B

biglaw22

Audioholic Intern
I'm using Autodesk inventor because its what I have available, not ideal by any means.

Funny that you bring up speaker placement, I've been thinking about it for the past few days. In wall/ceiling speakers are nice and clean, but they stay with the house if I sell. I'm going to try and figure out how to use regular speakers for the FL, C, FR, the surrounds and zone speakers can be in wall/ceiling as they are less critical. Whatever I end up doing I'll be running all of the low voltage wire before I drywall.

Another option I thought about was building a shelf to hold some 3 way book shelf speakers for the front. I haven't rendered it yet but they could go in the columns on the side of the TV.

It is hard to see the detail in the woodwork because the lightings wrong...
 
B

biglaw22

Audioholic Intern
The columns on the side are to break up the room because it is almost 40 feet long. It also helps make a nice transition from the arches by the pool table to the theater section.

I'll put lighting in the crown molding too.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
True, true. In-walls or in-ceiling speakers would be tough to take with you when you sell :p

You might want to consider on-wall speakers in a situation like yours. With almost all free-standing speakers, you'd want to have a decent distance from the back of the speaker to the wall in order to get the best sound quality. 2 or 3 feet is typical. And in your setup, space is at somewhat of a premium - at least in terms of not blocking any open walk ways or having a speaker awkwardly placed by one of the seats for the poker table or standing in front of your equipment rack ;)

So on-walls could be a nice middle ground. They're not built into the walls, so you can easily remove them and take them with you. But they're still flush on the wall and up and out of the way, lending a very clean look and increasing walkway and floor space.


If you want to get really slick, you should definitely check out Magenpan! I love me some Maggies :D In particular, check out their new, motorized MMC 2 wall speakers . Really cool. They go completely flat against the wall when you're not using them. Then, when you're ready to listen, they swivel out to about a 40 degree angle from the wall with an automated motor system. Always fun to show them off to visitors :D

Much more affordable though are the Magnepan MMGW speakers, which you get directly from Magnepan rather than through a dealer.

Just a cool idea if you're into them :) There's nothing quite like a planar speaker's sound. They love their power though, so you'd definitely want to budget for a nice, beefy amp to drive them ;)

If you're planning on building some integrated cabinetry, it'd be worth making some decisions on your speakers beforehand. If the plan is to one day sell this house though, I wouldn't go for anything too custom in terms of a built-in entertainment unit. Better to have a blank wall that people can do anything they want with, rather than limiting their options ;)
 
B

biglaw22

Audioholic Intern
I'm thinking of making a pocket in the columns for the front speakers to sit on. In this rendering I used NHT Classic 3C's for the L,R,C and zeros for the back and side surround. The Left/Right tweeters are at ear level or or maybe 6-12" above. I think I will still be able to angel them 20-30 degrees to the listening position.

The center would need to be angled up because it is mounted under the TV.

The side surounds are even or about 12" behind the listening position at 42-48" above ear level mounted on the wall/ceiling angled down to the listening position. Back surounds would be about 60" behind the listening position and the same 42-48" above ear level mounted to the ceiling.

I'll probably run wire for 4 subwoofer locations too. That way I can place it in the right spot without having to worry about cables.

 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
ooh, I'd want to avoid a recessed "pocket" in the columns, unless you're going to use "in cabinet" speakers that are specifically meant to be recessed like that. Otherwise, with regular free-standing speakers or on-wall speakers, you're going to get some pretty bad bass performance. Every boundary that is close to the speaker boosts the low frequency output due to reflections. In the strictest sense, it's distortion. But just in a general sense, it's what makes speakers sound "boomy" or "chesty" and unnatural sounding. It's the reason you typically want to get a free-standing speaker a good 2-3 feet away from the wall behind it. So with that current idea, you've basically "boxed in" your Front L/R speakers, which is going to wreak a bit of havok on their lower end performance, I'm sorry to say :eek:

You can counteract such placement a bit if you get a sealed speaker that also offers some adjustments for the output of the low frequencies. Such speakers are rather rare though. You'll find such designs in professional studio monitors mostly. One of the few consumer speakers with such a design and optional "tuning" are Emotiva's now-discontinued Reference series speakers. Emotiva is still selling them, though they are on "clearance" and cannot be returned now. Great prices though! Like the excellent ERM-6.3 L/C/R speaker for $399 each right now!

