Search for my speaker

[zieglj01]

I finally felt satisfied with my setup. Btw Audisey set them as full range, so that's pretty cool to have 4 speakers capable of full range. I kinda promised Denis I will not use ER0W2s as surrounds, but the music sounds so nice in 5.0 with them.

Thanks for checking back - nice report. Have Fun.

 

[Nuance AH]

It seems the issue is with the high frequency.

With the Philharmonic, you can adjust the HF response with the 2 tweeter pads. If you prefer the HF tapered down from 5kHz to 12kHz (-5dB for example), you use 2 pads.

I prefer a flat FR from 200Hz-12kHz, so I will be using just one tweeter pad.

From what I gathered he said the midrange was the issue...???

That fact the the Phil's have the ability to adjust the highs is simply outstanding! I prefer flat all the way to 20KHz, but I usually don't toe-in the speakers, so the response is probably slightly down at that point anyway, as if I was listening on-axis but using the pad to taper the response a bit. Although, my in-room measurements only show them a couple dB down...not bad.

 

[Swerd]

yveletnik

After reading your initial response after first hearing SongTowers, I was surprised you bought them. But you did, and I'm glad. Keep with them and you'll be glad too.

Mids is where the problem starts I think they are both AWSOME and AWFUL…

There is something in the mids of Hard Rock mixes that makes that awesome speakers sound awful. Is it possible that Hard Rock mixes are bad in general and an accurate speaker just brings it out?

Bass is really nothing to brag about, it’s there, it’s clean and fast and it has no punch. Definitely need a sub for them…

So anyways to right off the back I played 'Chris Rea – The road to hell' it has a nice steady bass and drums and my first impression was where the hell is the bass???????!!!!!!!! I mean nothing, nada…

Then I tried watching Transformers and another surprise came along when I could actually feel the building collapse…

So I was kinda puzzled. How come STs play the deepest bass of sound effects, measure flat down to 25Hz and yet lack in bass department when playing music?

So the bad ones I hit is Nirvana, AC/DC, Barry White, Chris Rea and many more, I can honestly say that I cannot enjoy listening to about 1/3 of my collection… Barry White got blacklisted because he sounded kinda like Barry Junior (without his usual deep tone).

Another possibility is that I just never heard what a real quality speaker sounds like. All my life I was listening to either old communist Russia speakers or latly my PC or car speakers, Now that I hear the real thing it's just different from what I'm used to.

What you have described is classic. I really think you are very much used to the sound of speakers you used to listen to. (What were those old commie Russian speakers?) You are not the first person who initially thought that STs lacked bass. It may take a while for your ears, and thinking, to adjust.

Many inexpensive speakers, and especially those in cars, have exaggerated bass response in roughly the 50-100 Hz range. It’s deliberately done by designers to boost weak bass response. The technical term is “high Q bass alignment”. This can help smaller speakers develop a more potent bass response, but it comes with a major downside. The exaggerated bass rings on and on. A single bass note that begins and ends, can sound like it continues for some time. This is definitely not in the recording – it’s caused by the speaker. With many rock recordings where the bass plays more or less continuously, this effect not only provides quite a lot of extra bass (more than is in the recording) but it also muddies up the sound of most of the midrange. This is especially true in most car sound systems I’ve heard. You commented on how Barry White lost his “usual deep tone” and sounded like Barry Junior instead. The same thing is going on with Barry's voice.

If that is the sound that you were used to hearing, then I’m not at all surprised with your reaction to STs. They are your first speakers that don’t add excessive bass and don’t muddy up the midrange. Give them time. I think you’re already on your way and are beginning to think the same thing.

As you spend more time with the STs, just for fun, listen to Barry White, Nirvana, AC/DC, or even Nora Jones on your old system (if you still have it), or in the car, and observe just how muddy sounding they've gotten once you are used to the STs. Once you get used to the clean sound of the STs, most other speakers sound unacceptably muddy in comparison. Then there is no going back.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Salk Saver to the rescue.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I kinda promised Denis I will not use ER0W2s as surrounds, but the music sounds so nice in 5.0 with them.

