Requesting feedback on 5.2.1 Atmos Experience

[5arnolds]

I currently have the following 5.1 setup:

Polk Audio CSi A4 (Center, below television in picture below)
Polk Audio RC85i (Right & Left Front In-Wall, white wall speakers in the picture below)
Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 800 (Right & Left Surrounds, black speakers near the ceiling angled down in the picture below)
SVS PB2000 (Sub)

My set-up isn't 100% the way it should be because the rear surrounds are even with the couch rather than being slightly behind the couch, but regardless I have been very pleased with the sound. My setup is in a below ground-level finished basement (carpeting/drywall/drywall 8 foot ceilings w/recessed lighting). The seating area is approximately 10 feet from the television/front/center speakers.

I've been given permission by my wife to start doing some upgrades. I will more than likely be purchasing the Denon AVR-X2300W (7.1) to replace my Denon 1801. I've been going back and forth whether to set it up for 7.1 or 5.1.2 (Atmos). Countless hours of surfing the web/reading blogs/articles and then chatting with a Crutchfield advisor (where I anticipate purchasing the AVR) has convinced me that I should consider going the route of 5.1.2 Atmos...according to the advisor, Atmos will be a more rewarding experience than 7.1. He said that where my current surround is (even with the couch) should be fine with Atmos, and that I just need to add the 2 additional Atmos ceiling speakers about 2-3 feet in front of the couch and in line with the front L&R speakers.

In scouring the web, what I seem to find more than anything is, go with Atmos, HOWEVER, go with 5.1.4 instead of 5.1.2. Well, I did not intend to buy a 9.2 AVR (>$1,000).

For anyone that has the 5.1.2 setup, and especially if you upgraded from a 5.1 setup, I am very interested to hear your thoughts on how it sounds. The bottom line is this. When I upgrade the AVR and add the 2 additional ceiling speakers and set them up for Atmos, I want to be able to hear an obvious improvement (when playing Atmos movies) that justifies doing it. If it's going to be very subtle or negligible when compared to 5.1, maybe I need to re-think things and wait awhile until I can afford a 9.2 AVR, which will allow for 5.1.2.

Thoughts?

 

[Mitchibo]

I currently have the following 5.1 setup:

Polk Audio CSi A4 (Center, below television in picture below)
Polk Audio RC85i (Right & Left Front In-Wall, white wall speakers in the picture below)
Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 800 (Right & Left Surrounds, black speakers near the ceiling angled down in the picture below)
SVS PB2000 (Sub)

My set-up isn't 100% the way it should be because the rear surrounds are even with the couch rather than being slightly behind the couch, but regardless I have been very pleased with the sound. My setup is in a below ground-level finished basement (carpeting/drywall/drywall 8 foot ceilings w/recessed lighting). The seating area is approximately 10 feet from the television/front/center speakers.

I've been given permission by my wife to start doing some upgrades. I will more than likely be purchasing the Denon AVR-X2300W (7.1) to replace my Denon 1801. I've been going back and forth whether to set it up for 7.1 or 5.1.2 (Atmos). Countless hours of surfing the web/reading blogs/articles and then chatting with a Crutchfield advisor (where I anticipate purchasing the AVR) has convinced me that I should consider going the route of 5.1.2 Atmos...according to the advisor, Atmos will be a more rewarding experience than 7.1. He said that where my current surround is (even with the couch) should be fine with Atmos, and that I just need to add the 2 additional Atmos ceiling speakers about 2-3 feet in front of the couch and in line with the front L&R speakers.

In scouring the web, what I seem to find more than anything is, go with Atmos, HOWEVER, go with 5.1.4 instead of 5.1.2. Well, I did not intend to buy a 9.2 AVR (>$1,000).

For anyone that has the 5.1.2 setup, and especially if you upgraded from a 5.1 setup, I am very interested to hear your thoughts on how it sounds. The bottom line is this. When I upgrade the AVR and add the 2 additional ceiling speakers and set them up for Atmos, I want to be able to hear an obvious improvement (when playing Atmos movies) that justifies doing it. If it's going to be very subtle or negligible when compared to 5.1, maybe I need to re-think things and wait awhile until I can afford a 9.2 AVR, which will allow for 5.1.2.

Thoughts?

I’m about to do ceiling Atmos as well w/front wide. FYI: I had reflective atmos speakers and I didn’t care for them. I have heard ceiling Atmos and it was worth it I feel, especially if I can replicate that experience. Good luck. A schematic of the room would be helpful for feed back though.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

One of the problems is that your surrounds are too high to work correctly with atmos. The surrounds should only be 1.25 times the height of the mains, and also at least 3’ of difference in height between the surrounds and atmos speakers. If you can get the surrounds down around ear height(40-50”) it will be much more successful.(if not, then I might not bother. I agree with the advisor that 5.1.2 will be better than 7.1, but keep in mind nobody can guarantee anything in the way of your satisfaction. I disagree that you’ll only have to add the 2 atmos speakers since one of the reasons it works is the differential in height. Unfortunately you’ll have to be the judge of that. Also, as far as 7ch anything, atmos or otherwise, you’ll need room behind the LP for that to work. Can’t tell for sure, but it looks like you have some options. Curious how you like the polks for mains? I have a pair in one of my rooms.

