Running an amp and reciever question ...

[E.J.W.]

This is my first post on the forum, I know I've added another good source of info to my favorites.
I am in the middle of changing my system a bit. Currently I have an older Integra DTR 8.3 reciever, B&W 604 S3 front speakers with 600 series matching surronds, and a Infinity 500w powered sub.
I'd like to add a 2 channel amp for my fronts for listening to stereo music via Sirius and Pandora.
Will it cause a problem running the fronts through the amp (via the pre-amp outputs) and leaving the surrounds to being powered by the reciever's onboard amps when I watch a movie?
Thanks
E.

 

[Adam]

Welcome to the forum!

It won't hurt anything at all. That's exactly how I have my system set up. I do recommend that you recalibrate the speaker levels after connecting the amplifier, though.

 

[Swerd]

Will it cause a problem running the fronts through the amp (via the pre-amp outputs) and leaving the surrounds to being powered by the reciever's onboard amps when I watch a movie?

Welcome to the forum.

No that won't be a problem. Many people here, myself included, do something similar.

 

[E.J.W.]

Thanks for the input. I was hoping that would be the answer I'd get.
I am also looking into bi-wiring the 604's at the same time I add the amp.
Thanks again.
E.

 

[CraigV]

You could get an Emotiva XPA-5 5 channel amp, and use a “Y” splitter to two of the channels and use them to bi-amp your front speakers

 

[tcarcio]

That is the way it is done so go for it but the jury is out on the bi-wireing as alot of people don't think, including myself, that it has any sonic benefits.

 

[mtrycrafts]

This is my first post on the forum, I know I've added another good source of info to my favorites.
I am in the middle of changing my system a bit. Currently I have an older Integra DTR 8.3 reciever, B&W 604 S3 front speakers with 600 series matching surronds, and a Infinity 500w powered sub.
I'd like to add a 2 channel amp for my fronts for listening to stereo music via Sirius and Pandora.
Will it cause a problem running the fronts through the amp (via the pre-amp outputs) and leaving the surrounds to being powered by the reciever's onboard amps when I watch a movie?
Thanks
E.

Why are you considering an amp for them? The Integra is not performing well, distorts?

 

[Lordoftherings]

No problemo.

No sweat at all.

Just add a Stereo Power Amplifier like am Emotiva XPA-2, and you'll be on your way to the Holy Grail of Audio Nirvana with your B&W 604 S3 front loudspeakers.

And welcome to Audioholics forums.

Bob (LOTR)

 

[Seth=L]

Why are you considering an amp for them? The Integra is not performing well, distorts?

B&W speakers while often being rated 8 ohms nominal are generally fairly reactive loads. An external amplifier could do a lot of good on speakers such as his even at lower levels of output. My Niles amplifier is stable down to less than 3 ohms, making it almost perfect for driving any array of speakers without suffering clipping on the account of a fluctuating load.

 

[E.J.W.]

mtrycrafts,
I've already had one of the B&W 604's back for a tweeter replacement.
My local shop where I purchased both the receiver and speakers showed me where the tech comments from B&W warranty dept stated the tweeter was likely damaged due to distortion from being under powered while attempting a high sound level. Since that incident I set a max volume limit perameter so I don't get carried away and burn another speaker out. The rep at the shop said they only sell a few amps per year and all are bought by customers who are running big ticket seperates systems and did not think it would solve my problem. Upon talking to another shop during a business trip to Canada last month, and a e-mail to B&W customer service, they all totally agreed that the B&W's are power hungry and a 200w/ch-plus amp would make them happy.
Thanks
E.

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtrycrafts,
I've already had one of the B&W 604's back for a tweeter replacement.
My local shop where I purchased both the receiver and speakers showed me where the tech comments from B&W warranty dept stated the tweeter was likely damaged due to distortion from being under powered while attempting a high sound level. Since that incident I set a max volume limit perameter so I don't get carried away and burn another speaker out. The rep at the shop said they only sell a few amps per year and all are bought by customers who are running big ticket seperates systems and did not think it would solve my problem. Upon talking to another shop during a business trip to Canada last month, and a e-mail to B&W customer service, they all totally agreed that the B&W's are power hungry and a 200w/ch-plus amp would make them happy.
Thanks
E.

