Room Setup

[biglaw22]

Hi guys,

I'm in the planing stages of finishing the basement in my home. I've always wanted a theater, but I know I can't swing a dedicated one... Here is quick layout I put together.

The theater room is under the master bedroom, I'm not sure if this will be a problem with sound.

I'm trying to figure out the room layout and speaker placement. Right now the plan is for a leather sectional for everyday use. I'm not sure how the open wall is going affect sound reflections, ect. I'm also not sure if the area is large enough to warrant a 7.1 setup.

I think the surround speakers will have to mount to the ceiling/soffit and point to the listening area.

Please hit me with suggestions and comments for things I have overlooked.

 

[biglaw22]

Does anybody have any thoughts on room location? Remember this is the basement and the only things set in stone (concrete) are the exterior walls, posts, and utility room.

Also note that there is only one large potential window that I would like to install to make it not feel like a basement it would be about 5 feet wide on the 13 foot length of the great room by the card table.

 

[BMXTRIX]

It is nice to have an open unfinished basement to work with and it is worth just having the open basement design to knock about a bunch of different layouts in before you commit to anything solid.

Of course, it really depends on what you are after.

The first things that jump out at me that I ask about...

1. Are you set on a TV or have you considered a front projection setup?

2. The TV location makes it so that it can't be seen by anyone else in the basement. At the very least I would flip the room so that the TV is viewable off axis when others are in the basement.

3. I (personally) would not put it in that confined space, but would more likely move it to be next to the card table and put the card table in the smaller room with a small TV in what is currently the theater.

4. I would strongly consider a front projection setup, and far more lighting than what is shown. In a room of that size about 6-9 lights make a lot of sense, and building it out with dark paint, dark carpet, and dark colors will make it far more suitable.

5. I would probably go with several TVs in the large space if it was important to have televisions in the space and everyone with a view of the TV. Kind of like a sports restaurant, you see televisions everywhere. So, a few cheaper 42" plasmas on the walls for everyone to get a good view, then the primary front projection where everyone can see.

6. I think people go out of their way to 'brighten' basements unneccessarily. You can create a cozy environment, and then offset it with LOTS of can lights to brighten the space. A light every 5 feet or so is perfectly reasonable. You have this huge chance right now to put the lights on many different zones and to add dimmers, so don't blow it! The WAF demands a 'bright' room in every spot in the house, but a darker space can be a nice break and a more comfortable environment for relaxation.

7. Wow! That utility closet location stinks. It's a shame they picked the middle of a primary wall to locate it.

8. I wouldn't worry much about 7.1 vs. 5.1, I would worry about getting audio and video to other areas of the basement so that everyone can hear things when they are playing. This is the ONE real chance to wire the basement up properly. Also, it is your last real chance to get wiring up to the main floor of your home if you need to.

 

[FirstReflection]

Hi there!

Transplanting myself over from your thread on the General A/V board

So, just to be clear, do you already have your drywall up, your soffit up and that fireplace installed? Or is that merely a preliminary plan at this point?

You said that nothing is set in stone in this basement, so I'm guessing you're willing to renovate the theater room, even if the drywall is already up. That's a good thing!

You've got some challenges here, that's for sure. And the biggest one might actually be your ceiling height, but we'll get to that a bit later.

Nothing wrong at all with a 12'-ish x 16'-ish theater, so long as what you're after is a "cozy" theater that is perfect for two people and good for three people on occasion. If you want to regularly seat more than three people in there though, you're almost certainly going to want a larger room, which would require you to use part of the area that you've marked as your "great room".

I'm looking at this a little differently than BMX. I'm seeing your theater as an entirely separate room. If the fireplace is not yet installed, you have the option to make it a completely sealed and dedicated room. It's entirely possible to put up a pony wall right under that existing header and incorporating the existing support beam in order to wall off the theater room and make it entirely self-contained and dedicated! Of course, if you do that, you have to have a ventilation/heating/air conditioning run in there. And you'll have to check with local building codes. Some areas require that any walled off room in the basement (and this would apply to that bedroom and work room as well) have its own fire escape - typically in the form of a window that is large enough to crawl through. Some areas only require that window if the basement is being designated as its own suite. But check with your local city hall before you do all of your planning. You're going to have to comply with code in order to pull your permits.