 

[5arnolds]

One of the problems is that your surrounds are too high to work correctly with atmos. The surrounds should only be 1.25 times the height of the mains, and also at least 3’ of difference in height between the surrounds and atmos speakers. If you can get the surrounds down around ear height(40-50”) it will be much more successful.(if not, then I might not bother. I agree with the advisor that 5.1.2 will be better than 7.1, but keep in mind nobody can guarantee anything in the way of your satisfaction. I disagree that you’ll only have to add the 2 atmos speakers since one of the reasons it works is the differential in height. Unfortunately you’ll have to be the judge of that. Also, as far as 7ch anything, atmos or otherwise, you’ll need room behind the LP for that to work. Can’t tell for sure, but it looks like you have some options. Curious how you like the polks for mains? I have a pair in one of my rooms.

Thanks for the input. Since my Polk mains are the only ones I've used since setting up 5.1, I have nothing to compare them to, but for what it's worth, I am very happy with them. I realize most folks use larger towers, and I am probably sacrificing some improved sound for the sake of more space/less clutter, but I've been happy with them.

As far as the current surrounds I have (near the ceiling), I don't believe I have many options to move them down closer to ear level unless I run wire and put some speakers on stands, which I don't want to do (it's an L-shaped couch), but despite their height, I hear plenty of surround from them since they are angled down toward the listening area, so it's just the way they will have to be. The side walls in my basement aren't an option either for in-wall surrounds.

I have been giving allot more thought about what receiver I should go with. Assuming I'll be holding onto it for many years like I have with my current receiver, I'm now thinking I should make the big jump and go to an 11.2 receiver. When I look at the Dolby-recommended layout below for Atmos 7.1.4 (that would be my ultimate build-out), I could phase the build-out by adding speakers in the following order...

Step 1 - Add rear surrounds to make it a 7.1 system.

Step 2 - Add the left and right top front overhead Atmos speakers to make it a 7.1.2. I recognize 7.1.2 and 7.1.4 speaker placement recommendations are not the same, but I would place them according to the recommended 7.1.4 layout knowing it will eventually be a 7.1.4 system.

Step 3 - Add the left and right top rear overhead Atmos speakers to make it a 7.1.4

I would probably use in-ceiling speakers for the rear surrounds (Step 1) and the rear overhead Atmos (Step 3) I would install both sets in the soffit that you see directly behind the couch (see pic in original post).

What I am seeing/reading from blogs and Youtube videos is, although we all want our speakers to be in the Dolby-recommended positions, there is SOME forgiveness.

Maybe with my basement layout not being ideal, especially the area behind the couch, I should just consider a 9.2 system (i.e. 5.1.2 atmos)?

I'd be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on this.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Not sure if that image is from this guide but it’s worth reading.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf
If you can match the layout as seen from above, that’s half the battle. You are right, there is some forgiveness in placement, but the problem is atmos isn’t just sounds over your head. The 3d sound comes from the interplay between the speakers above, and at ear level. It’s the same way you get a phantom Center image with stereo. If they’re all on the same horizontal plane, you won’t get atmos, you’ll just get a bunch of sound overhead.

The top image here shows the guidelines to calculate from. Here is where there’s room to play with horizontally , but definitely not vertically. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to pee in your Cheerios. I’d just hate to see you spend a bunch of money for little to no improvement, and IMO it’s a disservice for anyone to tell you putting all speakers at ceiling height will work for atmos. If you really don’t want to bring your surrounds down, I would consider 2 atmos in front or a pair of prime elevation speakers in front and upgrade mains.

 

[Mitchibo]

Not sure if that image is from this guide but it’s worth reading.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf
If you can match the layout as seen from above, that’s half the battle. You are right, there is some forgiveness in placement, but the problem is atmos isn’t just sounds over your head. The 3d sound comes from the interplay between the speakers above, and at ear level. It’s the same way you get a phantom Center image with stereo. If they’re all on the same horizontal plane, you won’t get atmos, you’ll just get a bunch of sound overhead.

The top image here shows the guidelines to calculate from. Here is where there’s room to play with horizontally , but definitely not vertically. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to pee in your Cheerios. I’d just hate to see you spend a bunch of money for little to no improvement, and IMO it’s a disservice for anyone to tell you putting all speakers at ceiling height will work for atmos. If you really don’t want to bring your surrounds down, I would consider 2 atmos in front or a pair of prime elevation speakers in front and upgrade mains.

