Requesting Receiver Advice for B&W CM Series

[Syselim]

We're finishing a bonus room in the house and it's finally time for me to replace the JBL / Denon AVR2003 home theater I've had since college. After debating speakers I think I've selected the Bowers and Wilkins CM series over the Atlantic 8200e series speakers. (Maybe it's that they weren't as massive and the looks pleased my wife, or maybe it's a the brand-whore deep within)

Anyways, I need a receiver. I'm familiar with Denon/Marantz as we used to sell them for some business IT integration and I've owned one. I wish I could afford nice separates but I can't. Maybe down the road I can toss in a 7 channel amp.

I've looked at a couple of receivers and have an idea of what I want, but am looking for opinions. I've never had an Onkyo product but liked the 3008. I've read some good things about the Pioneer Elite SC-35 or the VSX-33 but have no personal experience with the brand. The NAD's are nice, but for the ones I can afford seem to be a little lacking in features/underpowered.

Sources are few and simple. DirecTV HD receiver, and streaming blu-ray rips through a device. (Right now it's an HDMI Mac mini running Boxee, maybe a Boxee Box after some more firmware updates)

I'm looking for a receiver that will bring out the best in the CM series and provide as little frustration as possible down the road. (I don't want to be praying the the next firmware release fixes all my problems) I'm planning on buying the larger CM9's, the larger center, and the larger sub from the CM series. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[josko]

I run a set of B&W 803d fronts and Htm2 center and could really hear the difference between a Yamaha 663 and separates. Many people will tell you there's no difference between a 100W receiver amp and a good 100W separate, but to my ear, when you get to this caliber of speaker, there was. I run my 803's from a Levinson 334 and my center/rears from an Adcom 7000. I spend a lot of time listening to just the fronts in stereo mode.
IMHO, it's worth at least trying separates.

 

[Syselim]

Everything I've heard as well agrees with what you said. The speakers (particularly the B&W's) don't open up fully until you have a dedicated amp powering them. I was hoping that if I could not spend too much on a receiver, I could upgrade in the future and use pre-outs to send to a receiver.

In addition, much like contrast ratios on TVs, advertised power ratings on receivers don't mean much at all. A separate power amp and it's power rating is a lot more accurate.

I looked at the Emotiva Pro/Amp as featured on this site, but after reading countless threads on AVSforum, I think I will save myself the pain.

 

[zumbo]

I use a Yamaha RX-Z7 as a pre-amp in my system. The receiver has plenty power for your current set-up on it's on.

The cool feature of the Z7 is that it has a pre-amp mode that actually shuts down the internal amps.

It's a fantastic piece, and you will be set for a superb pre-amp when you decide to add an amp later.

It is 1.3, not 1.4. It does not support 3D, just depends if that matters to you.

I have no idea how long this price will last, but it's a smoking deal for a piece of this quality.

http://www.6ave.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=YAMRXZ7BL


Link to Yamaha:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx/rx-z7_black__u/?mode=model

 

[Syselim]

Well I just went down to the B&W dealer and they pushed the Rotel 1550 on me stating I could upgrade with an amp later. All their demos they had with the B&W's were with Rotels. My problem is the current model is from May 2009 and while it has had lots of firmware upgrades over the years I don't think I want to buy one only to have a new one announced at CES in January! But alas it did sound awesome so I had to run out of there fast while I still had the sense to.

I will certainly look into those amps you guys suggested. Anything else would be appreciated.

 

[zumbo]

It looks cool. Specs don't measure-up to the Z7.

You can upgrade with amps on any receiver with pre-outs.

 

[GranteedEV]

I recommend picking up a Marantz SR5005 receiver with an Emotiva XPA-3 amp. The Marantz amps to handle the surrounds and the emotiva amp to handle the fronts.

Alternatively

Emotiva UPA-1 Processor and whatever combination of Emotiva amp fits your budget and needs. Excellent bang for buck. A UPA-7 or maybe a UPA-5 + XPA-2/3? Or maybe just a single XPA-5?

I looked at the Emotiva Pro/Amp as featured on this site, but after reading countless threads on AVSforum, I think I will save myself the pain.

What pain? The completely financially covered possibility that there may (and likely won't... people are known to blow things way out of proportion... avsforum made the Marantz SR5004 seem like a ticking time bomb even though most owners probably havent' even commented on it) be firmware issues and you'll have to return the unit? How painful it is to essentially audition a product and if it's not for you you have to return it and get your money back

Many people will tell you there's no difference between a 100W receiver amp and a good 100W separate, but to my ear, when you get to this caliber of speaker, there was.

