Recommendation for Av receiver

[zumbo]

Okay I think understand what you are saying, that if a receiver can handle a 4 ohm load that it will be able to handle any speaker without so much as breaking a sweat.

No. I am saying that if a receiver has printed it can't handle a 4ohm load, it is going to break a sweat.

My Adcom 7605 will handle a 4ohm load. It sweats.

 

[Ares]

Okay I see what you are saying, I went to check out their manual it says
Guaranteed Speaker Impedance 16 ohm to 8 ohm setting required for 8 to 6 ohm

 

[zumbo]

Okay I see what you are saying, I went to check out their manual it says
Guaranteed Speaker Impedance 16 ohm to 8 ohm setting required for 8 to 6 ohm

Now, shop for some 16ohm speakers.

I stick with Yamaha and Denon. Usually end-up with Yamaha for the deals such as I have recommended for you. A 1800 dollar receiver for 1200 with warranty from an authorized dealer. No brainer.

 

[Ares]

Thanks for the info it's good to know before hand.

 

[zumbo]

Thanks for the info it's good to know before hand.

There is nothing worse than spending big bucks for a system, and then it coming-up short. An $800 MSRP receiver won't cut the mustard. Been there. Done that.

 

[Ares]

So your advice is to stay away from Pioneer period.

 

[zumbo]

So your advice is to stay away from Pioneer period.

My advice is that respected receiver brands with class a/b amp sections will be pretty equal so long as the specs are equal. This may mean doing in depth spec checking such as you have done. Some fudge specs more than others.

Of the mainstream brands, I prefer Denon and Yamaha. I don't pay MSRP. If I did, I would buy Rotel. There are super premium brands, but you get into values at which I don't have the wallet for.

http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/index.htm?cat=24

 

[Ares]

My advice is that respected receiver brands with class a/b amp sections will be pretty equal so long as the specs are equal. This may mean doing in depth spec checking such as you have done. Some fudge specs more than others.

Of the mainstream brands, I prefer Denon and Yamaha. I don't pay MSRP. If I did, I would buy Rotel. There are super premium brands, but you get into values at which I don't have the wallet for.

http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/index.htm?cat=24

I check out the Rotel link and here we go again the power consumption spec is almost the same as the Pioneer, Pioneer 400w and the Rotel 450w and the output to the speakers also pretty close Pioneer 110wpcx7, Rotel 100wpcx7 @8ohm. Man maybe I am reading to much into specs for my own good.

 

[zumbo]

I check out the Rotel link and here we go again the power consumption spec is almost the same as the Pioneer, Pioneer 400w and the Rotel 450w and the output to the speakers also pretty close Pioneer 110wpcx7, Rotel 100wpcx7 @8ohm. Man maybe I am reading to much into specs for my own good.

You are. The Rotel 1560 will do 100 x 7 @ 8ohms, and 200 x 7 @ 4ohms. It has an MSRP of $2599

The 1550 is 75 x 5 @ 8ohms, and has a PC of 450 as well. $1999 MSRP.

 

[zumbo]

Downloaded the manual for the 3900. Shows 140W. Power consumption is 500W.

 

[nmprice]

Vsx-21txh

Pioneer makes many car in dash receivers which run 4 ohm speakers so I don't think they are a slouch in amplification for 4 ohm loads. I've been using their in dash for several years now, mostly with their built in amplifier.
I also own the VSX-21TXH and its connected to a 40" LCD, inputs from Pio BDP-51FD and Pio DV-610AV (SACD+DVD-A duties) and, pushing PSB B6 speakers (6 Ohm Mains) and Klipsch (for now) center + surrounds. I have had absolute no issues with this receiver for home theater duties. As for music listening, it was a nice surprise to learn that it accepts DSD signals from the SACD player which it decodes.
As for 4 Ohms stability, I would imagine that a 4 ohm speaker fluctuates all the way to 1 Ohm and that type of stability would require an amplifier of a much higher price range. My conclusion would be that the VSX-21TXH is 4 Ohm stable but to keep your warranty they suggest 6 Ohms as the minimum. Besides, from what I see of the market most speakers are at least 6 Ohms.
Another point, the VSX-21TXH does have 5 pre-outs for additional amplifiers. My only gripe is that this receiver may not be up to the audiophile quality for which I am heading.

 

[zumbo]

Typically, car audio is 4ohm. Home audio is 8ohm.

My JL slash car amps are 1.5ohm stable. Stability is the key.

Many car amps are 4ohm, and are not even stable @ 2ohm.

I would never rely on receiver power in a car, and I don't in my HT.

 

[nmprice]

Typically, car audio is 4ohm. Home audio is 8ohm.

My JL slash car amps are 1.5ohm stable. Stability is the key.

Mast car amps are 4ohm, and are not even stable @ 2ohm.

And whats the cost of your JL Audio car amps? I dont think its logical to link Ohm stability with quality. Yes these amps are more robust but that feature is geared for user flexibility with speaker set up. For example, 2 X 4 Ohm speakers in parallel and you do pay the price for that flexibility. But hey if you think you need a tank to drive to work then go right ahead.

 

[zumbo]

I dont think its logical to link Ohm stability with quality.

Well, I will completely disagree. Not only is ohm stability a true sign of quality, how an amp reacts to lower impedance is a further sign.

For example, my Adcom is 125 x 5 @ 8ohm. It is 175 x 5 @ 4ohm.

A premium/super premium amp would double down which would command a higher retail.

 

[nmprice]

Well, I will completely disagree. Not only is ohm stability a true sign of quality, how an amp reacts to lower impedance is a further sign.

