Sacrify receiver or speakers

[foxnews]

Cool, I found this link

based on the recommendation table at the end of the article, the question now is How do I know if Axiom m80 has "high efficency" or "low efficency"?

and I assume that Onkyo 606 and Pioneer Pioneer VSX-1018TXH are "Mid-fi receiver" ???, based on the same table.

 

[Gimpy Ric]

Rethink the decision to get M80s. The M60s are very similar and are 8 Ohm. You have to ask yourself if the M80s really sound much better than the M60s and only you can decide that.

If you use a sub, M80's are a waste IMHO. Get smaller mains, buy a better receiver you like, and enjoy !

 

[foxnews]

If you use a sub, M80's are a waste IMHO. Get smaller mains, buy a better receiver you like, and enjoy !

in other words, if I don't have a sub, is M80 sufficent for Movie (mostly) and music?

 

[Gimpy Ric]

Movies are very, very sub dependent if anything blows up in the movie. I have Aperion Audio 633's with two 6.5" mid-bass/woofers and although they have great freq response, a 6.5" driver cannot move enough air to feel explosions, bass in pop music, deep classical music, etc. The M80's have two 6.5" woofers, barely enough cone to equal one 10" woofer. Not gonna get it in my book as far a bass is concerned.

I've been chasing bass since 1981 when I got into audio gear. Over the years, Subwoofer technology has grown by leaps and bounds, and now you don't see many floor standers with 12" woofers in them, and I believe subs are the reason.

I would buy either M50's or 60's (probably the 50's) and go sub shopping. The price difference between the M80's and M50's leave a nice $500.00 plus budget for a sub. The mids and highs from M50's along with a decent sub will rock your world. You'll be much happier in the long run I believe.

Just for reference I've owned a Hsu Research VTF-3 HO Turbo (top of the line), and sold it to buy my new baby, an SVS PB 13-Ultra. That will be the 5th. subwoofer I've ever owned. I'm a bass junkie, watch out, its addictive .

 

[foxnews]

Movies are very, very sub dependent if anything blows up in the movie. I have Aperion Audio 633's with two 6.5" mid-bass/woofers and although they have great freq response, a 6.5" driver cannot move enough air to feel explosions, bass in pop music, deep classical music, etc. The M80's have two 6.5" woofers, barely enough cone to equal one 10" woofer. Not gonna get it in my book as far a bass is concerned.

I've been chasing bass since 1981 when I got into audio gear. Over the years, Subwoofer technology has grown by leaps and bounds, and now you don't see many floor standers with 12" woofers in them, and I believe subs are the reason.

I would buy either M50's or 60's (probably the 50's) and go sub shopping. The price difference between the M80's and M50's leave a nice $500.00 plus budget for a sub. The mids and highs from M50's along with a decent sub will rock your world. You'll be much happier in the long run I believe.

Just for reference I've owned a Hsu Research VTF-3 HO Turbo (top of the line), and sold it to buy my new baby, an SVS PB 13-Ultra. That will be the 5th. subwoofer I've ever owned. I'm a bass junkie, watch out, its addictive .

I got SVS PB10-NSD 2 years ago. I like it and it is more than enough for me. I think Axiom look/quality is better than SVS, hence SVS is cheaper than Axiom sub.

Initially I think M60 is good enough but I don't want to regret later and decided to get M80.

I think you just succeeded convincing me to abandon M80. I will get M60 and a sub. Please tell me that I won't regret later . between PB12-NSD and PB10-NSD, is there any significant difference?

 

[foxnews]

Another reason that I decided to get M80 without a sub is because it looks better in the room without a sub. There is no way I can hide the sub.

I am not crazy for a subwoofer, I just want some good bass for movies.


1) M80 + no subwoofer
or
2) M60 + subwoofer

what is the percentage of impovement on movie experience between the two options above. if (2) is 10% better than (1), then I would still go for M80. but the difference is noticable, like more than 20%, then I would get sub.

 

[Gimpy Ric]

I got SVS PB10-NSD 2 years ago. I like it and it is more than enough for me. I think Axiom look/quality is better than SVS, hence SVS is cheaper than Axiom sub.

Initially I think M60 is good enough but I don't want to regret later and decided to get M80.

