rookie needs help - B&W Matrix 802 Series 3

[timlovesrita]

Hi,
I'm not sure where to post this because it's so general so I'm posting here in the general section. I have a friend that has B&W Matrix 802 Series 3 speakers. He is looking for an amp for them to use with his Yamaha RX-777 stereo receiver. He is totally blind and not into computers, so he asked me to do some research for him. His speaker manual says the amp should have a max of 600w. Does that mean 300w x 2 = 600w, or 600w for each channel (speaker)? It also says "into 8 (with an upside down horseshoe); I think this is ohms? What would you say is a ballpark figure for an amount he should spend for an amp to get the most out of his speakers? Is his receiver good enough to get the most out of these speakers? If not, he is happy to get a new one. Is "Monster cable" good enough to get the most out of these speakers? Does he need a pre-amp? Anyone that can help us please know we appreciate it very much.
Thank you for your time,
Clueless

 

[WmAx]

You probably don't need more power than the receiver can produce, but I don't know what kind of current demands this speaker may require.

Assuming that his receiver has pre-outs.... If he wants considerably more power, and the ability to drive virtually any load, instead of wasting money on a home hi-fi amp with substantially more power, simply get a Yamaha P2500S amplifier($400). 250x2 at 8 ohms, or 310x2 at 4 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, both channels driven. If that's not enough power, then the P3500S($500) should be sufficient. 350x2 into 8 Ohms, 450x2 into 4 Ohms. These amps produce gobs of transparent power, but at lower cost than amplifiers sold for home hi-fi use. There is no difference in the sound quality. The pro-amps, however, are made better, to withstand more physical abuse, as compared to home amps. These are fan-cooled pro amps, but their fans never come on in domestic use: only when the heatsinks exceed 50 C(122F), do the fans start to activate. Typically, to make this happen, you need to be running he amps at very high power for extended durations - usually only possible in performances where large environment are being filled with sound. It does have pro-level inputs, though, and for ideal connection to a consumer device(consumer devices have much lower voltage output on the line signals), you would use an ART Cleanbox or similar. This device is simply an adapter that matches consumer to pro device connections for ideal performance.

If he wants more power, but also wants to spend as little as possible, the Behringer EP2500 pro amp($350) is a great amp. 450x2 at 8 ohms, 650x2 at 4 Ohms. The reason I did not suggest this over the Yamaha amps, is because it will need a slight modification for most home environments. The fan, unlike the Yamahas above, the fan in the Behringer is always on. It is also a loud fan. You need to swap it for a very low noise fan for home use. This is about the same difficulty as changing out the standard case fan in a PC case. It even looks like a PC fan and has the same kind of plug connector.

-Chris

 

[Midcow2]

Behringer Amps !

Hi,
I'm not sure where to post this because it's so general so I'm posting here in the general section. I have a friend that has B&W Matrix 802 Series 3 speakers. He is looking for an amp for them to use with his Yamaha RX-777 stereo receiver. He is totally blind and not into computers, so he asked me to do some research for him. His speaker manual says the amp should have a max of 600w. Does that mean 300w x 2 = 600w, or 600w for each channel (speaker)? It also says "into 8 (with an upside down horseshoe); I think this is ohms? What would you say is a ballpark figure for an amount he should spend for an amp to get the most out of his speakers? Is his receiver good enough to get the most out of these speakers? If not, he is happy to get a new one. Is "Monster cable" good enough to get the most out of these speakers? Does he need a pre-amp? Anyone that can help us please know we appreciate it very much.
Thank you for your time,
Clueless

Here is a really good inexpensive amp:

Must be an 802D which recommends 50w-500w into 8 ohms.