I'm no fan of vapor barrier in the basement. Far too easy to get moisture problems. I'm a much bigger fan of using rigid foam or better yet, spray foam. Spray foam really is the best because you get perfect contact with the outer foundation wall and no need for vapor barrier! Might cost a wee bit more to bring in the spray foam guys, but it pays for itself in the end

For your wall structure, just be sure to use properly treated wood or use steel. Again, not really the biggest fan of steel construction in the basement. I'd rather go with BlueWood or an exterior grade wood. Be absolutely sure to have your sill gasket under all your footers, in between the bottom plate and the concrete foundation floor!

How's your weeping situation down there? Do you have good internal weeping all around the perimeter of your foundation? If you've got good weeping, you can put rigid foam on the floor with a 2" gap all around the perimeter that you fill in with spray foam. Combined with the spray foam on the outer walls, you basically make your basement into a "cooler" that you can heat with a candle and cool with an open mini fridge!

Now to that ceiling. You've got a typical basement ceiling that is lower in height and some sections where it is "doorway height" only (6'9") already. The easiest way for you to soundproof between the basement ceiling and the floor above is going to be to use QuietRock rather than traditional drywall. You can hang QuietRock exactly like regular drywall, so you lose nothing in the way of height. You might want to go with the thickest QuietRock for maximum soundproofing, which would lower your ceiling height a little as it's 1 3/8" thick. But the other QuietRock types are mostly 5/8" thick, so no real loss of height with those at all.

The other way to soundproof your ceiling is with a "sound clip" or channel system. I particularly like the Genie Clip system as it's easier to install and much harder to screw up and "short circuit"! The Genie Clip system will lower your ceiling height though. If you're ok with a 7' ceiling, it's fine though.

You'd want to avoid pot lights in the theater ceiling though. Putting holes in your ceiling construction is a sure fire way to let lots of sound through. As an alternative, I'd look into putting your lighting for the theater room into the soffit that goes all the way around. You could install can lights that will light the perimeter of your theater, and then have LED lights that shoot across the ceiling from the soffit-to-ceiling edge for a cool lighting effect!

You're going to need access to that water meter, so be sure you're up to code on that.

So you'll have a BlueWood frame, sitting on sill gasket with a minimum 1" air gap between the wood and the concrete foundation wall. Spray foam the outer wall, completely filling the gap between concrete and BlueWood for perfect insulation. Hopefully be able to rigid foam the floor with a 2" gap all around that you fill with spray foam. Tuck Tape every seam in the rigid foam. Lay your plywood subfloor. Install QuietRock or use the Genie Clip system on the ceiling. Install the drywall on your walls - I'd use 5/8". Leave a small gap at the wall-to-ceiling and wall-to-floor edges that you'll fill with high quality acoustic caulk. Lay your flooring. And you've now created a room that is isolated from the foundation completely.

If your ventilation and fire safety are up to code, you can put up a standard interior wall to separate the theater from the "great room" and get a truly dedicated theater. If you can't put up that pony wall, then your only real concern is going to be your bass performance. A subwoofer doesn't "know" where your theater space ends and your "great room" begins. It's just going to try and pressurize that entire space - and that's a very big room to fill at that point!

Right now, I think you've got some decisions to make before it's worth going a lot further. Is this a separate theater space? Or do you want the display visible to the great room as well as BMX has suggested?

The gear we can make fit to suit your space, but you've gotta decide what you're after with this theater. BMX is thinking more along the lines of a bar-type atmosphere for entertaining. I'm thinking more alont the lines of a separate, dedicated space for the theater only with the great room serving as your entertaining space. So we've gotta start with that basic idea first and then we'll work from there!

 

[biglaw22]

Hi guys, thanks for the great ideas.

This is a man cave (technically the whole house is) and the main question is: Do I build a dedicated theater or not?

After reading FirstReflections post I came to this conclusion: I want a dedicated theater and I know this basement can't provide what I would truly want, I'd have to make too many comprimises. I don't do things half *** so putting in a dedicated theater in this house is out of the question. Maybe the next house if I have a family or something. (I'm 25)

This puts me more in line with what BMXTRIX posted.

Lets scrap the first layout and start fresh...

I'll be doing most of the work myself, which is why I can even afford to do this in the first place. I'm not new construction or remodeling and I already own all of the necessary tools. I can pull wire like the best of them, and state code lets me!