I think you just succeeded convincing me to abandon M80. I will get M60 and a sub. Please tell me that I won't regret later . between PB12-NSD and PB10-NSD, is there any significant difference?

You'll need to hit up some old SVS owners about those models. Here is an "ranking" if you will, of many popular subs, and prices.

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

Look at the ranking of the AV123 MFW-15 for $599.00 It seems to have the most boom for the buck.

On a side note, if you have the room, why not buy another identical sub? The 12" model does go down lower than the 10" you have, but it doesn't score that much higher by Craig and his crew. Hmmm.

Whether you go for 50's, 60's or 80's, in my house their would also be a very, very capable sub. But I'm a bass junkie as stated before .

 

[MDS]

based on the recommendation table at the end of the article, the question now is How do I know if Axiom m80 has "high efficency" or "low efficency"?

The M80s are definitely high sensitivity. From memory I think they are rated 93 dB/1W/1M which means they will produce a sound pressure level (spl) of 93 dB 1 meter from the speaker when fed 1 watt of power. That is how sensitivity is measured.

I don't think there is an agreed upon point where high sensitivity begins but any speaker with over 90 dB/1W/1M would be considered very sensitive.

A lot of bookshelves are in the 86 - 87 dB range and I'd consider that moderate sensitivity.

 

[Midcow2]

Remember Impedance is not just one number ..

quote from Onkyo "North American models do not support speakers
with an impedance of less than 6 ohms."

Impedance typically shown as the average resistve part at 4 ohm, 6 ohm, or 8 ohm is not one constant number but varies with frequency.

Just about any receiver with higher power ratings 90 rms per cannel and above can handle 4 ohms. Even lower power receivers can handle 4 ohms.

It is not your 2k$ speakers you need to worrry about it is overloading the AVR. But most AVRs have protective circuitry; however, I would recommend going close to the limit where it trips.

Okay now a very quick power lesson. Power is equal to current measured in Amperes multipled by voltage. If the power is purely resistive it is I*V= P Inductence and capacitance cause the voltage and current not to be in phase. current, I, is also equal to the voltage divided by the resistance (impedance if you consider capacitive and inductive phase shift). The formula becomes Power = V^2 / R lets assume you have an 8 ohm load and a power out put of 100 RMS 100=v^2 /8 You can see the same voltage level for a 4 ohm speaker would require twice the power! Lower ressitance by the same token also increases the current by a factor of 2.

Many AVRs have 6 ohm and 8 ohm settings but the settings don't do what you think they do and in almost all cases should be run at the higher 8 ohm setting. Many have an internal 2 ohm resistance bridge if you set it to 6 ohm so you in effect are only receiving 75% of the maimum power.

Receiver companys are in the business to protect their receivers and that is it. They do not care about speakers or speaker ohms. When someone says they don't support or don't recommend a 4 ohm or 6 ohm load they are only protecting the AVR from worst case load and are ultra conservative in thier statements. Unless you have very inefficient speakers (senstivitiy measurement low; higher is better) or low powered AVR you should be able to run 4 ohm speakers.

Good Luck and Power On

 

[foxnews]

OK, yous convinced me already. Now I have to spend more. the more I research, the more I spend . I downgrade from M80 to M60 and go with AV123 MFW-15. here is the whole set:

Axiom M60
Axiom QS8
Axiom VP150
AV123 MFW-15
Pioneer 1018

Total=$2357 (I buy from Axiom factory outlet since I am crazy about cosmetic perfection)

any objection to the above?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

A good sub that is big enough to handle the size of the room it's in would provide a 50% improvement in movies!

Another reason that I decided to get M80 without a sub is because it looks better in the room without a sub. There is no way I can hide the sub.

I am not crazy for a subwoofer, I just want some good bass for movies.


1) M80 + no subwoofer
or
2) M60 + subwoofer

what is the percentage of impovement on movie experience between the two options above. if (2) is 10% better than (1), then I would still go for M80. but the difference is noticable, like more than 20%, then I would get sub.

 

[foxnews]

A good sub that is big enough to handle the size of the room it's in would provide a 50% improvement in movies!

wow, 50%? that means subwoofer is the most important item in the home theater system. I used to underestimate subwoofer until now.

no wonder when I used Axiom wizard, they alway recommended systems with the most power and expensive subwoofer.