Within their limits, there shouldn't be. However many 3 ways are notorius for having high current demands. So the difference between a 100w receiver amp that does 100w into 8 ohms, 135w into 4 ohms and 140w into 2 ohms (and then shuts down) and a 100w separates amp that does 100w into 8 ohms, 180w into 4 ohms, and can do a temporary 300w or whatever into 2 ohms without shutting down is obvious. You won't hear it with an 8 ohm speaker, but you'll definitely hear it with a speaker that dips into the 2.5 ohm range.

It has less to do with "caliber of speaker" and more to do with how demanding the load is - voltage sensitivity and impedance basically. Of course there's still differences between amplifiers in other ways (noise being the main one, and output impedance being notable with tubes).

 

[zumbo]

Something I put together on a couple of other threads:

Yamaha receiver as a pre-amp:
http://www.6ave.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=YAMRXV1065BL

Emo amp:
http://emotiva.com/xpa5.shtm

 

[Syselim]

What pain? The completely financially covered possibility that there may (and likely won't... people are known to blow things way out of proportion... avsforum made the Marantz SR5004 seem like a ticking time bomb even though most owners probably havent' even commented on it) be firmware issues and you'll have to return the unit? How painful it is to essentially audition a product and if it's not for you you have to return it and get your money back

Well I was very excited with the Emotiva separates from what I had read here as well as on their site. The 'pain' as a I mentioned came from the AVSForums where everyone seemed to be complaining about everything under the sun. It may be unjustified, but there's 365 pages in the UMC-1 thread and it was enough to scare me off! The amps on the other hand still have my attention.

From the demo I had today, I would also like an amp that I can reassign unused power and bi-amp the fronts.

 

[GranteedEV]

Well I was very excited with the Emotiva separates from what I had read here as well as on their site. The 'pain' as a I mentioned came from the AVSForums where everyone seemed to be complaining about everything under the sun. It may be unjustified, but there's 365 pages in the UMC-1 thread and it was enough to scare me off! The amps on the other hand still have my attention.

The UMC-1 has had issues but that doesn't make it the plague. It's had its share of firmware updates to address some problems, and their official stance is currently that even if you bought it a long time ago you can still return it if the next firmware update doesn't solve your problems. It's one thing to gamble on a poor product from a company with questionable customer service. Here you've got nothing to lose except maybe a bit of time, and only quality to gain. You shouldn't let yourself be scared away like that. If you do in fact expereince useability problems you can return it, and if you don't, you've got an otherwise excellent dedicated pre/pro with excellent sound quality for an excellent price. You have to realize that other people's experiences will tell you whether you want to do business with a company, but they won't tell you if a product is right for your applications.

From the demo I had today, I would also like an amp that I can reassign unused power and bi-amp the fronts.

That's passive bi-amping, and unless your amps are insufficient, it's useless and a big waste of power. It can have positive audible effects with a pair of mediocre amps, but something like emotiva XPA series will not benefit from bi amping.

Active bi amping however is another deal and has many advantages.

 

[Syselim]

@GranteedEV First: 'Thanks.' What's your take on balanced XLR in/outs? I noticed that Emotiva sells amps with them but the UMC-1 doesn't have them. Worth it? What else can you say on the XPA vs UPA series?

The CM speakers I'm sold on. I'm not getting the Rotel. I'm down to:

-Taking a chance the Emotiva combo
-The Z7 (with an amp to be purchase later)
-The Pioneer SC-27 (with an amp to be purchased later)

 

[zumbo]

Z7. No contest. Seriously doubt you will need an external amp.

The only three reasons I run an external amp with my Z7;

1) All five speakers are 4ohm with 89dB sensitivity in a very large exposed beam(no attic) room.

2) Already employed the external amp in my system before the Z7 was added.

3) Purchased the Z7 while shopping for a dedicated pre-amp. Chose it over a similarly priced Rotel 1570 pre-amp.

 

[GranteedEV]

@GranteedEV First: 'Thanks.' What's your take on balanced XLR in/outs? I noticed that Emotiva sells amps with them but the UMC-1 doesn't have them. Worth it? What else can you say on the XPA vs UPA series?

