Rega Brio not providing ample low end bass

[mark_in_gr]

I recently purchased a complete audiophile system consisting of all new components: A Rega Brio(the new 49watt version), and Rega P1 turntable, and Rega R3 speakers.

I purchased the P1 first, and had it connected to an older Sony home theater receiver through a cheap RCA phone amp. The Brio was purchased second, followed by the R3s.

When I replaced the Sony receiver w/the Brio, I immediately noticed a warmer sound in the mids and high ranges(better clarity of cymbals, vocals), but a noticeable drop off in the lower bass levels. Initially I was running this into Bose 301 speakers. Since then, I have added the Rega R3s to the mix, and although there is a wee bit more low end bass, it is still lacking compared to what I am used to hearing using an EQ on lower end non-audiophile systems.

My main question is . . . is this just something that audiophiles accept as a correct representation of the music, righting off the more boomy or low end bass as not being truly musical and a product of fudging the EQ settings?

I really love the Brio, but it just sounds a bit flat and lacking in the low end, and to me, that is fundamental to a great sound stage.

Any advices is greatly appreciated!

 

[Lordoftherings]

You need a subwoofer.

Hi Mark, and Welcome to Audioholics.

First, your Rega system is not an audiophile system, it is an audioholics system.

And God thanks, you finally replaced that Sony receiver.
And those Bose speakers too.

Now, the Rega Brio integrated amp (40 watts per channel into 8 ohms) is not the most powerful or best amp around.

Also, your Rega R3 speakers with a small woofer size of only 5", and an unspecified minus db at 60hz, is not a bass performing speaker, that's for sure.

#1. May I suggest that you mate your speakers with a sub, like an SVS SB12-Plus (sealed sub) for $649 with an internal Bash amp rated at 425 watts.
* Here: http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm

#2. Or, if it's too much money, the SVS PB10-NSD (co-located ported sub) is only $429 when on sale, and comes with an internal Bash amplifier rated at 300 watts.
* Here: http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm

Any of these two subwoofers will restore the bass that you are so missing.
But the #1 option is a more musical one (for music listening), because of it's sealed design.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Davemcc]

What you are hearing is the representation of the music through those speakers. Every speaker has a distinct sound or tone, that appeals to some and may or may not appeal to others. It's not necessarily a sound that audiophiles accept rather than a sound that Rega owners prefer. If you bought the Regas without an audition expecting that there was some type of universally accepted and generalized sound amongst high end speakers, I'm sorry to end that disillusionment. There is no such common standard or acceptance.

I've had the chance to listen to the Rega R1 and found some similarity to your situation. Although the R1 are the bookshelf design, it doesn't surprise me that some of the characteristics are the same if they were tuned by the same designer with the same goals in mind. Here are my comments on the R1.

"The Rega were decent, much lighter than the Focals and with much less bass. I'm not sure whether to describe them as airy or thin. We put them in the mix a couple of times to compare but they really had some trouble filling the room with sound. They would be good for somebody looking for that particular sound, i.e. light and detailed without a ton of bass."

They were quite different from the other speakers in their price range and class. If you find that the sound of the Rega is not to your taste, it's time to start shopping for some new speakers with the characteristics you prefer. The Rega electronics are likely very neutral so I would be looking at the speakers for an upgrade in sound preference.

 

[Lordoftherings]

^ Dave, one of my hero.

^ +1 Quite a valid point.

 

[mark_in_gr]

Thanks Guys. The sub idea is one I have been kicking around, but was hoping to get along w/o that seeing the dealer which sold me the complete Rega System stated that the R3s would provide enough low end w/o the need for a sub.

The R3s sound better than the 301s, w/a bit more low end and way better mid s and highs. And the main reason I did not really strongly consider other speakers is because of all the reviews I read stating that combining the Rega P1, Brio and R3s was such a great combination; i.e., the Rega components were really made to work well together and sounded best when coupled together.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... the dealer which sold me the complete Rega System stated that the R3s would provide enough low end w/o the need for a sub.
....

Yep, it may be enough for him but not to many others
Did you listen to them there? If yes, how was the low end?