If you forego the "pocket" columns and just have "ledges" or "shelves" - basically the base of the columns without the columns on top :p - that would improve things. However, you'd still have the backs of the speakers very close to the back wall and the center speaker basically mounted to the wall below the TV.

So, once again, same issues. You'd want a sealed speaker with boundary compensation options built-in. Personally, with that sort of placement, I go back to the idea of on-wall speakers, which I really think are the better solution in a case like this. I get the sense though that you're thinking about the future and maybe wanting speakers that don't HAVE to go mounted on the wall if your future house would work better with standard free-standing speakers. Regardless, this is something that's worthy of some more thought and discussion :)

For the surround speakers, your idea for wall-ceiling edge placement is fine. Just, once again, you'll want to favor sealed speakers rather than ported speakers for such a placement.

Overall, so long as their output capabilities are sufficient, I prefer sealed speakers anyway. They work better with the cross-over setups in virtually all modern receivers. Ported speakers actually play too low and then slope off too quickly to work well with the modern cross-over scheme. The built-in cross-over slopes are all based on the THX cross-over design, which calls for speakers that only play flat down to 80Hz and then start to roll off with a shallow 12 dB/octave slope. With most speakers - especially ported speakers - they are designed to play lower and slope off much more steeply at that lower roll off point. There are ways to work around that. But using sealed speakers just makes it all easier :)

What we'll really need is an idea of the budget for the speakers. That'll help narrow down the choice considerably. Nix those "pocket" columns though. They aren't good news for anybody ;)
 
B

biglaw22

Audioholic Intern
Ok, I'll nix the pockets in the the columns. I might also need to switch to in ceiling speakers for the back surround depending on how low the on ceiling speakers come down.

I think the speaker budget will be around $2000 for 7 channels not including the sub.

Any suggestions for on wall speakers?
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Been looking around.

For some reason, full-size on-wall speakers seem to have gone out of style with most manufacturers. There are plenty of in-wall options, but most of the on-walls seem to be very skinny "flat panel" "lifestyle" speakers with poor frequency response and a "looks over performance" sort of design. I guess that's what the market wants :rolleyes:

One good option in your price range remains, and that's Axiom Audio . Now, Axiom's come under a lot of fire in the past year. Personally, I think it's unwarranted. When they first started becoming popular, Axiom's speakers got hyped to the moon. Largely in part to positively glowing professional reviews - including several from Audioholics - where Axiom's speakers were routinely compared favorably to much more expensive speakers. Everyone was all hyped about them. Then reality set in a little bit.

Turns out, not every Axiom speaker was a total masterpiece :rolleyes: They made use of some unusual designs - we're talking about the use of two, stacked tweeters in their "flagship" tower speakers and center speaker. These speakers did not measure very well because, as you might expect, the interference created by the dual drivers showed up as some pretty awful looking frequency response charts on those particular models .

Then Axiom did a stupid thing and basically claimed that their speakers were as good as a speaker could possibly ever be. They said that the best any other speaker could be was "similarly good" to their speakers. That pretty much started up a fire storm on the message boards :rolleyes:

Then we got into the whole "double blind testing" debate. Axiom has always trumpeted "scientific research" and "blind testing" as a part of their design process. They participated in the famous NRC research into speaker design up in Canada and they built their own anechoic chamber. However, they drew some slightly different conclusions to other NRC-based speaker companies. Namely, they dismissed pretty much all of the concerns about "comb-filtering". Comb-filtering is a measurement that only shows up when you use a single microphone. Pretty much all measurements are made that way, and it looks ugly as hell, so it's generally thought of as a bad thing. And, indeed, you can easily hear a speaker that produces comb-filtering by simply moving your head side-to-side laterally while you are listening. But if you hold your head still, our brain does a marvelous job of using our two ears to eliminate comb-filtering from our perception. Axiom took this and ran with it and basically ignored comb-filtering as a problem. But it makes such an ugly graph! Cue the forum hate :rolleyes:

Then things really got ugly when Axiom refused to participate in Audioholics' subwoofer shootout. Axiom's subs are not great. I suspect they know that. And I suspect they didn't want their subs exposed. So they declined to participate. But they said it was because Audioholics' testing wasn't good enough and that the ONLY way to properly test a sub is their way, which is a 90 foot suspension in open air to essentially create an anechoic setting, not a ground plane measurement, which is industry accepted for testing subs.

