Right Move.............??????

WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
more resonant than other commercial offerings?
or
more resonant than your modified speakers?
More resonant than some other commercial offerings. The Ascend has no cross or shelf bracing. None. Some commercial bookshelves, such as the Infinity Primus(just given as a comparable price range competitor) has a shelf brace.

As for my modified version; I would wager that only a select handful of bookshelf speakers in production have comparable resonance behavior.

-Chris
 
D

davef

Audioholic Intern
More resonant than some other commercial offerings. The Ascend has no cross or shelf bracing. None. Some commercial bookshelves, such as the Infinity Primus(just given as a comparable price range competitor) has a shelf brace.

As for my modified version; I would wager that only a select handful of bookshelf speakers in production have comparable resonance behavior.

-Chris
Hi Chris,

Just to clarify, the CMT-340 SE has a full size 5/8" thick shelf brace in the center of the cabinet and joint bracing at each panel joint. The CBM-170 SE (the speaker you are referring to) does not have a shelf brace (it is not needed in the 170SE) but does have 20 joint braces strategically placed where needed. As you well know, we take cabinet resonance quite seriously here :)
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
Hi Chris,

Just to clarify, the CMT-340 SE has a full size 5/8" thick shelf brace in the center of the cabinet and joint bracing at each panel joint. The CBM-170 SE (the speaker you are referring to) does not have a shelf brace (it is not needed in the 170SE) but does have 20 joint braces strategically placed where needed. As you well know, we take cabinet resonance quite seriously here :)
i'm sure you do :)

but Chris here has extreme requirements, he actually meant it as a compliment to mention your speaker :D

maybe one day i'll get to try your speakers :) ... after i'm done with subwoofers. (if that ever happens)
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
As you well know, we take cabinet resonance quite seriously here :)
Eh? LOL.

Now, here is a CMB-170 I revised to make non - resonant. Now, I DO take resonance seriously. Here, we have a 1/8" thick visco-elastic dampening layer adhered to the original walls, with 1/2" concrete slabs cut and adhered to the layer, creating a constrained layer system with high efficiency. To follow up, I have added steel subframe with steel bracing every couple of inches. Various oak and steel enforcement have been added to the front baffle. A new rear was constructed and installed. A higher effective internal absorption material was also used, specifically, 8 lb/ft^3 mineral wool board.





As for the effectiveness of modification, here is an accelerometer plot, on the side panel, in the same position, for mod vs. stock. The mod provides over 30dB of attenuation at some points, with an overall average around 20dB lower in level.


-Chris
 
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D

davef

Audioholic Intern
i'm sure you do :)

but Chris here has extreme requirements, he actually meant it as a compliment to mention your speaker :D

Oh -- I know :) Chris and I have shared several emails in the past. I have much respect for what he does...
 
D

davef

Audioholic Intern
Eh? LOL.

Now, here is a CMB-170 I revised to make non - resonant. Now, I DO take resonance seriously. Here, we have a 1/8" thick visco-elastic dampening layer adhered to the original walls, with 1/2" concrete slabs cut and adhered to the layer, creating a constrained layer system with high efficiency. To follow up, I have added steel subframe with steel bracing every couple of inches. Various oak and steel enforcement have been added to the front baffle. A new rear was constructed and installed.

-Chris
Chris, now even I would consider that a bit obsessive :eek: :eek: :eek: :p
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Chris, now even I would consider that a bit obsessive :eek: :eek: :eek: :p
Excessive? Nah. It does provide for an absolute transparent cabinet, however, when combined with the high density absorption materials I used. It has the same type of transparency as a really good electrostat. A/Bing a stock to modified unit makes the stock one sound muddy/low-resolution. But I do realize it's not practical to provide for such an inert cabinet system for actual retail sale/production.

BTW, the reason for this mod, was that someone wanted an extremely high grade monopolar system, but did not want to pay for a commercial speaker of that caliber. The mods included the cabinet revision, and a correction filter set to be used through a DCX2496 to further linearize the response, and to provide customized baffle step and treble response compensation(s) according to the user's preference(s). In actual use, it is crossed around 80-90Hz, and used with twin/stereo Velodyne DD-12 subwoofers, one located within a 1/2 wavelength of the xover frequency of each speaker, to allow for perfected/seamless integration.

Currently, I am doing a far more extensive modification of a Primus 362. In fact, it's hard to call it a modification now - as of this point - it's an entirely new speaker and crossover system that salvages part of he original cabinet and a couple of the original drivers(with a new tweeter and added 8" JL W7 drivers for the bass). I do tend to get carried away.....