For example, my Adcom is 125 x 5 @ 8ohm. It is 175 x 5 @ 4ohm.

A premium/super premium amp would double down which would command a higher retail.

So all 4 Ohm stable AV receivers have superior linear frequency response when compared to 6 Ohm stable receivers? So what quality are you speaking of when most likely the guy will be using at least 6 Ohm speakers?

 

[Tungsten06GT]

Thank you Adam for the response, I am not trying to say that Pioneer is not telling the truth just not the whole truth, to me if you make a claim such as 110wpcx7 which is a total of 770watts output lets not forget they said continuous and yet their receiver and manual states power consumption is 400watts the math does not seem right. Let say the 400w is not the max then what is it? is it 800? if they gave the max number then I would say hey then it's possible to achieve the 110wpcx7,but with a number of 400w it raises doubt in which they are doing a disservice to themselves,now to anyone who thinks I'm doing this be because I dislike Pioneer this not the case I am heartbroken this was the receiver I had my heart set on. but when a question like this gets asked there are 2 things you can do 1-ignore it or 2- research it,I choose the latter and got disappointed. Better now than after I buy it.

Ares,

I come from a power electronics background and I'm pretty sure what all receiver manufacturers are doing is just simple power conversion. The power coming from the wall may only be 400 watts, but that doesn't mean the max output of the receiver is 400 watts, hence the amplification. Depending on how the power is manipulated through either resistance or current, Pioneer is more than likely being legit with their ratings. That's the point of power conversion is being able to take one source and "convert" it to something else through amplification. And since the main source is coming from the wall, current draw isn't really an issue (well as opposed to a battery).

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong with my analysis, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

I actually do have the Pioneer vsx 21txh as it was strongly recommended by many members on this site. I actually have yet to use it though since the speakers I ordered are on backorder, but based upon my research this receiver was going to get the job done (for someone looking for higher quality sound without breaking the bank). Especially since it's from their Elite series; that stuff's legit

 

[lsiberian]

Pioneer makes many car in dash receivers which run 4 ohm speakers so I don't think they are a slouch in amplification for 4 ohm loads. I've been using their in dash for several years now, mostly with their built in amplifier.
I also own the VSX-21TXH and its connected to a 40" LCD, inputs from Pio BDP-51FD and Pio DV-610AV (SACD+DVD-A duties) and, pushing PSB B6 speakers (6 Ohm Mains) and Klipsch (for now) center + surrounds. I have had absolute no issues with this receiver for home theater duties. As for music listening, it was a nice surprise to learn that it accepts DSD signals from the SACD player which it decodes.
As for 4 Ohms stability, I would imagine that a 4 ohm speaker fluctuates all the way to 1 Ohm and that type of stability would require an amplifier of a much higher price range. My conclusion would be that the VSX-21TXH is 4 Ohm stable but to keep your warranty they suggest 6 Ohms as the minimum. Besides, from what I see of the market most speakers are at least 6 Ohms.
Another point, the VSX-21TXH does have 5 pre-outs for additional amplifiers. My only gripe is that this receiver may not be up to the audiophile quality for which I am heading.

1 ohm? I've never seen even a sub dip that low in home theater designs. Most audio amplifiers can deliver a 4-ohm load just fine. If the receiver can't don't buy it. Amps are cheap components which makes it frustrating to see such missing compliance. This is a budget receiver so I wouldn't expect the kitchen sink. But speakers matter far more so put your money in that portion.

 

[nmprice]

1 ohm? I've never seen even a sub dip that low in home theater designs. Most audio amplifiers can deliver a 4-ohm load just fine. If the receiver can't don't buy it. Amps are cheap components which makes it frustrating to see such missing compliance. This is a budget receiver so I wouldn't expect the kitchen sink. But speakers matter far more so put your money in that portion.

Saying 1 Ohm was to illustrate a point that speakers with a nominal of 4 Ohms fluctuate to low loads. And why all the emphasis on 4 Ohms are you all trying to tell me that because this Pioneer is not 4 Ohm stable and I use it at 6 Ohms (within spec) its going to break faster than a 4 ohm stable amp? I own a cheap Kenwood receiver that is not 4 Ohm stable and it is still working even after 7 years. I guess that receiver was a fluke.

 

[Ares]

Ares,

I come from a power electronics background and I'm pretty sure what all receiver manufacturers are doing is just simple power conversion. The power coming from the wall may only be 400 watts, but that doesn't mean the max output of the receiver is 400 watts, hence the amplification. Depending on how the power is manipulated through either resistance or current, Pioneer is more than likely being legit with their ratings. That's the point of power conversion is being able to take one source and "convert" it to something else through amplification. And since the main source is coming from the wall, current draw isn't really an issue (well as opposed to a battery).

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong with my analysis, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

I actually do have the Pioneer vsx 21txh as it was strongly recommended by many members on this site. I actually have yet to use it though since the speakers I ordered are on backorder, but based upon my research this receiver was going to get the job done (for someone looking for higher quality sound without breaking the bank). Especially since it's from their Elite series; that stuff's legit

Man I step away for awhile I miss all the action, thank you for the explanation. when I started this thread I thought I'll get some advice and it would be easy, Then someone says look at the Pioneer and I said I'll pass on them. Then out of no where Adam(that's right Adam you started all this and made this process harder, Just Playin) asked a simple question I gave a simple answer it took off from there. I will say this it is great to get input form all who have posted and those who will post.(side note I'm no closer to my goal then before but this journey has been informative) I am still seeking more Pioneer owners of the 21 or 23 to share their knowledge.