Just be careful about what really destroys that tweeter. Tweeters usually have very low power handling capability, period. Hence if you drive an amp into clipping, different levels of that, you are sending more power to the tweeter
http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au/downloads/rane/note128.pdf

and it burns up due to power. Why doesn't the low frequency driver fry as that is most likely what clips the amps? Because they can handle a lot more power.

http://sound.westhost.com/tweeters.htm

So, be careful with that high powered amp as well.

 

[PENG]

According to the manual, the DTR8.3 can do the following:

Continuous power output (DIN) 150 W at 6 Ω
Maximum power output (EIAJ) 180 W at 6 Ω
Dynamic power output (stereo) 2 × 280 W at 3 Ω
2 × 220 W at 4 Ω
2 × 140 W at 8 Ω
Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.08% at rated power
0.08% at 1 W output
IM Distortion: 0.08% at rated power
0.08% at 1 W output

So for Stereo listening you should have enough power to drive the 604S without clipping unless you have a large room and listen at very loud level. If you add a 2X300W amp you will not likely damage the tweeters with clipped signal but as mtrycrafts said you could still blow them with unclipped signals if you pushed hard enough because the 604 are only rated 25 to 200W.

 

[walter duque]

So for Stereo listening you should have enough power to drive the 604S without clipping unless you have a large room and listen at very loud level. If you add a 2X300W amp you will not likely damage the tweeters with clipped signal but as mtrycrafts said you could still blow them with unclipped signals if you pushed hard enough because the 604 are only rated 25 to 200W.[/QUOTE]


My center speaker is rated at 220 watts. I have it bi-amped with 350 wattsX2 I listend at very high volume, I mean I push these to the limit and never blown a tweeter. IMO 140 watts is not enough power to get the most out of any speaker.

 

[PENG]

My center speaker is rated at 220 watts. I have it bi-amped with 350 wattsX2 I listend at very high volume, I mean I push these to the limit and never blown a tweeter. IMO 140 watts is not enough power to get the most out of any speaker.

Hello Walter, I am sure you meant it when you said you push it hard, but if you take some measurements of current, voltage, or power, you will see that you did not push anywhere near 220W continuous into that speaker. In terms of peaks, I do believe you probably did push more than 350W into it at times, but not continuous, otherwise you would have melted your drivers if your center speaker is rated for only 220W.

 

[walter duque]

[

QUOTE=PENG;575690]Hello Walter, I am sure you meant it when you said you push it hard, but if you take some measurements of current, voltage, or power, you will see that you did not push anywhere near 220W continuous into that speaker. In terms of peaks, I do believe you probably did push more than 350W into it at times, but not continuous, otherwise you would have melted your drivers if your center speaker is rated for only 220W.

[/QUOTE]
You have a good point there. It is clean power and I think that's important.

 

[E.J.W.]

It's great to have some expert advice here.
I need to be educated a bit on the term "clipping".
mtrycrafts, Peng or Walter, can you explain what "clipping" is or what is happening when it's "clipping"? (I should of looked at the link mtrycrafts provided before i asked this question .. sorry)
I was going on the thought that my HT store rep was wrong as he was the only guy thinking an amp would not help, out of those I spoke to prior to posting here.
So I'm all ears for ideas if you think an amp will not run my B&W's more efficently than the Integra can on it's own.
I do like to run up the volume a bit when I'm home alone and working around the house. I just don't want to replace more parts of my 604's.
Walter, here are some stats on the room....
The family room where my system is placed is aprox 20ft long by 14ft deep with a 10ft high tray ceiling. Carpet is wall to wall along with a brick fireplace on one end and my piano at the other with the couch and two recliners in the room as well. The family room only has three walls as one of the 20ft sides is fully open to the kitchen which is 20ft by 20ft with an 8 ft ceiling.
The fronts are 10 ft apart and 10ft from the couch with the flat screen in the middle. They face the open wall towards the kitchen.
Also for what it's worth.. I do keep the Integra's tone controls rather flat. Maybe +1 or 2 on the bass for certain songs but -0- for the treble.
Thanks for everyone's help.
E.

 

[MatthewB.]