Actually, I thought you were going to use them as surrounds. Anyhow, it looks like they've found a good home. I was kind of confused by your reference to a $1,000 price tag. I don't offer them, but Jim does sell the same speaker, called the SongSurroundI, for $895 (with a nicer cabinet).

 

[Swerd]

Is that "EROW2" a bookshelf 2-way speaker with one ER15 driver and a Hiquophon OW1 tweeter? Or is it with an OW2? Just curious.

 

[yveletnik]

Like who?

a few people on aoudiogon think of SongTowers as borderline bright, some say bright. I saw one post there saying that STs are just not worth all the fuss.
another member here told me straight up that he DM sound signature is just not his type of speaker.
another spot in a review here (otherwise really positive review):
World Premier! Salk Signature Sound SongTower QWT Loudspeaker An out of the park home run! Review By Nels Ferre
"Not everything is perfect with the SongTowers, however. One night, for whatever reason, I decided I wanted to hear "Carrie Ann" by The Hollies. What the SongTowers offered up was cold, harsh, and bright."

so people mostly praise the STs but there are people that don't like them as well.

Exactly. The Phil's also won't make bad recordings sound good; No good measuring speaker will do that. You'll get more bass, but if anything the Phil's will be more resolving in the midrange. If the recordings sucks so will the sound. Garbage in, garbage out.

Can you take some in-room measurements so we can see what's going on?

here are measurements 1/12 rounded, both speakers running at the same time, since then I moved speakers away from the walls and set them wider, so need to get current readings and separate measurements as well

By the way, I listen to heavy metal on my SongTower's and it sounds awesome. It will, of course, depend on the sound quality. For instance, Redemption's "This Mortal Coil" sounds like they recorded it in a garage - just terrible. The same can be said with Metallica's "Death Magnetic." While playing the same albums in my car it is more listenable, but I am missing a lot of detail. On the other end of the spectrum, Dream Theater's "Awake" sound amazing, and so does the Joe Satriani's "Electric Joe Satriani: An Anthology." Bad recordings shouldn't sound good on hi-fi speakers; if they do there is something wrong with the speaker. Rock music just isn't recorded well, which is something we should all know by now. It breaks my heart but it is what it is.

I did get those recordings and I have to say that they do sound good on STs.

The way I see it is Dennis makes flat speakers without any compromises, voices them to play classic music right. That's a very respectable approach but I guess it doesn't work for most popsy, rocksy stuff.
Sure my room is not perfect, maybe placement is not good either but it does not change the general tonal balance (just came up with that term ) of the speakers.

Here is another example, the best speaker I can compare to I guess would be the CM9, I guess it should qualify as a HiFi speaker on par with STs. I take a recording (Chris Rea - Road to Hell) that sounds fine on CM9, just the way it always sounded to me, full bodied, powerful... I take that same recording and play on STs and get body-less shrill and scratch my had thinking where the hell the bass went?
So if that means that Road to Hell is a "bad recording" how come it sounds good on CM9? I guess B&W made compromises when they voiced the CM9 so it can play non-audiophile grade music well (maybe toned highs and upper midrange down, maybe added upper base for illusion of full bodied sound). Is it bad that they stepped away from the flat? In perfect world yes, in reality it's a hard call. Depends on the kind of music you listen to, unless someone is willing to change their taste in music to accommodate their speakers.

I didn't give up on the STs, I just accepted the fact that STs are picky about the source material. The reason I didn't send them to audiogon yet is because when I feed them a fitting recording they are AWESOME.

I'll pm you better measurements maybe you'll have some recommendations. I was wondering if you guys are set on records you will listen in that meeting in Wisconsin? You think you could play 1 Adele's song (actually just 10 seconds will be enough), I want to see how it will sound on STs vs Phils vs Sierras? I can pm you details on the song.

Thanks for taking time to help me.

 

[yveletnik]

It seems the issue is with the high frequency.

With the Philharmonic, you can adjust the HF response with the 2 tweeter pads. If you prefer the HF tapered down from 5kHz to 12kHz (-5dB for example), you use 2 pads.

I prefer a flat FR from 200Hz-12kHz, so I will be using just one tweeter pad.