Not my thread but hopefully this is relevant. I’m getting rid of my Atmos bouncey speakers (4) and replacing them with 2 in ceiling speakers. I have zero room for “back” surrounds, just regular surrounds offset about -10 degrees from my MLP. I have 2 bookshelves speakers that I want to continue to use as “wide”, but after looking in the setup diagrams in the Denon, I haven’t found an amp assign configuration that would allow for wides w/o rear surrounds. I can manage to hook it all up and get a signal in accordance with my liking but...if I don’t have any rears’ amp assigned where then does that signal go? Does the Denon just default my desired arrangement back to 5.1?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Not my thread but hopefully this is relevant. I’m getting rid of my Atmos bouncey speakers (4) and replacing them with 2 in ceiling speakers. I have zero room for “back” surrounds, just regular surrounds offset about -10 degrees from my MLP. I have 2 bookshelves speakers that I want to continue to use as “wide”, but after looking in the setup diagrams in the Denon, I haven’t found an amp assign configuration that would allow for wides w/o rear surrounds. I can manage to hook it all up and get a signal in accordance with my liking but...if I don’t have any rears’ amp assigned where then does that signal go? Does the Denon just default my desired arrangement back to 5.1?

Which Denon do you have? I will surely try to find an answer for you.

 

[Mitchibo]

Which Denon do you have? I will surely try to find an answer for you.

Denon AVR-X5200W. Did you understand my question? I hope that it was clear and not convoluted.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Denon AVR-X5200W. Did you understand my question? I hope that it was clear and not convoluted.

Hey mitchibo. I believe I understood the question. Iirc, Yamaha avr’s never supported atmos+wides, and somewhere down the line Denon and marantz both followed suit. So far looks like you need Audyssey dsx, or dts nueral X since dsu doesn’t support wides, and there is no commercial content with wide info. Oh yeah, here’s a fun read for ya if you haven’t seen it. Maybe some insight.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w
Still lookin...

 

[5arnolds]

Not sure if that image is from this guide but it’s worth reading.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf
If you can match the layout as seen from above, that’s half the battle. You are right, there is some forgiveness in placement, but the problem is atmos isn’t just sounds over your head. The 3d sound comes from the interplay between the speakers above, and at ear level. It’s the same way you get a phantom Center image with stereo. If they’re all on the same horizontal plane, you won’t get atmos, you’ll just get a bunch of sound overhead.

The top image here shows the guidelines to calculate from. Here is where there’s room to play with horizontally , but definitely not vertically. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to pee in your Cheerios. I’d just hate to see you spend a bunch of money for little to no improvement, and IMO it’s a disservice for anyone to tell you putting all speakers at ceiling height will work for atmos. If you really don’t want to bring your surrounds down, I would consider 2 atmos in front or a pair of prime elevation speakers in front and upgrade mains.

I've given it allot of thought to what you said combined with some other conversations I've had with friends and I made the decision to pull the reigns back. As I stated in my initial post, what I have now sounds really good to me and others that have experienced it. Today I ordered the Denon AVR-X2300W from Crutchfield. For the price point of $450, I think it has allot of great features and gets very good reviews.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Mitchibo]

Hey mitchibo. I believe I understood the question. Iirc, Yamaha avr’s never supported atmos+wides, and somewhere down the line Denon and marantz both followed suit. So far looks like you need Audyssey dsx, or dts nueral X since dsu doesn’t support wides, and there is no commercial content with wide info. Oh yeah, here’s a fun read for ya if you haven’t seen it. Maybe some insight.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w
Still lookin...

I have read this before and yes, this Denon is confusing. I’m glad I wasn’t the only one scratching my head on amp assignment issues. Thanks for the advice.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I've given it allot of thought to what you said combined with some other conversations I've had with friends and I made the decision to pull the reigns back. As I stated in my initial post, what I have now sounds really good to me and others that have experienced it. Today I ordered the Denon AVR-X2300W from Crutchfield. For the price point of $450, I think it has allot of great features and gets very good reviews.

Thanks for your input.

Pulling back can be extremely difficult. Especially when you’ve sold yourself on the idea. Been there, done that... And who knows what the future will bring? Maybe a new place, or room orientation will be a possibility in the future and you could do atmos then. Having a system that you currently enjoy helps for sure. Good luck!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I have read this before and yes, this Denon is confusing. I’m glad I wasn’t the only one scratching my head on amp assignment issues. Thanks for the advice.

Hey Mitch, I still don’t have anything useful to help you except maybe go through the 4000+ page atmos thread on avs. There’s a lot of sorting, and wading through crap but you might find what you need. The best I’ve found about wides is run two receivers together in a 9.2.6 configuration. Yeah right. I’ll slam my head in a door first thanks...

 

[Mitchibo]

Hey Mitch, I still don’t have anything useful to help you except maybe go through the 4000+ page atmos thread on avs. There’s a lot of sorting, and wading through crap but you might find what you need. The best I’ve found about wides is run two receivers together in a 9.2.6 configuration. Yeah right. I’ll slam my head in a door first thanks...

As mentioned before, I have virtually no room behind me for the Lt and Rt “rear” surrounds. I am using klipsch di-poles as the regular surrounds and ideally I’d use wide speakers too. Then moving forward, front L,R,C, normal setup.
I called Denon and the tech suggested I use my current di-pole surrounds as “back” surrounds, the wides as “regular” surrounds and then add my 2 ceiling Atmos making it a 7.4.2 (I have 4 subs). Or I think I can also go 9.4 with the same result. Denon made this unit as chickin’-flippin’ confusing as possible.