So here is the list of wants as nothing is a need, no particular order.

1. area for movies, I probably watch 1 or 2 movies a week, more if I have the time.
2. good seating area for entertaining watching the game.
3. wet bar, this is Wisconsin and we drink...
4. pool table
5. card table
6. workroom
7. extra room/bedroom, let me worry about egress laws
8. gas fireplace, because I like fire and girls get cold
9. multi zone sound, 2 zones?
10. Bathroom (1/2 bath or 3/4)

 

[biglaw22]

Pictures of the basement as is. I'll make a blank layout so anyone can help me out if they want.

As you come down the stairs

From the back corner (fyi this is a wide angel these walls are 90 degrees), I replaced the water heater and haven't got rid of the old one yet... no those cabinets are not fixed, nor will I use them.

From the other back corner (leg of the "L")

 

[FirstReflection]

Cool! Those pics help a lot!

You really do have a blank slate there, so I've thought about this and here's what I've come up with:

I'd leave the bedroom, utility room, bathroom, workroom and storage as you've shown them in your overhead-view plan. Now, I'm guessing that you planned the wetbar so that you'd have the easiest plumbing job with the utility room and bathroom in the closest vicinity. So what I'm about to propose would likely include considerably more work, but this is just an idea so I'll throw it out there

Take what is now the theater space in your plan and turn it into the bar and poker table area. I'd put the bar on the left-most outer wall so that it is partially visible as you come down the stairs. I'm not sure if that center jack post support would interfere with the space for the poker table, but it looks like it should be manageable.

In the great room space, between what would now be the bar/poker table and the bedroom, I would put the billiards table. So now, that entire left side of the basement is the bar, poker table and pool table, giving you a real "bar" area.

Given that you want a fireplace, the only decent spot in what I'm proposing would be straddling the corner of the bedroom and the left-most outer wall. Visually, that would look nice when you come down the stairs and look to the far end of the room. From the landing of the stairs, at the far end of the room, you'd see the pool table, part of the bar on the right and the fireplace straddling the corner to the left.

Now, I noted that you don't have any plans for a laundry room or washer and dryer. I would change that. I would put the washer and dryer where you currently have the wetbar. It's always best to get the washer and dryer off of the main or second floor and put it in the basement. While I've made your drain and sink hookup a lot longer and potentially more difficult by putting the bar way over in the currently drawn up "theater" room, the job of putting in the washer and dryer connections should be fairly easy by putting them where the wetbar currently is planned. You can cover them with louvered pocket doors so that you don't have to see them.

So now the theater area would be the other half of the great room. It would be the first thing in front of you as you come down the stairs. Looking at the room from the landing at the bottom of the stairs, the only thing that would make sense with the washer and dryer now on the left behind louvered doors would be to put the TV on the wall that would be on your right (it would be the "top" wall in the overhead view) and the seats in front of the louvered doors to the washer/dryer and the door to the workroom.

For the seating, you would want something fairly simple and straight. I wouldn't go with a sectional, but perhaps a nice 4 seat home theater recliner setup with a loveseat in the middle, two wedges on either side and two recliners on the outer seats, similar to this:



In order to preserve a clean look and to create enough walking space, I'd go with in-wall or on-wall speakers for the front soundstage. You'll need an extremely capable subwoofer to pressurize this large space. Thankfully, it looks like you'd have ample space for a subwoofer in the corner that would be immediately to your right if you were looking into the room from the landing at the bottom of the stairs (the "top right" corner in the overhead view). I'd go for an SVSound Ultra box or cylinder if you can afford one, or maybe a big 18 incher from Elemental Designs or Seaton. I personally really like RBH Sound for in-walls, but we'll talk gear later Surrounds could be handled with in-ceiling speakers on either side and slightly behind the seating. I'd certainly only go 5.1 in this setup.

You'd definitely want audio and probably a second video setup - possibly two more displays - for the bar/poker/pool table area. In the overhead view, with the bar in the "top left" corner and the poker table to the right of that, I'd probably put a 50" plasma on the wall to the right of the poker table (which is where you've got the TV in the current "theater" plan that you've shown). Again, you could use in-wall or on-wall speakers for that TV and maybe some in-ceiling speakers if you just want audio for the bar.