Things got so heated that Axiom pulled their advertising from Audioholics. And then, all of a sudden, Axiom's speakers were miraculously "overpriced", "cheaply built", "cutting corners" and "poorly engineered". Yes, the very same speakers that were so highly praised just a couple of years before were now suddenly the devil. I guess everyone's hearing really "matured" in that short amount of time :rolleyes: The same speakers that were vaunted for being a terrific value for providing sound that was right up there with more expensive speakers suddenly came under fire for not having changed enough, for Axiom being "lazy" in reusing the same basic design for years (like any other speaker company was any better in that regard), and that they were "cutting corners" by using less expensive parts to make their *gasp* less expensive speakers! I mean...the nerve! :rolleyes:

So this is where I throw out ALL of the nonsense and go back to the only thing that I REALLY trust, which is my own listening experiences! In my experience, most of Axiom's speakers sound good. Their M50 and M60 towers sound excellent. So do the oddly designed M80s if you're in the right sort of setting, which is rather far away and in a large room with a ton of power feeding them.

All of their bookshelf speakers sound good. Their QS surrounds are amazing! Their centers and subwoofers? I've never been a fan. Their EP500 sub is easily their best and sounds great so long as you keep the output to 95dB or below. But it's expensive, so it's an underachiever against the competition.

The bottom line is that most of the "Axiom hate" is coming from people who have never heard their speakers and are simply looking at the "ugly" graphs produced by one or two specific models. But you know the internet - if one thing you make is bad, then EVERYTHING you make is bad, right? :rolleyes:

So my point is, I still recommend Axiom. And their on-wall M2, M3 and M22 speakers sound good and are a nice design for a situation like yours. The center speakers are a bit harder to recommend. Frankly, you could just run your system with a "phantom center" and allow the Front L/R M22 speakers to handle everything up front. They image very well and absolutely create the illusion of a physical center speaker. I'm a fan of using a "phantom" center when a physical center speaker doesn't create a PERFECT sonic match.

It sucks to have to "defend" Axiom. Axiom is stupid for saying no one can make a better speaker. All the haters are stupid for piling on a bandwagon that's claiming that speakers that sounded and measured well just a couple of years ago are suddenly "crap". I mean, I've seen Axiom routinely compared to Bose, which is just utterly ridiculous.

Anywho, Axiom's on-wall, in-wall, and in/on-wall hybrid speakers remain a very good option in my book! I'll try to come up with some other good options though :)
 
B

biglaw22

Audioholic Intern
Yeah, I sent an email to Axiom just the other day with a few questions. They got back to me right away and answered my questions.

The plan I came up with was M22 in/on wall VP150 in/on wall center, QS8 for the side surround and something else for the back not sure how to get it pointed to the listening position. I'll have my horn loaded 15" sub built by then so no problems there.

Can you elaborate on why the center channel is not up to the levels of the bookshelf speakers.
 
Last edited:
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Axiom's got a handy ceiling bracket that you could use to hang a pair of M2 bookshelf speakers for the surround back channels. That'd be the way I'd probably go in your situation.

I'm not 100% on whether the QS8 surrounds would be the best choice in your particular setup. Just to be clear, I really love the QS8 surrounds, but they do need to be in the right sort of placement, which is basically an enclosed, rectangular room. With the way they fire in all directions, you'd get some rather weird bounces and reflections. You've got the somewhat lower 7 foot-ish ceiling, the large distance to the back wall, the opening on one side to the bar, and those planned columns on the side walls to delineate the theater and pool table areas. Basically, it just isn't an ideal room for the QS8's IMO. They'll certainly throw their sound in all directions and be really diffuse in there. But I worry a little bit about getting the system as a whole balanced when you'd be dealing with so many unpredictable reflections and no direct sound at all from your surround speakers. So - just my take - I'd go with M2 bookshelf speakers for all four surround and surround back speakers. You can just use the wall or ceiling mounts that Axiom offers to angle them towards the general seating area from where ever they are mounted in the room :)

The M22 on-wall or maybe on-wall/in-wall hybrid speakers would be a "lock" for the Front L/R Main speakers in my book. They're really nice and will work brilliantly with a sub.