On top of the Primus 362 project I am also doing some very special virtual omnipolar 3 way custom speakers at the same time, that will use 8" JL W7s for the bass-midbass, Infinity MRS drivers for the mids(mirrored on front/back), the same type used in Infinity's new Prelude system, and planar tweeters with unusually wide dispersion. The system will have extraordinary dynamic range due to the MRS drivers and W7 woofers, and it will have flat response, up to 15khz, even at +/- 75 degrees, in both the front and rear hemispheres of the speaker. It will be the size of a larger bookshelf speaker, but it will weigh in the range of 150-180lbs each. The system will of course not be allowed to have any significant resonance. Target cabinet vibration amplitude is to be a minimum of 30 dB averaged lower amplitude as compared to the average cabinet system.

-Chris
 
D

davef

Audioholic Intern
As for the effectiveness of modification, here is an accelerometer plot, on the side panel, in the same position, for mod vs. stock. The mod provides over 30dB of attenuation at some points, with an overall average around 20dB lower in level.


-Chris

Chris, quick note... Accelerometer based frequency domain measurements are not an appropriate method to evaluate cabinet resonance. You do need to examine cabinet resonance in the time domain. You need to look at the effects of your modifications over a period of milliseconds, determining the rate of reduction (decay time). MDF does not resonate at 2 kHz (your measurements indicate that this is the CBM-170SE highest resonant mode). MDF will have its strongest resonant modes in the 200-400Hz range.

In addition, I am not quite sure you are interpreting your results properly. I can possibly believe the 10dB average reduction in resonance in the 70-200Hz range, but certainly not in that 2 kHz range... Simply put, your measurements seem to indicate that the 170 SE cabinet has its highest resonance mode at 2 kHz -- which is most certainly not the case... In fact, your measurement of the 170SE is more representative of a graph that shows the combined amplitude output of both drivers. Your peak is at 1.8 kHz, the precise crossover point of the woofer and tweeter (the point at which both the woofer and tweeter output are summing equally). Above this point, your measurement shows *resonance* falling off at a rate close to the woofer roll-off rate, and the same goes for below 1.8kHz coming close to the tweeter roll-off rate.

I believe you are seeing *something* -- but it is not cabinet resonance. I would be happy to measure your modified 170SE in comparison to a stock 170SE and post the measurements at few specified frequencies (displayed in an energy vs time vs frequency graph (exactly the same process and equipment as stereophile). Here is an example:



Notice the highest resonance mode is at 300Hz and that it takes 62 ms to dissipate. If you are measuring what you call a resonance at 2 kHz from the 170SE, and it dissipates instantly, it is not cabinet resonance.

Again, I would be happy to measure, compare and even post the results, but until I can do that, I do not agree that your measurement is actually showing cabinet resonance and I feel that anyone considering your modifications should be aware.

In addition, while I am confident that your modifications will improve cabinet resonance, the dramatic reduction in cabinet volume will absolutely have a negative effect on performance. I would recommend that you increase the depth of the speaker cabinet to compensate for this.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Chris, quick note... Accelerometer based frequency domain measurements are not an appropriate method to evaluate cabinet resonance. You do need to examine cabinet resonance in the time domain. You need to look at the effects of your modifications over a period of milliseconds, determining the rate of reduction (decay time). MDF does not resonate at 2 kHz (your measurements indicate that this is the CBM-170SE highest resonant mode). MDF will have its strongest resonant modes in the 200-400Hz range.
Frequency domain plots are perfectly valid - they show a specific amplitude comparison of the total wall vibration response, and in addition, if you can figure out the actual acoustic dB level in reference to direct driver output, averaged for all contributing panels, the only proper way to correlate the audibility is using frequency response graphs over layed with each other to figure out relative dB and Q of the response peaks. To me, waterfall response graphs are of lesser use, since I care about the total cabinet response curve. The accelerometer used is not calibrated, but is a known accurate unit, the ACH-01, which is accurate within a couple of dB, through the audio band. It is perfectly normal to see significant vibration in the kHz range in wood based walls when examining the frequency response of the walls, also, refer to the amplitude based measurements here which show response substantially into the treble band:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/lowering-mechanical-noise-floor-in-speakers-pt-2/lowering-mechanical-noise-floor-in-speakers-pt-2-page-2

ACH-01 response of another MDF cabinet from another party showing substantial output into the treble band: http://www.libinst.com/epicure5.gif

Significant amplitudes in the treble range is typical.