Balanced XLR are useful for longer runs and I think they fit really nicely (they "click" in). It won't make a huge difference but I do like them. XLR is without a doubt better BUT it won't take you to or from audio nirvana if you have to choose between XLR and RCA.

Emotiva will eventually release their XMC-1 prepro which will have balanced outs (and be a bit higher end with more features... they're probably beta testing it like crazy because of the UMC issues). The advantage of emotiva prepros is that when they release new ones, they give owners of old ones a %40 discount to upgrade. The Marantz AV7005 currently has balanced outs and is also an excellent pre pro you can probably find for around $1200 brand new (MSRP $1400 i think). Definitely not the bargain the Emotiva is. I like that the emotiva gives a true entry level option... get into dedicated separates first and then upgrade later if you want.

Emotiva amps are split in this sort of level of quality

XPA-1 - Probably the last amplifier anyone would ever need. It's the only fully differential one in their lineup.

XPA-2 - Also probably the last amplifier anyone would ever need, unless they get upgraditis . It's not fully differential.
UPA-1 - Also probably the last amplifier anyone would ever need, unless they get upgraditis . It's not fully differential. If I can, I want to pick up 3 of these or 3 outlaw
M2200 monoblocks. I don't even know if monoblocks are really even worth it but i like the idea

XPA-3,5 - loads of power on tap. Definitely excellent amplifiers that can drive 95% of loudspeaker loads to ridiculous volumes.

UPA-7,5,2 - These things will blow receiver amplifiers out of the water, but will definitely lead you on the path of upgraditis because they're "only 125w into 8 ohms/185w into 4 ohms" which of course never feels like enough even if it's actually overkill I think these would make excellent surround amps to pair with XPAs as front amps.

This site has quite a few Emotiva amplifier reviews, including the UPA-7 and XPA-2 among older ones.

 

[zumbo]

I don't trust any receiver that has a separate 6 ohm switch and no specified 4 ohm watts rating... B&W states that the CM9 has a 3 ohm minimum impedance on the info sheet.

Even if it drives them, it won't drive them with that 100% sense of comfort you get from separates amps.

I believe it's a requirement to have the switch/setting. I don't use them.

From the Audioholics review;

I tested the RX-Z7 in the "8 ohm or more" and "6 ohm" settings and as you will see in my lab tests, power was drastically reduced in the "6 ohm" setting. In NO circumstance do I ever recommend using this setting regardless of your loudspeaker impedance. This switch is put there for one purpose only – to pass UL heat dissipation requirements of driving low impedance loads. All it does is limit the output voltage to the amplifiers so that they clip at lower power and thus under their test condition, the receiver generates less heat.

IMO, there is no receiver available that will give me 100% sense of comfort I get from my separate amp. OTOH, the Z7's amp section is plenty capable.

From the Audioholics review:
The RX-Z7 exhibited an excellently low output impedance which indicates to me they are employing a lot of negative feedback but also using quality output devices and a large enough power supply to be stable at full power into 4 ohm loads. It fell within our 100 mohm mark for the entire audible bandwidth and maintained itself even when driving at max sustained power levels into 8 ohm and 4 ohm loads. This proves that the RX-Z7 will sound consistently good no matter what loudspeaker load it is driving.
The amplifier damping factor is about what I expected based on the measured output impedance. It is uniformly good across the entire audio frequency range at around the 80 mark (50 is a minimum we like to see in all amplifiers of uncompromising design) when driving an 8 ohm loads. Into 4 ohm loads the Damping factor is exactly as expected, ½ the 8 ohm value and demonstrates that the Z7 is happy to drive low impedance loads at full power without much fuss.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/rx-z7-7.1

 

[GranteedEV]

I believe it's a requirement to have the switch/setting. I don't use them.

IMO, there is no receiver available that will give me 100% sense of comfort I get from my separate amp. OTOH, the Z7's amp section is plenty capable.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/rx-z7-7.1

No, I believe only a few brands have the switch. I'm pretty sure my marantz receiver doesn't have the switch.

 

[zumbo]

No, I believe only a few brands have the switch. I'm pretty sure my marantz receiver doesn't have the switch.

It's actually a menu set-up feature, not an actual switch.
Read Z7 review linked. Also, edited previous post#14 a few times.

 

[zumbo]

Four hours with no response from the actual bench tests of the Z7 showing it's ability to drive a 4ohm load. Guess that settles it.

 

[zumbo]

Post was deleted. Interesting. I will accept that.