Yeah, that's all nice but I'm trying to figure out how to even start convincing my wife that those 2 ugly boxes are our new speakers (I don't have a dedicated room). I would have to get Phil2's with custom veneer and even that's a long shot.
But that adjust feature is nice though, like a switch on Soundscapes i guess, can we also have a built in equalizer too?

 

[yveletnik]

yveletnik
If that is the sound that you were used to hearing, then I’m not at all surprised with your reaction to STs. They are your first speakers that don’t add excessive bass and don’t muddy up the midrange. Give them time. I think you’re already on your way and are beginning to think the same thing.

As you spend more time with the STs, just for fun, listen to Barry White, Nirvana, AC/DC, or even Nora Jones on your old system (if you still have it), or in the car, and observe just how muddy sounding they've gotten once you are used to the STs. Once you get used to the clean sound of the STs, most other speakers sound unacceptably muddy in comparison. Then there is no going back.

Thanks for answer, I do hear my car stereo and computer speakers differently now. I realize what I was missing before, like all the details, I know that they are there and I hear them now but way hidden, before I didn't even pay attention. And I guess I'm getting used to SongTowers as well, but I just learned to avoid recordings that don't sound good on STs. The problem is with movies soundtracks where any next song can be hit or miss.

You right, I was kinda puzzled when some of old songs that I listened and loved all my life all of the sudden sounded like complete trash and some sounded great. I guess that's the price you pay for owning HiFi speakers.

 

[yveletnik]

Actually, I thought you were going to use them as surrounds. Anyhow, it looks like they've found a good home. I was kind of confused by your reference to a $1,000 price tag. I don't offer them, but Jim does sell the same speaker, called the SongSurroundI, for $895 (with a nicer cabinet).

I meant the MBOW1/CAOW1 that goes for $1,000; but from pictures looks like the cabinets that I have are taller.
Thanks for speakers again.

 

[yveletnik]

Is that "EROW2" a bookshelf 2-way speaker with one ER15 driver and a Hiquophon OW1 tweeter? Or is it with an OW2? Just curious.

ER15 and OW2

 

[Nuance AH]

a few people on aoudiogon think of SongTowers as borderline bright, some say bright. I saw one post there saying that STs are just not worth all the fuss.
another member here told me straight up that he DM sound signature is just not his type of speaker.
another spot in a review here (otherwise really positive review):
World Premier! Salk Signature Sound SongTower QWT Loudspeaker An out of the park home run! Review By Nels Ferre
"Not everything is perfect with the SongTowers, however. One night, for whatever reason, I decided I wanted to hear "Carrie Ann" by The Hollies. What the SongTowers offered up was cold, harsh, and bright."

so people mostly praise the STs but there are people that don't like them as well.

Thanks for the info. No speaker is perfect, so no one speaker will appease everyone. Wouldn't it be nice if one did, though, and was low cost to boot?

here are measurements 1/12 rounded, both speakers running at the same time, since then I moved speakers away from the walls and set them wider, so need to get current readings and separate measurements as well

For some reason the image isn't showing up.

I did get those recordings and I have to say that they do sound good on STs.

Very cool.

The way I see it is Dennis makes flat speakers without any compromises, voices them to play classic music right. That's a very respectable approach but I guess it doesn't work for most popsy, rocksy stuff.
Sure my room is not perfect, maybe placement is not good either but it does not change the general tonal balance (just came up with that term ) of the speakers.

Dennis does design flat speakers, yes. Unfortunately poor recordings just don't sound good, which is a bummer, but it's not the fault of the speaker.

The room actually can change the tonal balance, by the way.

Here is another example, the best speaker I can compare to I guess would be the CM9, I guess it should qualify as a HiFi speaker on par with STs. I take a recording (Chris Rea - Road to Hell) that sounds fine on CM9, just the way it always sounded to me, full bodied, powerful... I take that same recording and play on STs and get body-less shrill and scratch my had thinking where the hell the bass went?
So if that means that Road to Hell is a "bad recording" how come it sounds good on CM9? I guess B&W made compromises when they voiced the CM9 so it can play non-audiophile grade music well (maybe toned highs and upper midrange down, maybe added upper base for illusion of full bodied sound). Is it bad that they stepped away from the flat? In perfect world yes, in reality it's a hard call. Depends on the kind of music you listen to, unless someone is willing to change their taste in music to accommodate their speakers.

