12 feet away and want to listen to music with that 4x level at 85dB you only need about 12 watts.

 

[highfihoney]

i cant understand why the issue of external amplification is such a mysterious deal,all it takes is $300 to go to any guitar center & buy a 200 wpc amplifier & anybody can hear the benifits in their own system,if the benifits are not there simply return the amp for a full refund.

way too much mystery surrounds this issue.

 

[mike c]

i cant understand why the issue of external amplification is such a mysterious deal,all it takes is $300 to go to any guitar center & buy a 200 wpc amplifier & anybody can hear the benifits in their own system,if the benifits are not there simply return the amp for a full refund.

way too much mystery surrounds this issue.

hi highfihoney, my mysteries:

1) we dont have returns here ...
2) in your opinion, will my movie watching benefit from a separate amp

 

[highfihoney]

hi highfihoney, my mysteries:

1) we dont have returns here ...
2) in your opinion, will my movie watching benefit from a separate amp

hi mike,no returns in your country? THAT REALLY SUCKS

im not so sure you'll get any constructive advice on this subject here, this question may be better posed over at audiogon or another site where there are many more members with experience running external amplification & those who offer advice offer from their own personal experience instead of offering advice based on theory & bs dbt data.

any report of hearing a difference will surely lead to more nonsense like is constantly posted in these type threads like dbt's, spl's,speaker sensitivity & my personal favorite (EAR BLEEDING LISTENING LEVELS).

i hear differences between my reciever & my amplifiers.