TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If you quoted that Ricci bloke correctly he is to be added to the long line of twerps.

There is no such thing as fast bass. There is nothing fast about it. High and low frequencies travel at the same speed. Whether bass is resonant or not is another matter, that all comes down to Q as I have said again and again. Low Q sounds less resonant than high Q. The crack of the drum comes from the other speakers largely the mains. That is where transient response becomes important. However that implies a high frequency response, which no sub has. Any sound that has a crack to it has to have significant high frequency content.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
If you quoted that Ricci bloke correctly he is to be added to the long line of twerps.

There is no such thing as fast bass. There is nothing fast about it. High and low frequencies travel at the same speed. Whether bass is resonant or not is another matter, that all comes down to Q as I have said again and again. Low Q sounds less resonant than high Q. The crack of the drum comes from the other speakers largely the mains. That is where transient response becomes important. However that implies a high frequency response, which no sub has. Any sound that has a crack to it has to have significant high frequency content.
You are misunderstanding Ricci. He is saying that subwoofers with exaggerated mid-bass response, i.e., 60 Hz and above, may sound perceptually ''faster' compared to something with a neutral response since human hearing is so much more sensitive to mid-bass frequencies versus deep bass. I agree with him. I don't think exaggerated mid-bass sounds right, but some transients are easier to discern in such a response curve, even if they aren't meant to be. It's an artificial way to give an impression of 'detail' much like loudspeakers will have the treble voiced hot to embellish detail. I don't believe he is condoning the practice. I certainly don't
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Old myths, old to you but not to others. That perfectly illustrates your elitism, knowledge you have had in your head directly relates to the lack of knowledge others have and you look down with contempt. Secondly I think you’re referring to some of the memes I posted in the joke forum, obviously you’re a little dim upstairs and unable to separate jokes from reality. Do you carry everything on your shoulders that upsets you, that’s a tough life, set it down and relax a bit, life’s actually good!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You don't even know what elitism is obviously.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If you quoted that Ricci bloke correctly he is to be added to the long line of twerps.

There is no such thing as fast bass. There is nothing fast about it. High and low frequencies travel at the same speed. Whether bass is resonant or not is another matter, that all comes down to Q as I have said again and again. Low Q sounds less resonant than high Q. The crack of the drum comes from the other speakers largely the mains. That is where transient response becomes important. However that implies a high frequency response, which no sub has. Any sound that has a crack to it has to have significant high frequency content.
From Josh Ricci's bass myths section on his site data-bass.com:

Myth: Bass Speed


Subwoofers are Fast / Slow


It is a common misconception that sound quality is related to the woofers speed or quickness, but in fact the woofer's speed is related to the frequency it is producing and the SPL. There are two ways to change a woofer's speed. 1. Change the frequency of the signal it is reproducing or 2. increase the output / excursion. It may sound counter-intuitive, but it is true. There are many other factors that go into making a subwoofer sound fast, or slow, or boomy, tight, airy, or whatever subjective terminology is applied, but that divulges into system design and room acoustics primarily, rather the driver itself. Bass wavelengths by definition are slow to develop. Try listening to a subwoofer operating by itself sometime.


Another important concept along this line of thinking is that a subwoofer with deeper extension will tend to sound slower than a unit with less extension. This should not be surprising. The deepest frequencies are the longest and slowest to develop. If you are not used to very deep frequencies being reproduced it may sound less accurate or slow, but in reality the sub with deeper extension is reproducing content that the less extended unit is simply not producing well or at all. The fastest sounding bass is when there is no bass.


The concepts of overshoot, difficulties overcoming inertia, or ringing after the note ends also fall into this category. These terms indicate smearing in time of the signal. Fortunately it is relatively simple to look at a few things to determine if there is a problem. The driver or system "Q" or damping is one way. There is also group delay, energy decay, etc. Most studies show that the people are insensitive to even moderate amounts of energy delay in the bass range. Generally what causes these types of subjective terms to be used are differences in frequency response, rapid changes in response vs frequency and issues due to room or vehicle acoustics. In most cases the effect that the room has on the subwoofer response and energy decay rates dwarf those inherent to the design, unless the sub exhibits some truly bad issues. What's most important about this myth is that speed is an inappropriate concept of sound quality.