Now, it is possible, and I will concede, that the 2kHz peak in my graph, may be the coupling frequency of the accelerometer as it was fastened to the cabinet wall with double sided polymer tape that is removable. In addition, it is also possible the pre-amp used on the ACH-01 here has a RLC reaction in the circuit causing a lower end spectrum attenuation of some degree. But since my measurements are only relative to each other, and made with the same device and conditions, I am only interested in the relative compared differences, which will not be affected by this, as these will remain a constant as lone as the same throughput system is used every time. But besides that potential joint frequency resonance of the accelerometer to wall coupling, I have no reason to doubt the response of the accelerometer. And the response shape of the post-mod measurement is exactly what I would expect, based on the extreme stiff structure resulting from concrete and dense steel bracing(resulting in very low amplitude, but substantially raised panel frequency excitation).



I believe you are seeing *something* -- but it is not cabinet resonance.
In fact, I am interested in total cabinet response, not just the cabinet resonance, since the cabinet is in fact acting like a separate transducer and it's output is contaminating the acoustic contribution to the room.

I don't use the waterfall graph function for this comparison method because it is not easy to overlay waterfall graphs, and again, the FR shows me everything I want to know(overall cabinet response) and the result of overall cabinet response after modifications.

I would be happy to measure your modified 170SE in comparison to a stock 170SE and post the measurements at few specified frequencies (displayed in an energy vs time vs frequency graph (exactly the same process and equipment as stereophile). Here is an example:
The speaker is not in my possession now.

In addition, while I am confident that your modifications will improve cabinet resonance, the dramatic reduction in cabinet volume will absolutely have a negative effect on performance. I would recommend that you increase the depth of the speaker cabinet to compensate for this.
The modification did not include a total refinishing the cabinets(which would have been required to extend the depth). But even so, the reduction in volume here was not great, and the effect that occurred were completely compensated for electronically in the DCX correction curve.

-Chris
 
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J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I have decided to wait a bit longer on getting a BR player and opted for this speaker change instead. Did I do the right thing? Anyways, I could use some guidance right now. So, I am kinda counting on you guys for help. As always, it would be much appreciated.
Phil, I might've voted for the BD player! And I really only have favorable things to say about Ascend.

If you have any sort of decent viewing angle with display, I vote the BDP before the rears.

I also sorta wished you only ordered one pair of mains. If you liked them, you can always add the center. But, you are getting past knee deep already. Just my 2 cents. I hope you like em, and I bet you will . . .
 
STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
Well, just today I pulled the trigger on some Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 SE Mains and the matching CMT-340 SE Center. Is going from Polk RTi6's, and the CSi3 to the CMT-340 SE Mains/CMT-340 SE Center an upgrade? Are there any members here that have done the same thing? Or, perhaps some members here that are very familiar with any of these speakers? If so, please share your thoughts. My plan is to add the CBM-170's for the rears as soon as I can. I have decided to wait a bit longer on getting a BR player and opted for this speaker change instead. Did I do the right thing? Anyways, I could use some guidance right now. So, I am kinda counting on you guys for help. As always, it would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Phil
Hi Phil,

I have 340se's across the front and 170se's as surrounds. I like my Ascends. I upgraded from a miss match of vintage stuff so anything would have been an improvement.:) I really liked the Paradigm Studio 20's and everything I read told me that the Ascends were very similar so for the money I took a shot. In my experience the Ascends don't have the bass out put of the Paradigm Studios but I have not ever compared them side by side so...and it doesn't matter because I use a sub XO'd at 80htz 99% of the time anyway.

The lack of a bass hump in the Ascends might make them sound just a little thin at first depending on the type of music you are listening to and if the RTi's have a bass hump so give yourself a chance to get used to the "flat" FR. After that the thing that jumped out at me was that guitars and horns sound very realistic and detailed.

I don't think you'll have any problems with your receiver in your room.

If you have any questions let me know...
SBF1
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Phil, I might've voted for the BD player! And I really only have favorable things to say about Ascend.

If you have any sort of decent viewing angle with display, I vote the BDP before the rears.