You might also want a plasma screen on the left-most wall (it would be to the right of the corner-straddling fireplace and on the farthest wall behind the pool table if you're looking from the landing), again with its own in-wall or on-wall speakers. That way, people sitting on the right hand side of the poker table, who would have the TV behind them in the bar/poker area, would now have a view of a TV over the pool table.

For the ceiling, I'd highly recommend using Genie Clips for the entire basement. You're going to need runners on the ceiling anyway, so why not use something that will give you good soundproofing rather than just 2x2's ? Genie Clips make it really easy to perfectly level your ceiling too, so there's good value there

So that's what I've come up with! Hopefully I've explained it well enough for it to be easy to understand.

 

[FirstReflection]

One more idea,

something that looks really cool that I've seen is to put a wrought iron gate as the entrance from the landing to the room. It's see through with the iron bars, but it gives you a true, dramatic entrance to the basement, rather than just a plain opening or a door. Just a cool "extra" to consider

 

[biglaw22]

Wow, FirstReflections... I like that idea, but I think you just tripled the cost to finish the basement. Your layout is giving me a few new ideas though.

I'm not going to move the washer and dryer off of the main floor, not worth the cost and as far as home value goes its not desirable around here. Its not in too bad of a spot now. It actually sits on top of that long storage room.

 

[FirstReflection]

Heh. You mean I somehow found it easier to spend someone else's money? Now how could that have happened?

The washer & dryer are no big deal. It's just something that popped into my head because where I am up in Canada, we pretty much always try to keep the laundry on the lowest floor By not having the laundry where I suggested, you could use that space to have a larger bathroom or to add another closet area or something. Heck, you could use it for all of your audio/video gear that you'll need in order to use the theater and run the second and third TVs and audio. I'm not sure where your cable and telephone wires come into the house, but you could potentially use that space for some whole home networking or a computer server that could run home automation and security/surveillance. Turn your basement into a full on Batcave

I only own an apartment at the moment, so I haven't gotten into home automation in my own place yet. But when I buy a full, detached house, I certainly plan to go the home automation route! Already, just having a NAS setup in my apartment is a life changer. Being able to access any and all of my files, including over 400 Blu-ray and HD DVD movies in any room is something I'd never want to give up now that I'm used to it

So yeah, why not spend even more money and get into home automation with your own home server and NAS while you're at it, eh?

I'm glad you found my earlier ideas potentially helpful though. Just visually, I think it would work really well and make the space seem larger while providing a sense of delineation between "the bar" and "the theater".

I look forward to seeing more of your plans!

 

[biglaw22]

Here is a new layout which cuts the cost a bunch.

I tossed out the fireplace to make space and save some green. After readdressing the existing plumbing I have moved the bathroom. This means I have to relocate the water heater, not too much of a problem. Much better than ripping up concrete for a drain system. I also wanted an audio cabinet with access to the back. No more blind stabbing untill I get the right port.

Having a larger workroom for projects is great, I'll be able to build all of my speakers if I want to.

I'll drop zone 2 into the bar so I can feed 2 different games at the same time if needed. TV number 2 will be on the bottom wall by the card table. (same wall as the toilet)

I'll probably have about 15-20 can lights in the greatroom section, might do crown molding with led lighting in the theater section. The pool table section will probably get some wall lights too.

 

[FirstReflection]

Hey now!

That's looking pretty good! Makes perfect sense to move the bar area to that side in order to make the plumbing job a shorter span. I was leaving the bedroom in that spot before because that's the only side with a window and I was thinking about the egress laws. So long as you're not trying to build a "legal suite" in the basement though, I think you're ok without a fire escape. Still be good to check with your local authorities though. Maybe just call the "bedroom" a "storage" room and that might be enough to get around any legal issue

Having the "theater" over on that side of the great room also cuts down on your "need" for a 3rd TV and audio zone. Again, you're gonna want an absolutely kick *** sub for that size of room. But it's certainly doable.