 

[Lordoftherings]

SUBstantial recommendation.

That's true Mark, the dealer where your purchased your Rega system was not very forhcoming with you.

Now you just need to add a nice musical sub to your system, a sealed one would be best, like the #1 option that I recommended you in my prior post.
Or even a sealed one with a 10" driver from a reputable manufacturer would do just fine.
HSU Research make some nice ones, the VTF-1 with a 10" driver (vented, but you can block the vented port with an included foam port blocker).
It retails for only $449, but I'm sure you can get is for less. And it has bass extension down to 22hz.
There is also the STF-2, also with a 10" driver for even cheaper, $349 list.
Paradigm make also some nice ones very affordable. And also PSB.
And Velodyne, also very affordable ones. These are all good reputable companies that make excellent subs at all price points.

Have a SUBlime weekend,

Bob

 

[Davemcc]

And the main reason I did not really strongly consider other speakers is because of all the reviews I read stating that combining the Rega P1, Brio and R3s was such a great combination; i.e., the Rega components were really made to work well together and sounded best when coupled together.

To me, that just sounds like a load of malarky. A speaker's sound is built in with the choice of drivers, cabinet construction and crossover design. It's hard-wired, if you will. The choice of components should not affect the sound and even for those with "golden ears", any noticeable change should be insignificant. I doubt you would hear any difference if you chose to run those speakers with Krell, Musical Fidelity or Simaudio equipment. AFAIK, the Rega equipment is pretty good at passing along a pure audio signal, just as all the above mentioned companies' components are. They should be feeding the speakers the exact same signal to process, thus making a lie out of any claims to synergy between same manufacturer components. Or to put it another way, Rega components will not make Rega speakers sound better than other comparable equipment.

If you are unhappy with the sound, look to getting a sub to fill the bottom end or if that is unacceptable, start auditioning other speakers that are more suitable for your taste.

 

[mark_in_gr]

I am not really worried about getting this resolved as the dealer seems very cool and claims that he won't allow me to be dis-satisfied. I just find it odd that many of the speakers that I have auditioned in the R3 price range seem a bit lackluster on the low end. And when I hear audiophiles and dealers state that "this is the just the true representation of the music, or the amp being musical", that does not make a lot of sense to me considering that when one attends a live performance, the sound is usually more balanced and the bass aspect is much more pronounced.

Perhaps that is due to the greater level of volume. Being a musician, I totally understand the concept of the musician or studio engineer attempting to tweak and arrive at the holy grail of tone . . . and the amp/speakers responsibility is to represent the original intention of that recording w/minimal distortion or alteration of the sound. But I have a hard time believing that a lot of the reproductions I am hearing both from the 301s and the R3s are what the recording engineer would have intended.

 

[Lordoftherings]

I am not really worried about getting this resolved as the dealer seems very cool and claims that he won't allow me to be dis-satisfied. I just find it odd that many of the speakers that I have auditioned in the R3 price range seem a bit lackluster on the low end. And when I hear audiophiles and dealers state that "this is the just the true representation of the music, or the amp being musical", that does not make a lot of sense to me considering that when one attends a live performance, the sound is usually more balanced and the bass aspect is much more pronounced.

Perhaps that is due to the greater level of volume. Being a musician, I totally understand the concept of the musician or studio engineer attempting to tweak and arrive at the holy grail of tone . . . and the amp/speakers responsibility is to represent the original intention of that recording w/minimal distortion or alteration of the sound. But I have a hard time believing that a lot of the reproductions I am hearing both from the 301s and the R3s are what the recording engineer would have intended.

Hey Mark, I'm also a musician (for over 40 years), and I can assure you that your Rega speakers are incomplete in the bass department, period. Get a sub. You need to restore what you're missing.

Regards,

Bob

 

[TLS Guy]

I recently purchased a complete audiophile system consisting of all new components: A Rega Brio(the new 49watt version), and Rega P1 turntable, and Rega R3 speakers.

I purchased the P1 first, and had it connected to an older Sony home theater receiver through a cheap RCA phone amp. The Brio was purchased second, followed by the R3s.