Behringer A500 for as little as $129.95
http://www.audiolines.com/Behringer-A500-p-12906.html
This ultra-linear power amplifier is the top choice for recording studios and post-production work, yet its amazing price is just the beginning. You get true audiophile-grade performance that delivers 2 x 230 Watts into 4 Ohms or 500 Watts into 8 Ohms bridged, with enough overhead to always keep you on the safe side


The next step up which you really don't need is:

Behringer EP1500 for as little as $233.
http://bsless.stores.yahoo.net/ep1500.html
EUROPOWER EP1500
High-end power amps for live applications
2 x 700 Watts (EP2500: 2 x 1,200 Watts) into 2 Ohms
1,400 Watts (EP2500: 2,400 Watts) into 4 Ohms bridged operation

 

[Haoleb]

I know you guys wont agree with me on this but that speaker is very transparent. Your probably going to be able to tell the difference between something such as the behringer units and something better pretty easily.

I dont know how much your friend is wanting to spend but you can pick up any number of good amplifiers used for far less than their original retail price.

 

[WmAx]

The amplifiers I recommended are transparent. Simple as that. There is zero credible evidence to suggest otherwise.

As for the A500 amp -- seriously - that's not enough power over a receiver to even make it worth using IMO.

-Chris

 

[Midcow2]

I know you guys wont agree with me on this but that speaker is very transparent. Your probably going to be able to tell the difference between something such as the behringer units and something better pretty easily.

I dont know how much your friend is wanting to spend but you can pick up any number of good amplifiers used for far less than their original retail price.

Haoleb,

You are smart guy and give lots of good advice, but on this issue I respectly disagree IMHO you have to spend a whole lot more $$ to get better quality.

You are receiving the signals pre-pro from a receiver. The receiver or pre-processors adds all of the equalization, sound expansion and enhancments.

About the only thing a amplifier adds is noise and distortion, so Signal to Noise ratio comes into play, which is insiginificant. so you take a milli-volt signal and make it into several volts, so except for S/N ratio an amp is transparent.

Here are the key A500 specs:
distortion < 0.01%
crosstalk typically 85dB @ 1kHz
frequency range 10hz-25kHz =0/-1 dB
Noise -100dB

here are similar McIntosh MC501specs:
distortion 0.005%
crosstalk ?
frequency range +0,-0.25dB 20 Hz to 20kHz
noixe unbalanced and balanced 97dB (124 dB blow rated input)

Yes, McIntosh is better! without a doubt excellent, but the Berhinger A500 is very good at $129.95 for two channels. The McIntosh MC501 mono-block costs $9,400 per pair to support two channels.


Behringer amps are used in a lot a very , very nice HT systems !

 

[Haoleb]

I will agree that from the sound of the original post it does not seem like the idea here is to get the best of the best. Not that there is anything wrong with that. So perhaps something like the Ep2500 would be fine, Just not something I would choose for those speakers. But then again I wouldnt be running them off a reciever either...

 

[fmw]

Wonderful speakers. I owned a pair myself. They are easy to drive. The receiver will do just fine. Tell him to stop worrying and enjoy the music.

 

[timlovesrita]

rookie needs help - B&W Matrix 802 Series 3 cont.

Hi,
A big thank you to everyone for their responses. Needless to say if you read them all as I did, I'm more confused about what to get then ever. Your response is appreciated very much. I talked to my friend and he says he'd be willing to go as high as $2500 for what he needs to get the most out of the speakers; that $2500 including a receiver (pre-amp?), an amp, and some great cables to tie it all together. So what I'd need now is the name and model numbers of the 3 things he needs so I can tell him exactly what he should buy. I asked B&W and they replied..."Hello and thank you for your email. I usually recommend using a 200 watt amplifier on the Matrix 802’s. This means that you will want a two channel, 200 watts per channel amplifier. I would recommend Rotel, Classe and Mac"
Anyway, you are all experts and it would take me 6 months or longer to familiarize myself with all my options as well as learn enough to make an educated decision as what to buy. But I don't have that kind of time, so I'm hoping you all out there, with all your vast knowledge and experience already under your belts can just tell me exactly what receiver, (pre-amp?), amp, and cables to tell him to buy. Thanx in advance for this assistance and Arthur (my friend) told me to say thanx from him too.
Tim

 

[Haoleb]

to clarify then, what equipment does he have already? You mentioned the reciever, I take it that he does not want to use that? What about sources?

Is this only going to be a 2 channel stereo system?