Smaller woofers sound faster than larger woofers


One of the biggest myths about woofers is that smaller units like 8's and 10's sound "tighter" and "faster" than 15's or 18's. Even bigger drivers such as 21's and 24's are supposedly worse than 15's or 18's. This can be true in some specific cases, but as a blanket statement of all drivers this is factually incorrect.


This subjective impression is often caused by factors other than the simple size of the driver. What tends to happen is that the smaller drivers have a lower Qts because manufacturers tend to share one motor design across many different sizes of drivers in the series. They may have the same motor on the 10" driver that they have on the 15 or 18". Unless the motor can compensate for the extra mass it has to push, then the Qts will not be the same as the smaller drivers. Ultimately the larger driver may not be suited for the same kinds of alignments as the smaller driver and ends up requiring a much larger air volume for the same system "Q" and response shape. Typically the larger driver will end up in a higher "Q" undersized system with a less linear response shape that may cause it to sound more uneven or "one note". It may also end up being tuned much deeper in frequency and the increased low frequency output may also cause it to sound "slower" or "heavier". Smaller subs and those using smaller driver sizes are often not asked to go as low and will not have the same low frequency extension in their design. When comparing subs the one with more low frequency extension and output will sound quite different. Having said that, high Qts drivers are not inherently inferior sounding when compared to more efficient, highly damped drivers, but they require larger boxes and less internal pressure to prevent response peaking and increased group delay.


Large sub drivers can be made to have the same motor to cone ratio as smaller drivers. The larger woofers also have more room for bigger suspension components and voice coils which can allow higher power handling, more excursion capability and larger mechanical clearances that simply cannot fit on an 8 or 10" driver frame. It is more expensive to make larger driver sizes in this way, but not impossible. There are a number of good examples on the market. It's just a matter of picking the right driver for the job.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
Sealed vs ported is a myth that goes back a long way, to when many ported subs were one note fart boxes. Like probably before 2005?
Fast forward...
The only advantage to sealed is size. As for HT spl, it can take as many as 4 sealed subs to equal a single ported sub at port tune and probably up to about 40hz. So sealed subs can “theoreticallyl go deeper due to shallower roll off, it’s often overstated and should be mentioned that the sealed sub will have MUCH less output below roughly 35hz.
To me, there’s no reason to buy a sealed sub unless you just don’t have room.
Yeah it seems like you either can get High end sound quality , or high spl :: and lots of ports . How well port is tuned probably determines sound clarity ?or is it driver materials?

My sub is a sound
quality model not so much a spl one .
When I made my diy sealed sub it said if I had gone ported I would had +3 dB but less lower end bass under the tuning point .
But people say stereo integrity si ht 15” is better sealed so I stuck to sealed . It’s plenty loud for a bedroom , if it were in a much large room it would be better off ported .
What about double and triple ported subs I see In ultra premium models ?? So they add even more then +3 db??

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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Sealed subs typically has tighter bass. The type of music I listen to requires it. Ported Subs are larger and more powerful, produce louder bass at lower frequencies, which is preferred for movies.
Huh. That has not been my experience. Nope. Not at all.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Sealed subs typically has tighter bass. The type of music I listen to requires it. Ported Subs are larger and more powerful, produce louder bass at lower frequencies, which is preferred for movies.
Sealed subs do not have tighter bass. Let's allow this myth to die in peace please.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Sealed subs typically has tighter bass. The type of music I listen to requires it. Ported Subs are larger and more powerful, produce louder bass at lower frequencies, which is preferred for movies.
Wives tale....
Unless of course you have some proof. ???
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It's repeated all the time by "audiophiles"...and is on the internet a lot, so it must be true.....LOL.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Wives tale....
Unless of course you have some proof. ???
"Overall system performance is a function of the driver’s Thiele/Small parameters and enclosure volume, which together will determine system Q and the system’s resonant frequency. Below the resonant frequency, sealed subwoofers typically feature a shallow roll-off of 12dB/octave, which also corresponds with relatively low levels of group delay and ringing in the deep bass." [https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/sealed-vs-ported-subwoofers]