When I replaced the Sony receiver w/the Brio, I immediately noticed a warmer sound in the mids and high ranges(better clarity of cymbals, vocals), but a noticeable drop off in the lower bass levels. Initially I was running this into Bose 301 speakers. Since then, I have added the Rega R3s to the mix, and although there is a wee bit more low end bass, it is still lacking compared to what I am used to hearing using an EQ on lower end non-audiophile systems.

My main question is . . . is this just something that audiophiles accept as a correct representation of the music, righting off the more boomy or low end bass as not being truly musical and a product of fudging the EQ settings?

I really love the Brio, but it just sounds a bit flat and lacking in the low end, and to me, that is fundamental to a great sound stage.

Any advices is greatly appreciated!

I suspect your speaker lacks at least the last octave and a half of the musical range. However when a speaker sounds like you describe, the problem is usually insufficient of no diffraction loss compensation.

If you want a nice set of British speakers, I would especially encourage to audition the Spendor range. I auditioned them recently and they had a a well balanced sound, that was no weak in the tenor range. B & W are well worth a listen. I have been very disappointed with the KEF offerings lately.

Honestly, Rega only provide rudimentary specifications, which is not acceptable. I could find no independent measurements. However the design concept of those speaker looks like a mess. The bass/mid crossover appears to be acoustic. This, though difficult can be achieved, but not if you put the bass driver on the side of the box! I would anticipate a lumpy bumpy response from those speakers, and a lot of driver interference. First looks of that speaker do not look promising, so I doubt your ears are deceiving you.

 

[Davemcc]

I am not really worried about getting this resolved as the dealer seems very cool and claims that he won't allow me to be dis-satisfied.

What other brands/models of speaker does your dealer carry? It may just be my humble opinion, but in a stereo system designed primarily for music, two full range tower speakers is the ideal combination and should be able to provide as much bass and midrange detail as you like. Really, I'm a big fan of the sub/sat systems but I'm forced into that situation by the nature of my room. If you can fit two towers in the room, that will be a better solution for music listening than adding a subwoofer, which brings it's own set of complexities and problems to the situation.

When it comes to speakers, let your own ears be the sole arbiter of what is faithful, accurate and right to your ear. If you think the R3's are light in the bass department, then the R3's are light in the bass department. Don't let other people's opinions or biases tell you how music is supposed to sound...to you. Your dealer want's you to be happy...fair enough. Take the R3's back and start looking at other speakers using only your own ears to guide your decision making process and become deaf to such jingoistic lines as "amps being musical".

Other speakers in that general price range that you can listen to are the B&W 600 series, Focal.JMLabs Chorus series or Dynaudio Excite. You could even go slumming with some Paradigms or DefTechs. There are eleventy-billion options of speakers out there and one or another is bound to elicit some passion, excitement or speaker-lust for you. The Rega obviously do not do that for you. It's time to move on and let your own ears do some speaker shopping for you.

 

[mark_in_gr]

I suspect your speaker lacks at least the last octave and a half of the musical range. However when a speaker sounds like you describe, the problem is usually insufficient of no diffraction loss compensation.

If you want a nice set of British speakers, I would especially encourage to audition the Spendor range. I auditioned them recently and they had a a well balanced sound, that was no weak in the tenor range. B & W are well worth a listen. I have been very disappointed with the KEF offerings lately.

Honestly, Rega only provide rudimentary specifications, which is not acceptable. I could find no independent measurements. However the design concept of those speaker looks like a mess. The bass/mid crossover appears to be acoustic. This, though difficult can be achieved, but not if you put the bass driver on the side of the box! I would anticipate a lumpy bumpy response from those speakers, and a lot of driver interference. First looks of that speaker do not look promising, so I doubt your ears are deceiving you.

Very interesting . . . and a bit perplexing considering the numerous positive reviews from users I have read on the web regarding the R3s. Many prefer them over the R5s. I did consider B&W, but was not able to find a dealer locally and I did hear some negative things about them as well. I did not listen to them, however. I got a good deal on the R3s, paying only $600. What would a comparable pair of B&W floorstanders run me?