U acftually do something similar. My mains (DefTech BP7001s) are being run by my Onkyo 805 and my center and surrounds are being run by outboard amps. I did it this way because my outboard amps have slighlt less power than the Onkyo with only two channels being driven. The Onkyo with only two channels can drive up to 180 watts per channel because the amp doesnt have to push any other speakers. My center (CLR2002) is being run off a 200 watt monoblock amp) and my side surrounds (Stduio Monitor 450's) are being pushed by a 150 wpc stereo amp and my rear speakers (Mythos Gems) are bing pushed by a simple 600 wpc Adcom amp (they are less than two feet away and crossed over at 120Hz, so 60 watts is more than enough).

I crank my system to ear bleeding levels at times ()good action flick wil do that) and my system has never even come close to distorting or clipping.

You have to remmeber that the mian center is pushing 50% of the sound, the mains 40% and the surrounds the last 10% (I don't include a sub because they have their own internal amp) So as long as you are relieving the internal amp of having to drive other speakers it now has more power to drive what is hooked up.

 

[captiankirk28]

Hi, that is how i run mine also --- With my Emotiva XPA-3 hooked up to my front stage and my reciver handles the surrounds and it works wonderful, itt is amazing what alot of good clean power can do for you!!

 

[Lordoftherings]

Costly learning experiences!

Yeah, tell me about it!

Every time that I blow a tweeter in my front mains, it cost me just over $200 a pop.
And I blew three of them already!

These loudspeakers are recommended to be powered by amps between 50 and 350 watts RMS. They are rated to handle a maximum of 300 watts RMS on instantaneous peaks only, and no amplifier clipping.
And they are rated at a maximum of 150 watts RMS continuous with less than 10% amplifier clipping.
They are rated at 4 ohms impedance (but do drops below that at several frequencies of the audio spectrum).
And they are measured at 84.5db sensitivity.

Anyway, at $200+ a shot, it is very tough to digest, but that is the price I have to pay for that smoothness in the highs. Hard to keep things under control with blockbuster blu-rays and SACDs.

I never use an amp that can at least provides 225+ watts into 4 ohms.
But that's not enough, because when they usually clip at that power and above, that's when the damage is done. Most amps or receivers, when they clip, they usually do with a bang! And after that, no more sound coming from the tweeter, of course.

My 805 can produce just over 350 watts with two channels driven into 4 ohms at 1% THD, but not too sure what happens at 20khz?

I think that if I wanted to be safe, I would have to trade my speakers (which I don't) to newer ones with some type of diamond tweeter with a magnesium compound from a mixture of plutonium, neptunium and beryllium alloys, cooled by mercury and coated with titanium. That will probably give me so large a smile that it will crack open and tears my ears apart.
So, that's why I rather blow them before they blow me!

Anyway, life keeps singing as long as there are tweeter's replacements!
But I know that I'm on my short rope now! Supplies are getting very thin, and harder to find.

Bob

 

[PENG]

It's great to have some expert advice here.
I need to be educated a bit on the term "clipping".
mtrycrafts, Peng or Walter, can you explain what "clipping" is or what is happening when it's "clipping"? (I should of looked at the link mtrycrafts provided before i asked this question .. sorry)
I was going on the thought that my HT store rep was wrong as he was the only guy thinking an amp would not help, out of those I spoke to prior to posting here.
So I'm all ears for ideas if you think an amp will not run my B&W's more efficently than the Integra can on it's own.
I do like to run up the volume a bit when I'm home alone and working around the house. I just don't want to replace more parts of my 604's.
Walter, here are some stats on the room....
The family room where my system is placed is aprox 20ft long by 14ft deep with a 10ft high tray ceiling. Carpet is wall to wall along with a brick fireplace on one end and my piano at the other with the couch and two recliners in the room as well. The family room only has three walls as one of the 20ft sides is fully open to the kitchen which is 20ft by 20ft with an 8 ft ceiling.
The fronts are 10 ft apart and 10ft from the couch with the flat screen in the middle. They face the open wall towards the kitchen.
Also for what it's worth.. I do keep the Integra's tone controls rather flat. Maybe +1 or 2 on the bass for certain songs but -0- for the treble.
Thanks for everyone's help.
E.

Trying reading an article such as this: http://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au/downloads/rane/note128.pdf