 

[the grunt]

OK, yous convinced me already. Now I have to spend more. the more I research, the more I spend . I downgrade from M80 to M60 and go with AV123 MFW-15. here is the whole set:

Axiom M60
Axiom QS8
Axiom VP150
AV123 MFW-15
Pioneer 1018

Total=$2357 (I buy from Axiom factory outlet since I am crazy about cosmetic perfection)

any objection to the above?

Here’s one idea to consider if you have the room…switch out the VP150 for one of Axiom’s bookshelf speakers. I think the M2 has the same tweeter and midrange as the M60. The M2 is $148 USD vs. $408 USD for the VP150, money you could use toward other equipment. It also goes lower though it doesn’t handle as much power as the VP150, but then you said you didn’t want anything insanely loud.

Nothing says a center speaker must be horizontal. that’s just a design compromise to make it fit above or below a display. So if you can fit a bookshelf center speaker consider it, otherwise the VP150 will work fine. You could always try both and send back the one you like the least.

To add more confusion…if you can fit a bookshelf speaker above or below your display consider using 3 identical bookshelf speakers across the front. This is considered ideal as it gives you the best possible match for creating a uniform soundstage across the front. If you make your own stands it will also save you even more money for other uses.

Just for full disclosure I went with towers as mains because I just prefer stereo coming from two speakers rather than two speakers and a subwoofer, but that’s a personal preference based on past practice. But for home theater I could have gone with bookshelf speakers as mains and center and a good subwoofer and been just as happy as with towers.

 

[fredk]

First off, you have my simpathy Fox. This is a lot of stuff to wade through to figure out whats best for you.

Some comments that I hope will help clarify some of the options for you. FWIW I had a chance to listen to various Axiom speakers in an A/B comparison enviroment.

On Subs:
I don't consider myself a sub person either and I am buying my system for music first. I was quite surprised at how much a sub adds to the sound track on a movie and even more surprised at how I liked what it added.

I was also surprised at what it added to music.

That said, I don't seem to like the same level of thump in movies that other people do. A smaller sub will keep me happy.

I see that you already have a sub that you say you like and is enough for you. If that is the case, why get another sub? You can always upgrade later.

On Power:
One factor not yet mentioned which is very important is dynamics and what you listen to. Music like classical and jazz tends to be better recorded and has a much higher dynamic range than rock/pop. I think you can easily add 10-15db to your dynamic headroom if you listen to Jazz/classical. That can translate to a need for a lot more power.

I didn't see anything on how big your room is. The size of room and how far you are from the speakers when you listen will also affect your power requirements.

If you search here on Crown and power calculator, you will find a link to a calculator that will give you some idea of how much power you will (or won't) need. I was quite surprised at how little power you need under most cirucmstances.

If you don't listen to jazz/classical, I think that the 663 will be a good receiver for a normal sized room and will have no trouble driving a speaker like the M80.

M60 vs. M80:
I had the pleasure of comparing these two with an a/b switch where I could instantly switch back and forth.

There is a definate difference between the two. The M80 delivers more detail across the entire frequency range Cymbals sound clean and detailed, bass has more texture (you can hear the string vibrate with each note) and the voices sound a little more real.

Now let me qualify my statements. I am an amateur musician and consider myself serious about sound reproduction. I know what live music should sound like and I want to get as close to that as I can.

If music is not as important to you the M60 is also a very fine speaker. There are lots of people who are very happy with the sound of the M60 and have no urge to upgrade.

Hope this helps a little.

Fred

 

[zumbo]

fredk, couldn't agree more.

 

[foxnews]

First off, you have my simpathy Fox. This is a lot of stuff to wade through to figure out whats best for you.

Some comments that I hope will help clarify some of the options for you. FWIW I had a chance to listen to various Axiom speakers in an A/B comparison enviroment.

On Subs:
I don't consider myself a sub person either and I am buying my system for music first. I was quite surprised at how much a sub adds to the sound track on a movie and even more surprised at how I liked what it added.

I was also surprised at what it added to music.

That said, I don't seem to like the same level of thump in movies that other people do. A smaller sub will keep me happy.

I see that you already have a sub that you say you like and is enough for you. If that is the case, why get another sub? You can always upgrade later.