Here's a measurement of the CM9:

You'll notice the CM9 is not a flat measuring speaker, and therefore has colorations and a sound of it's own. It would seem it meshes better with some of the recordings you mentioned and therefore produced a more pleasing sound. This is just fine and dandy, but well recorded material won't sound anywhere near as good. The CM9 is a flawed speaker.

I didn't give up on the STs, I just accepted the fact that STs are picky about the source material. The reason I didn't send them to audiogon yet is because when I feed them a fitting recording they are AWESOME.

Hey, if they aren't for you then sell them; all that matters is if you like them or not. You gotta do what you gotta do.

I'll pm you better measurements maybe you'll have some recommendations. I was wondering if you guys are set on records you will listen in that meeting in Wisconsin? You think you could play 1 Adele's song (actually just 10 seconds will be enough), I want to see how it will sound on STs vs Phils vs Sierras? I can pm you details on the song.

Thanks for taking time to help me.

Sounds good - I look forward to the measurements and would be happy to help in any way I can. I will recommend the Adele song (which one is it?) for our GTG in April.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I buy accurate speakers. If the recordings are bad, I throw them away and find better versions.

2 wrongs doesn't make it right.

But I can't get over that "1/3" of your collection sounded bad. How many CDs is that?

 

[yveletnik]

Sounds good - I look forward to the measurements and would be happy to help in any way I can. I will recommend the Adele song (which one is it?) for our GTG in April.

I just checked the AK fest in April and it's like 3 miles away from my friend's house in MI. So I can leave the family there for a day and go hear some speakers, so no need to add any songs for me at your GTG.
It only shows like 20 exhibitors for this year, is it all or they just don't post them all? Will people like Ascend or KEF be there? Probably stupid questions, but it's my first audio show.


thnx

 

[yveletnik]

I buy accurate speakers. If the recordings are bad, I throw them away and find better versions.

2 wrongs doesn't make it right.

But I can't get over that "1/3" of your collection sounded bad. How many CDs is that?

don't have many CDs, but it's around 2k songs in ITunes and like 100 CDs. Maybe like 20 video concerts (those really eat up my space). I'm still rebuilding my collection with flacs... so a 3rd of that is around 100 CDs I guess.

which reminds me, gotta download stuff that I shazamed recently

shazar-torrent-shazam-torrent; that's the way to do it, probably why I end up with all of those "poor quality" mixes

 

[Nuance AH]

I just checked the AK fest in April and it's like 3 miles away from my friend's house in MI. So I can leave the family there for a day and go hear some speakers, so no need to add any songs for me at your GTG.
It only shows like 20 exhibitors for this year, is it all or they just don't post them all? Will people like Ascend or KEF be there? Probably stupid questions, but it's my first audio show.


thnx

They are not stupid questions.

I am glad you'll be able to make it to AK Fest - congrats! It is possible the full list of exhibitors may not be on the website, but I don't know for sure. Vendors like Ascend don't attend these trade shows as far as I know, but I don't know about Kef. Salk and Dennis Murphy should be there, though.

 

[yveletnik]

Uodate

Little update, the SongTowers are gone. I got bookshelfs from Denis that sound close to SongTowers and for now will be running them along side with KEF R300s (if I go KEFs way I would probably either go for Q900 or R500, but R300 should give me a good impression).

You know like people say that all good speakers sound alike? Well these 2 sound nothing alike, totally different, night and day. I just got KEFs and need a few days to digest the impressions. But my wife's out-of-kitchen-while-washing-dishes-and-listening-to-music opinion was 'too soft'. For SongTowers is was too fatiguing. Her favorite is still the Aperion Verus Forte, go figure...

I had a chance to listen more of ER0W2s while STs were gone. (Note to myself: see post#18.) I found more differences after a few days. They do sound much smaller comparing to STs. They are even more picky about source material than STs. I had an impression they sounded brighter than STs and measurements showed that they are 2-4 Db higher in 600-6Khz region. But in general they can do all the STs do just on a smaller scale.