As for the center speakers, my issue has been that I've never been able to get a seemless blend with any of Axiom's centers. One issue is that they don't produce much mid-bass. They roll-off a fair bit higher than the bookshelf speakers (let alone the towers), and it makes for a bit of a challenge when setting them to cross-over with the sub or the main speakers. The designs also have genuine issues in terms of the polar response. If you're sitting still and dead center ahead, then they're ok. But if you move side-to-side or if you're off-axis, the sound definitely changes audibly. It's just - they're not as good as the bookshelf speakers. It's really about that simple. And since Axiom's bookshelf speakers are all very good to my ear, I find it fairly easy to tell when a sound pans across the front and the sound changes as it goes through the center. That bugs me, so I haven't been able to really get behind Axioim's centers. The huge VP180 is pretty awesome. Just by its sheer size, it's able to handle a wider seating area. But it's impractical for almost everyone - just its sheer size and weight. And much like the M80 towers that it is obviously meant to match, it measures weird and only sounds "right" in a large room, from far away, with TONS or amplifier power feeding it. Not a viable choice in your situation :p

I've high hopes for the new VP160 center that's coming out. But it's rather large too, so I've little hope for an on-wall version. It'll likely have a "cabinet" version like the VP180. Axiom's FINALLY doing a tweeter above mid-range driver arrangement though with two bass woofers on either side. That should finally give them a center that measures well!

One thing you COULD do is wait for the VP160 and just have it on a platform or a low shelf below your TV. I'm pretty sure Axiom was taking pre-orders for their forum and e-mail list memebers already, so it should be available really shortly. I'm sure you could ask them about it via e-mail or over the phone. In another "about time" advancement for Axiom, the VP160 is also front ported, so you can place its back closer to a wall without the problems of placing a rear ported speaker.

If you'd be ok with the look of a regular "box" center speaker with on-wall main speakers, I have to say, that's the way I would go. The VP160 center and M22 on-wall speakers. Then M2 bookshelf speakers for all 4 surrounds with wall or ceiling mount brackets for "aiming".

You COULD go with a little M2 on-wall below the TV as your center, but I'd be a little worried about its output capabilities for such an important speaker that carries all the dialogue. You can also do a "flanked" center speaker, which is to put an M22 speaker directly on either side of the TV and simply split the center channel output to both of those speakers to run them in mono. It's an unusual setup that you don't see very often, but it actually works really well! Then you'd have your Main L/R M22 on-walls further to each side in addition to the mono pair of M22s that are acting as your center.

So I hope that gives you some insight. I've always had very pleasant experiences when talking with the Axiom folks. The only problem is that they really do seem to believe that their speakers can't really get any better, so they aren't so receptive to things like my criticism of their center speakers and subwoofers :p They're never jerks about it or anything like that. It's just that they won't ever say there's even a potential issue. My listening and the measurements from others say different :p
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Just a quick note on the TV for the theater.

In your drawing there, you've got about an 11' distance from the TV wall to the back of the seats. If you get your eyes in that 10' - 11' distance from the TV once the TV is mounted on the wall, you'd be in the PERFECT distance for one of the very nice Sharp 70" LCDs! The LC-70LE734U (2D only version) or LC-70LE735U (3D version) would absolutely be my top choice for that distance and this room! You're going to probably have some lights on a lot of the times when you're watching in this room. As much as a LOVE a good plasma (like the Panasonic VT30 plasmas, which remain the best displays available today), they do still have the "issue" where those lovely, deep, inky blacks start to look grey as soon as you have the lights on :( I always find, they look superb so long as the light is "dim" - by which I mean just barely enough light to read a newspaper. Any brighter, and the blacks start to look grey-ish and the white starts to look a bit dull. Plasmas just aren't meant for a lit room!

But the Sharp 700 series 70" displays - they are PERFECT for a lit room. Sharp FINALLY went back to a matte screen finish, rather than the glossy, mirror-like finish that ALL other current LCDs use! Hooray! :D

You take that matte screen, the nice, BRIGHT output capabilities, the nice, even illumination of the screen thanks to the full-array LED backlighting, the good color, the very good user adjustment options AND the pretty darn deep black levels that STAY black with the lights on, and there's pretty much nothing to complain about! They're great LCD sets! And at 70", they're also the PERFECT size for your seating distance! Not too bad on price either - especially when you consider the 70" size!

Man. You're a lucky guy. This is really going to be some nice gear in that room of yours :D
 
Last edited:
B

biglaw22

Audioholic Intern
Yeah if you look at those renderings. I used a the 70" sharp for the TV. I have a friend thats a dealer so I'll have him order one when the time comes.

This room is probably about 2 years from completion because I'm going to do the work when I have time and money. It would happen sooner but I'm also residing the house.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Oh wow. I didn't know the completed room was that far out. lol

If the gear isn't going in until the full basement is completed, then things will certainly change before then!
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top