"Group delay has been found to be a major predictor of the "tightness" or transient accuracy of a subwoofer system. Group delay, in it's mathematical form, is the negative derivative of acoustic phase with respect to♪ requency. That is, group delay is a measure of how fast the acoustic phase of the system changes. Lower group delay numbers are indicative of a "tighter" sound of the subwoofer (to a certain point; once below a certain threshold, changes in group delay are no longer reliably detectable. The actual threshold is beyond the scope of this page, and as such will not be discussed). Conversely, higher numbers can indicate a "looser" sound."[http://stereointegrity.com/wp-content/uploads/SIGroupDelay.pdf]
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
"Overall system performance is a function of the driver’s Thiele/Small parameters and enclosure volume, which together will determine system Q and the system’s resonant frequency. Below the resonant frequency, sealed subwoofers typically feature a shallow roll-off of 12dB/octave, which also corresponds with relatively low levels of group delay and ringing in the deep bass." [https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/sealed-vs-ported-subwoofers]

"Group delay has been found to be a major predictor of the "tightness" or transient accuracy of a subwoofer system. Group delay, in it's mathematical form, is the negative derivative of acoustic phase with respect to♪ requency. That is, group delay is a measure of how fast the acoustic phase of the system changes. Lower group delay numbers are indicative of a "tighter" sound of the subwoofer (to a certain point; once below a certain threshold, changes in group delay are no longer reliably detectable. The actual threshold is beyond the scope of this page, and as such will not be discussed). Conversely, higher numbers can indicate a "looser" sound."[http://stereointegrity.com/wp-content/uploads/SIGroupDelay.pdf]
What you say is only half the truth. Yes, but if you select a low Q driver you find F3 is so high that you need to start EQ at a point where the driver becomes distressed. So distortion rises and output is limited. Sealed subs are highly inefficient and loudspeaker cones are very poor couplers to the air, and have severe difficulty filling large volumes.

Properly designed ported enclosures can have very acceptable Qt and sound excellent without stressing drivers. The only advantage of a sealed sub is smaller size, after that it is all down hill and negative.

Group delay is greater in ported subs, but its audible effects are very controversial.

I use transmission lines to reproduce the bass in 2 out of my three systems. Now TLs have high group delay, but are highly efficient and can be designed to be aperiodically damped and low Q. However the bass reproduction is the most natural of all, with cone motion tightly controlled and they are highly effective at filling spaces. The bass reproduction of a properly designed TL is incredibly natural. To me that gives the lie to this group delay argument for sealed subs.

Basically putting a driver in a sealed box for the reproduction of the last octave is in fact a terrible idea, with the only thing for it being smaller box size.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Sealed subs typically has tighter bass. The type of music I listen to requires it. Ported Subs are larger and more powerful, produce louder bass at lower frequencies, which is preferred for movies.
Your propogating an old audiophile myth, nothing more. The amount of group delay to be perceived as audible never gets discussed. Its almost akin to chasing the lowest THD number way beyond the point of audability.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
"Overall system performance is a function of the driver’s Thiele/Small parameters and enclosure volume, which together will determine system Q and the system’s resonant frequency. Below the resonant frequency, sealed subwoofers typically feature a shallow roll-off of 12dB/octave, which also corresponds with relatively low levels of group delay and ringing in the deep bass." [https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/sealed-vs-ported-subwoofers]

"Group delay has been found to be a major predictor of the "tightness" or transient accuracy of a subwoofer system. Group delay, in it's mathematical form, is the negative derivative of acoustic phase with respect to♪ requency. That is, group delay is a measure of how fast the acoustic phase of the system changes. Lower group delay numbers are indicative of a "tighter" sound of the subwoofer (to a certain point; once below a certain threshold, changes in group delay are no longer reliably detectable. The actual threshold is beyond the scope of this page, and as such will not be discussed). Conversely, higher numbers can indicate a "looser" sound."[http://stereointegrity.com/wp-content/uploads/SIGroupDelay.pdf]
Pursuing the Truth: While sealed subs have less group delay inherent in the design, EQ used to restore the response to flat adds some group delay back. Also, these marginal differences in group delay are not very audible, if audible at all. Far more important is the in-room frequency response.

Pursuing the Truth:
I call shenanigans. Nonsense again. If a ported subwoofer sounds boomy it’s either a poor design with a non-flat response or is poorly set up (which is not something inherent in ported designs). Well designed ported subs are just as tight and articulate as sealed subs. In many cases, the increased tightness some perceive from sealed subs is simply the fact that there is less bass coming from the bottom octaves in a sealed design. However, that is nothing more than a response issue and can be mimicked in a ported design. While there are poorly designed ported subwoofers, there are just as many poorly designed sealed subwoofers. This is not a point for comparison.
 

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