My only possible qualm is how the theater's seating is going to fit. You've got a wall on what would be the right hand side of the seating now. Purely for your surround effect, but also just for looks and feel, it's nicer to have a gap between the side of the seats and the wall. With only a 13 foot width, you might have to make do with a 3 seater rather than a 4 - although you've got an open side on the left hand side of the seating that opens to the bar now. Minro quibble really. You'll just need to find the right sort of seating to make the best of the layout

With as much space behind the back of the seats as there is now, you might want to go with a 7.1 speaker setup for the theater area now. The great news is that most modern receivers let you run the surround back speakers as a powered 2nd zone if you wish. That would allow you to have the surround back speakers for the theater play double duty as speakers for the pool table area. All you'd have to do is go into your receiver's menu and set the surround back channels to 2nd zone instead and you could then play different music over the pool table and still have 5.1 running in theater! Then, if it's a dedicated movie night, just go into the menu and flip the setting to 7.1 and you can enjoy a more complete surround effect with speakers that are genuienly behind your seats and a good 5-7 feet back

I'm not totally sure about the utility and washroom layout. It looks as though you've got your electronics cabinet very close to your hot water heater now, which I'm not sure is the best idea. I always like to try and keep water and electricity as far away from each other as possible Running wires is cheap and easy, so I wouldn't concern myself with keeping the electronics cabinet physically close to the theater and bar.

I think the general layout concept is really good now though. I'm not a huge fireplace fan myself, but I know you wanted one (perhaps mostly for the ladies ). It's certainly a lot easier without the fireplace though. You could probably still fit a small corner fireplace in the upper right corner by the pool table and entrance if you really want one. Maybe just go with an electric fireplace in a spot like that. Nothing that would require any sort of venting. There are some pretty nice looking electric fireplaces these days, so it's not so bad vs. gas or wood burning anymore.

Cool, cool, cool

 

[biglaw22]

I'll be building a horn loaded sub that uses a 15" driver. It should fill the room nicely. I don't think it will need to be corner loaded either.

As for the seating i just drew in a large sofa. I'll probably look into different configurations. i.e. 3+1, 2+2, 2+1+1 or if I can only fit 3 I would go with a sofa or a 2+1 setup.

The audio cabinet is in the corner by the bedroom/home office. This room does have a window although it is not large enough for egress so I need to look into how much work it will take to make room for a larger window... I love concrete saws.

I can't remember how my RX-A1000 does the zone2/7.1 as its only hooked up in 5.1 now. I know it has all 9 speaker inputs, but I think it only has 7 channels of power at any time. I wonder how that works if I set it up with the preamp outs for zone 2. Or I can always upgrade latter.

I've also been thinking about breaking the room up a little with some short walls and a header going into the theater area of the room. Thats what those 1'x1' cubes are on the walls. I really haven't put much thought into this yet.

 

[biglaw22]

I put together some quick renderings. I didn't spend anytime on lighting or the textures so they don't look right, but it gives you an idea of what i am thinking. I'll also have a lot of things missing but is just a quick job as these measurements are not final. I'm having a hard time posting the images... It flashes something on the screen about it, but its too quick to read.

I'll try just 1 of them

 

[biglaw22]

the bar area

 

[Adam]

Those are quick renderings?! I'm highly impressed. Those look very good.

 

[biglaw22]

from the card table location

 

[biglaw22]

as you come down the stairs

 

[biglaw22]

I think this layout will work really well. The bar fridge and the microwave need to go on the wall between the bathroom and the TV.

I'll worry about buying speakers once the space is finished. I have my old setup to hold me over; JBL N28 mains, JBL EC25 center, JBL E20 surrounds, and Klipsch RW-10 its all driven by a Yamaha RX-A1000

 

[FirstReflection]

Wow! Those renders are really cool. What program are you using to make them, if you don't mind me asking?

I have to agree, that looks like the most efficient use of the available space in order to get all the features that you wanted (minus the fireplace, which you could still put in the upper right hand corner by the stairwell entrance).

You might want to give a little though to your speakers - just in so much as whether you might want to use in-wall speakers around both TVs and in-ceiling speakers for the surrounds and zone 2 audio. If you think you might want to go an in-wall or on-wall route, it'd be nice to pre-wire for that. You don't have to install them right away, but you'd certainly want access to the necessary wires if you do a retrofit later.

If you're certain that you'll use regular speakers, you can still run speaker wire in the wall and have a nice wall plate for the speaker wire connection. There are speaker binding post wall plates that fit over a standard outlet box, so that's something to consider

So yeah, the exact brand and type of speaker doesn't really matter, but you'll want to work out the wiring beforehand so that you're not punching holes in the finished walls later just to run wire! And if you're unsure, just run conduit. That way, you can easily pull whatever wire or cable you need in the future