One thing that I noticed from the beginning and after more listening it became very apparent is imaging on ER0W2s is WAY better. With STs you kinda hear/see approximate spot where instruments or singers are. With bookshelfs that place is very well defined. Another thing, image on STs changed on different frequencies, ex, a drummer bangs on bigger drums an his in the middle as he goes to smaller drums it could loose focus or disappear completely. With ER0W2s I can actually see a drummer in the back, little up, and he stays there. With STs with was like picture is blurried, with ER0W2s it's almost like there is empty space around an instrument, really tickles your senses when recording has a nice picture. So that was a nice surprise about the ER0W2s, but I would still pick the STs assuming you have enough room.

So R300 vs ER0W2s is to come. But the difference is so big that I think it's more about KEF's view of HiFi vs Denis' view of HiFi.

 

[cschang]

That's pretty much how I felt about the imaging of the Songtower vs the Sierra Tower, with the Sierra Tower being more "focused".

 

[yveletnik]

That was a busy couple of weeks listening with my finger on A/B switch all the time. But I think I’m done searching, here are my notes. Again this is my opinion only; you shouldn’t take it as advice and always audition for yourself. I mostly do it so I can review my notes in the future.

I’ll use name KEF for R300s and DMs for SongTowers/ ER0W2s

DMs:
Clarity, Detail, Brightness, fatiguing
KEFs:
Laid back, full bodied, easy on ears, dull, boring

My first impression of KEFs was recessed midrange, highs lacking air, as somebody put a towel over the speakers. I used Salk’s demo CD so no surprise it sounded much better on DMs. Still R300’s sound had a nice full body and weight which I craved for and could not get from DMs.

R300s and DMs are 2 totally different sounding speakers, they both claim to be accurate but by comparison DMs sound bright and forward like a 500 watts lamp, KEFs sound laid back, mellow, dark, boring. I’m not sure where the true accuracy is so I’ll just concentrate on the sound.

Voice:
Female like Jennifer Warnes hands down is better on DMs (same for Joan Baez). Her voice alone playing on DMs is enough to fall in love with those speakers. Norah Jones is a split because KEFs show more body in her voice; DMs show more of upper part. Male voices, like Barry White go to KEFs. If I would put Barry on DMs when I bring a date home I would hurt my chances to get laid, with KEFs I would hit a home run.

Acoustic Guitar:
DMs have nice highs that show every pluck and every detail. KEFs have more of the sound coming from the actual guitar body but they don’t show details as good as DMs

Drums:
I actually found Chesky demo of a drum solo to confirm what I hear and on KEFs every stroke has some weight to it and kick drum actually has some feel too. DMs get the top part of the sound, but not the body. Also the cymbals sound was more realistic on KEFs, with DMs cymbals often sounded like synthesized from keyboard. Drums alone make lots of music especially rock sound better on KEF.

Rock rhythm guitar (roar):
KEFs do it right, still not as much as I used to, but maybe because I’m used to cheapo speakers that distort and add more bass. DMs, could never get them to roar.

Highs:
By far sounds better on KEFs, it still has all the information, but it just so delicate and pleasant.

Mids:
The best and at the same time the worst thing about DMs, brings out female voices to scary realism, too forward for lots of the recordings. KEFs are OK I guess, very clean but recessed comparing to DMs.

Lows:
Best on SongTowers, KEFs are much warmer with more power, not as tight at SongTowers, but still pretty good. They are more soothing on KEFs and tight on SongTowers.

Playing loud:
KEF stayed relaxed and pleasant, and actually sounds better loud. With DMs it’s like some1 is screaming in my ear, very annoying and fatiguing.

Wow factor:
Goes to KEF, for me it’s when you walk by and hear them play and go WOW, could never get it from DMs. DMs strengths are uncovered in more intimate listening when you enjoy details, resolution.

Forgiveness:
KEFs will show a bad record but still play it politely. DMs are merciless, I think too much so, there are many records that sound like old radio on DMs while they sound great on KEFs. I had many records that I wrote off as bad, but now with KEFs I can play them again.