 

[timlovesrita]

to clarify

He wants to build a system around the 2 B&W Matrix 802 Series 3 speakers that he has already. No others sources yet. Starting from scratch since we realize his current reciever isnt up to par. Yes, a 2 speaker (2 channel) system. He is blind so he can hear things better than most people so that's why he wants a really good system built around his existing speakers.
Thanx,
Tim (for Arthur)

 

[Haoleb]

Alrighty, There are a ton of great products out in many different categories, There really is no one thing that stands out above everything else. In your price range, personally these are the products I would look at.

For a strictly two channel system I do not reccomend going the reciever route, his budget allows for seperates which would mean you'll need a preamp, power amp and then a source(s)

You can also go for an integrated amplifier for a simpler, one box setup that contains the preamp and poweramp in the same chassis.

For preamps I would probably look at the Parasound P3, NAD C162 because they are both versatile units that are usually pretty easy to find locally and online. Used as well.

Poweramps... well there are so many.. NAD C272, Parasound 2250, Parasound A21, Emotiva, Outlaw monoblocks, the yamaha ones Wmax suggested and so on. If you could find a pair of Odyssey Stratos mono SE used that would be pretty good. Really there is no best. Everyone likes something else.

Look at the Oppo universal players for a disc playing source.

A reputable dealer will sometimes allow you to take home a product for an in-home audition so you may want to try and do that as well.

 

[jostenmeat]

I would also get 2-ch electronics for these speakers. If you don't need 7 channels, why? I've run upon a review now and then that found a cheaper integrated to sound superior to more expensive receivers; I believe it might've even been an audioholics review? Less stuff going on in the 2-ch or something.

I got an integrated because it was the only way I was going to stay within the proposed budget. Otherwise if you go separates, you can always play around in the future. If the amp blows, all you need is to buy any amp, etc.

There are a lot of good deals on the used classifieds if that is ok, for Rotel particularly. I think Classe will blow the budget no matter how you slice it.

So, I got a Cambridge 840A. Pretty decent deal if you get the very-recently-superceded version. The new version lists for 1.7k I believe, and a couple hundred less on the street. The older version is had commonly used for $750, or 1k as new. Id try to talk that down a little (got mine for less earlier this year).

And once you decide on some electronics, I recommend researching room acoustics as well as speaker positioning and listener positioning to get the most you can out of these nice speakers.

 

[WmAx]

He wants to build a system around the 2 B&W Matrix 802 Series 3 speakers that he has already. No others sources yet. Starting from scratch since we realize his current reciever isnt up to par. Yes, a 2 speaker (2 channel) system. He is blind so he can hear things better than most people so that's why he wants a really good system built around his existing speakers.
Thanx,
Tim (for Arthur)

Please note: the best sound will be achieved by adding a high quality DSP Equalizer to the system - which usually requires separates(so that you can insert the processor between the pre-amp and amplifier). If the highest quality, deepest reaching bass is required, ideally, one will use active DSP xover and combine matching stereo subs(one within a few feet of each main channel); by this method a seamless combination of the subwoofer to mains can occur for critical listening purposes.

-Chris

 

[fmw]

Tim the confusion you sense is the difference between beliefs and facts in the audio business. You have responses from both objectivist and subjectivist audio people.

Modern solid state amplifiers don't have a sound. It's a fact. So the amplifier itself won't affect the sonics. If the speakers were difficult to drive, then an amp comfortable with low impedances would be indicated. The 802's are not difficult to drive.

Cables are the same. There are a very few expensive ones designed to act as tone controls but you want to steer clear of those. The rest of it is snake oil. Tested fact. Spending more money than necessary on cables is truly a waste.

The key to good sonics in a high fi system are the speakers and room acoustics. Your friend has oustanding speakers and I speak from personal experience. The rest of the stuff isn't really very important. So, if he falls into the "belief" camp rather than the "tested facts" camp then he should just get whatever makes him feel good. It won't affect the sonics. That's a tested fact. Good luck.

 

[rnatalli]

I replied in the other thread that was created. I suggested giving Emotiva a look. Their RSP series is for 2-channel listening. They also have the XPA-2 which offers loads of amp for a reasonable price.