 

[mark_in_gr]

What other brands/models of speaker does your dealer carry? It may just be my humble opinion, but in a stereo system designed primarily for music, two full range tower speakers is the ideal combination and should be able to provide as much bass and midrange detail as you like. Really, I'm a big fan of the sub/sat systems but I'm forced into that situation by the nature of my room. If you can fit two towers in the room, that will be a better solution for music listening than adding a subwoofer, which brings it's own set of complexities and problems to the situation.

When it comes to speakers, let your own ears be the sole arbiter of what is faithful, accurate and right to your ear. If you think the R3's are light in the bass department, then the R3's are light in the bass department. Don't let other people's opinions or biases tell you how music is supposed to sound...to you. Your dealer want's you to be happy...fair enough. Take the R3's back and start looking at other speakers using only your own ears to guide your decision making process and become deaf to such jingoistic lines as "amps being musical".

Other speakers in that general price range that you can listen to are the B&W 600 series, Focal.JMLabs Chorus series or Dynaudio Excite. You could even go slumming with some Paradigms or DefTechs. There are eleventy-billion options of speakers out there and one or another is bound to elicit some passion, excitement or speaker-lust for you. The Rega obviously do not do that for you. It's time to move on and let your own ears do some speaker shopping for you.

Thanks Dave, very sound advice. The dealer also carries these speaker brands:

Anthony Gallo Acoustics
Monitor Audio
Canton
Boston Acoustics
Mirage
Jamo
PMC

 

[mark_in_gr]

What about cables/interconnects? I am using the standard interconnect from my P1 to the Brio, and Monster Cable XP for speaker cable. The runs are a bit long for the speaker cable. Would the run length and/or the Monster Cable affect the low end that much? Would it be worth investing in something like the Rega SC42 cable?

 

[djreef]

Hey Mark, I'm also a musician (for over 40 years), and I can assure you that your Rega speakers are incomplete in the bass department, period. Get a sub. You need to restore what you're missing.

Regards,

Bob

Yea, what Bob said.

DJ

 

[Lordoftherings]

Yea, what Bob said.

DJ

Hi ha. TY

 

[Davemcc]

Would it be worth investing in something like the Rega SC42 cable?

Oh God No. There is no value there whatsoever.

 

[mark_in_gr]

Oh God No. There is no value there whatsoever.

So I would hear no discernable difference between the Monster XP cable and the SC42 Rega Cables?

I placed my Rega R3s in a different room, actually larger, last night. They are about 7 feet apart w/the woofers pointing inward, and the sound is actually pretty good. Granted, they are not overpowering in the bass dept, but they seem to be a little better than before listening to various rock selections.

My wife did comment that they just don't have the "big" sound she has heard in other systems in years past. What do you know about the other speakers I mentioned that my dealer offers? Do I have to break the bank to get a huge speaker when using a straight amp w/no eqing?

 

[mark_in_gr]

I suspect your speaker lacks at least the last octave and a half of the musical range. However when a speaker sounds like you describe, the problem is usually insufficient of no diffraction loss compensation.

If you want a nice set of British speakers, I would especially encourage to audition the Spendor range. I auditioned them recently and they had a a well balanced sound, that was no weak in the tenor range. B & W are well worth a listen. I have been very disappointed with the KEF offerings lately.

Honestly, Rega only provide rudimentary specifications, which is not acceptable. I could find no independent measurements. However the design concept of those speaker looks like a mess. The bass/mid crossover appears to be acoustic. This, though difficult can be achieved, but not if you put the bass driver on the side of the box! I would anticipate a lumpy bumpy response from those speakers, and a lot of driver interference. First looks of that speaker do not look promising, so I doubt your ears are deceiving you.

Actually the bass is anything but lumpy(as I understand the term in the context of sound reproduction), but rather very tight and refined. But in certain cases, rock music in particular, I have noticed that the bass guitar is quite pronounced on some notes of a scale, and then appears to be gone altogether, almost like someone unplugged the bassist from the mix for those certain notes.

Maybe it's just my delicate ear, I don't know. I am beginning to warm up the the round of the R3s, however. The mids and highs are some of the best I have ever heard from a speaker their size.