Samples:
Jennifer Warnes sound plain awesome on DMs, might be enough reason to keep them.
Adele will have to go to KEF she benefits more from fullness of her voice than details. One example worth mentioning, Fire To The Rain song when violins kick in DMs brake down into painful shrill, KEFs opened up a nice wall of sound without going bright. When I was comparing SongTowers to ER0W2s that song actually gave me a 15 minutes had ache after running 2 times on moderate volume.

Kill Bill vol1 Soundtrack --- Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood / Esmeralda Suite
That recording has a lot going on in highs (horns, violins, guitars, cymbals) DMs mushed it all together into shrill; KEFs kept their composure and were very entertaining.
2 examples above make me suspect that DMs are walking on the bright side.

Norah Jones
Goes to DMs as their midrange adds a really nice tone to her voice; sounds pretty good on KEFs too with extra body.

Avenged Sevenfold/Dream Theater
Goes to KEF, drums, guitars, the whole thing.

Instrument separation is great on DMs, makes it really easy to follow 1 instrument. KEF mushes it all together by comparison.

I think DMs would be a great speaker for studios with all the details and clarity. KEFs are overall more pleasant and would be more popular with general public.

Couple things happened that helped me make my decision:
1. I went to Red Hot Chili Peppers concert and it reminded me what the drums and rock guitar (solo, not the rhythm) supposed to sound like. Their guitar sound is shrill (new player), thing that comes to mind is a sharp steel knife. It supposed to be shrill, but somewhat smooth without distortion. I’m not sure how god the quality of their last CD is but KEF plays it closer to what I’ve heard in the concert. DMs just reproduce thin annoying shrill.
2. A buddy stopped buy so I wanted to show off the R300 and cranked up “Chris Rea --- The Road To Hell” to -5 on my receiver. The result was awesome, very clean highs and mids, solid bass, awesome weighty drums. And they went loud, big and stayed relaxed. My buddy’s commentary was that it plays very clean. Before I actually wrote this song off as a bad recording because of SongTowers, the only way I could get that song to sound half decent is to turn Dynamic Eq on.
3. There was an argument on AVS forum since I’ve sad that DMs designs don’t play rock too well. Apparently it’s not right to say that a certain speaker cannot play a certain genre of music. So to be politically correct I’ll say 90% of rock will sound awful to mediocre on DMs, maybe 9% will match KEFs and just to be safe let’s say 1% will sound better on DMs speakers. So I stand by my opinion that if you like rock music you shouldn’t be considering DMs designs. There is information out there from manufacturers and disappointed customers regarding DMs speakers and rock music, you just need to look. Anyways to prove my point I went through my ITunes to see which artists sound better on KEFs and which sound better on DMs and that was the last drop. I realized that KEF is a much better speaker for me because of my music preference. I think DMs designs are great but they just don’t let me enjoy a big part of the music I like.

 

[Nuance AH]

There was an argument on AVS forum since I’ve sad that DMs designs don’t play rock too well. Apparently it’s not right to say that a certain speaker cannot play a certain genre of music. So to be politically correct I’ll say 90% of rock will sound awful to mediocre on DMs, maybe 9% will match KEFs and just to be safe let’s say 1% will sound better on DMs speakers. So I stand by my opinion that if you like rock music you shouldn’t be considering DMs designs. There is information out there from manufacturers and disappointed customers regarding DMs speakers and rock music, you just need to look. Anyways to prove my point I went through my ITunes to see which artists sound better on KEFs and which sound better on DMs and that was the last drop. I realized that KEF is a much better speaker for me because of my music preference. I think DMs designs are great but they just don’t let me enjoy a big part of the music I like.

I completely disagree, as most of my 400 gigs of rock music sounds great on my Dennis Murphy designed speakers; others have stated the same on AVS after your claim that DM speakers sound bad with rock. They might sound lousy with your music collection, in your room and using your equipment, but that doesn't mean it will for others. We'll agree to disagree.

Congrats on your Kef's - I'm sure they're a great speaker (Kef engineering is tops IMO).