I also sorta wished you only ordered one pair of mains. If you liked them, you can always add the center. But, you are getting past knee deep already. Just my 2 cents. I hope you like em, and I bet you will . . .
Hey Jost and thanks for posting. I can still get a BR player, but will have to use the plastic. :rolleyes::rolleyes: I may end up doing that anyways. Just depends on how the pricing goes. Not sure what you mean "wished I had only ordered my mains", but the free shipping offer was good on the CMT-340 Mains as well as the CMT-340 Center. I have been wanting to do that for a while now and finally got the chance so I pounced. If, I had bought some Polk towers I would have spent even more money. This is why I feel like I made the right choice. If nothing else, I can always send the speakers back which is doubtful that will happen. However, I do appreciate your input.

Cheers,

Phil
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Oh I see. I just guess I wanted you to have as much flexibility in choosing. Let's say I ordered an entire 7.1 from company X. If they sounded at least decent, not a WHOLE lot better than my present set, I'd probably keep the darn set just out of laziness and/or shipping costs.

But with just one pair, I'd think it would be easy to put them through the paces, A/B'd against whatever pair I did own. And once I would be sure, then I can fill the rest out with assurance. Cheers Phil. (and make sure to click on "Link" in my first post at Six Bluray Player Shootout for decent deals).
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Hi Phil,

I have 340se's across the front and 170se's as surrounds. I like my Ascends. I upgraded from a miss match of vintage stuff so anything would have been an improvement.:) I really liked the Paradigm Studio 20's and everything I read told me that the Ascends were very similar so for the money I took a shot. In my experience the Ascends don't have the bass out put of the Paradigm Studios but I have not ever compared them side by side so...and it doesn't matter because I use a sub XO'd at 80htz 99% of the time anyway.

The lack of a bass hump in the Ascends might make them sound just a little thin at first depending on the type of music you are listening to and if the RTi's have a bass hump so give yourself a chance to get used to the "flat" FR. After that the thing that jumped out at me was that guitars and horns sound very realistic and detailed.

I don't think you'll have any problems with your receiver in your room.

If you have any questions let me know...
SBF1
Hi Strong, and thanks for posting. I do believe that the 340's across the front will be a significant improvement. Like you, I have a sub or subs for that matter handling everything below 80 Hz or so. I also swent Dave a PM asking him about the 4 ohm thing. He told me the 340's are and have always been 8 ohms. As such, my Yammie should be up to the task especially since my room is sooooooo small. ;);) I will also be ordering the 170's for my rears, but need to recoup a bit first. There really is no big hurry. Thanks for the info and I may be in touch if I have any questions.

Cheers,

Phil
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Oh I see. I just guess I wanted you to have as much flexibility in choosing. Let's say I ordered an entire 7.1 from company X. If they sounded at least decent, not a WHOLE lot better than my present set, I'd probably keep the darn set just out of laziness and/or shipping costs.

But with just one pair, I'd think it would be easy to put them through the paces, A/B'd against whatever pair I did own. And once I would be sure, then I can fill the rest out with assurance. Cheers Phil. (and make sure to click on "Link" in my first post at Six Bluray Player Shootout for decent deals).
Oh very good points. Guess lately, I have been about half brain-dead. :D:D This thing with my Mom and everything else going on has taken a toll on me. I can fully see where you were coming from my friend. I am sure I will like the Ascends, if not I will send them back. However, it is doubtful that will ever happen. The RTi6's are great, but do want more dynamic capability. This is why I opted for the 340-Mains. The 340-C should also be a step-up from the CSi3 dynamically speaking. But, you do make a good case. It is much appreciated.

Cheers,

Phil
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
That's what we're here for!:)

SBF1
Amen bro. This is what I like about this hobby-learning, growing, sharing, and making some good friends. It is like we are all one big family. ;);)

Cheers,

Phil
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Guys, do any of you think my Polk RTi6's would suffice for my rears? My set-up is a 5.2 as there is no room for 7.2. Just trying to figure out how the RTi6's would mesh with the Ascend CMT-340's up front. I am fully aware that the Polks won't be timbre matched to the Ascends. If nothing else, would the RTi6's suffice for the time being? Thanks for helping.

Cheers,

Phil
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Guys, do any of you think my Polk RTi6's would suffice for my rears? My set-up is a 5.2 as there is no room for 7.2. Just trying to figure out how the RTi6's would mesh with the Ascend CMT-340's up front. I am fully aware that the Polks won't be timbre matched to the Ascends. If nothing else, would the RTi6's suffice for the time being? Thanks for helping.

Cheers,

Phil
They will work fine even for permanent use. The surrounds do not need to have anywhere near the quality of the front speakers. The surrounds only handle sound F/X and ambiance 99.9% of the time.

-Chris
 
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