On Power:
One factor not yet mentioned which is very important is dynamics and what you listen to. Music like classical and jazz tends to be better recorded and has a much higher dynamic range than rock/pop. I think you can easily add 10-15db to your dynamic headroom if you listen to Jazz/classical. That can translate to a need for a lot more power.

I didn't see anything on how big your room is. The size of room and how far you are from the speakers when you listen will also affect your power requirements.

If you search here on Crown and power calculator, you will find a link to a calculator that will give you some idea of how much power you will (or won't) need. I was quite surprised at how little power you need under most cirucmstances.

If you don't listen to jazz/classical, I think that the 663 will be a good receiver for a normal sized room and will have no trouble driving a speaker like the M80.

M60 vs. M80:
I had the pleasure of comparing these two with an a/b switch where I could instantly switch back and forth.

There is a definate difference between the two. The M80 delivers more detail across the entire frequency range Cymbals sound clean and detailed, bass has more texture (you can hear the string vibrate with each note) and the voices sound a little more real.

Now let me qualify my statements. I am an amateur musician and consider myself serious about sound reproduction. I know what live music should sound like and I want to get as close to that as I can.

If music is not as important to you the M60 is also a very fine speaker. There are lots of people who are very happy with the sound of the M60 and have no urge to upgrade.

Hope this helps a little.

Fred

I decided to get the coming Pioneer 1018 because of the 3 HDMI inputs, 1080P upconvert (not big deal since I got good TV), 130W/channel.

I thought I am done with M80 vs M60. now it seems you got a point which I originally had in mind. I don't want to get M60 and regret later with "I should have got M80". I just decided to get the AV123 MFW 15 which cost additional $800 (including shipping). Getting M80 is addtional cost, OUCH.

I watch movie 80% of the time and 20% music. by going from M60 to M80, how much percentage of experience improvement will I get?

I am just an average video/audio fan. Not too crazy about it. I just want a value system that will last me long. if the difference is 10%, then I can ignore and get the lesser to save. but if the difererece is more than 20%, like the subwoofer example from previous posts, then I would spend more.

My room is 18'x14'x9' (WxLxH). the reason I don't want to mention the room size is because I will get a bigger house in the future and the new room can be bigger.

 

[Gimpy Ric]

foxnews - The MFW-15, a pair of M 80's, and that Pioneer will make an awesome Home Theater. To keep the timbre of the speakers the same across the front will require an Axiom center channel. Around here, its a MUST to match the mains and center so that as the sound shifts from left to right the center does not sound "different". Hard to explain, just trust me on this one, ok .

For rears any brand will do, but you'll probably want Axiom as before you stated your a finish quality nut. For my setup, I chose the same brand as my mains and center because I wanted everything in Piano Black, my Samsung included

When its all said and done, ENJOY!

 

[foxnews]

foxnews - The MFW-15, a pair of M 80's, and that Pioneer will make an awesome Home Theater. To keep the timbre of the speakers the same across the front will require an Axiom center channel. Around here, its a MUST to match the mains and center so that as the sound shifts from left to right the center does not sound "different". Hard to explain, just trust me on this one, ok .

For rears any brand will do, but you'll probably want Axiom as before you stated your a finish quality nut. For my setup, I chose the same brand as my mains and center because I wanted everything in Piano Black, my Samsung included

When its all said and done, ENJOY!

so to match in the Master bed room:
front M80: 400w
Center VP150: 400w
AV123 15 Sub: 350w

what about surround? does it have to be QS8 to match 400w? or I can just go with QS4 with 200w?

I currently have three QS8 in the family room and hardly see significant benefit out of them. I got three and I hardly hear anything from the rear one. I guess most movies dont have rear sound.

 

[jcPanny]

Speaker SPL

what is the long term damage if I use receivers(without 4ohm support) to drive 4 ohm speakers (such as Axiom M80)? I will use average volumn, not too crazy loud.

Fox,
If you don't like it crazy loud and have a huge room, then there is no real advantage of the M80's over the easier to drive M60's.

Also note, I was driving my 4 ohm bookshelf speakers with my Yamaha HTR-5860 for a while without any problems before adding an amp. If you decide you want an amp for the mains, there are some inexpensive options like the Behringer A500 for >$200.