Reciever info needed!

[Scotthg1]

I am wondering about what recievers do what best. I'm looking for music first with a warm sound and then home Theater. I've looked through the threads and correct me if I'm wrong.

Yamaha=Bright sound.
Denon=Warm sound.
Onkyo=?
Rotel=?
Harmon Kardon=?
Marantz=Warm sound. Better for music
NAD=Geared more toward music.

If I've left any other reciever out feel free to let me know. I was thinking of the Marantz but I am open to suggestions. I am looking to spend $450.00 or less.

Thanks Scott.

 

[gregz]

I'm one of the non-believers who can't hear the difference in sound between two comparable receivers.

Speakers, definitely. Receivers? No.

I like the brands you've listed. Which receiver has the best feature set for you? That's what I'd go by.

 

[crashguy]

I couldn't agree with gregz more.

Price, features, power, and quality - that's what you should be looking for in a receiver.

 

[rschleicher]

I disagree a little bit with the above posts. I can hear sonic differences between receivers, although I would agree that they are VERY slight, compared to the differences between speakers.

In particular, I do hear the difference between Yamaha and Denon receivers, usually expressed as the Yamaha being a bit brighter, and the Denon being warmer. To be able to hear this, I had to be able to do rapid A/B switching between the two receivers, driving the same set of speakers, after equalizing the volume. Even then it was slight, and probably "correctable" with a small tone-control adjustment. However, since today's receivers and amps all seem to have very flat frequency response out to very high frequencies, it's probably not really frequency response that explains the different sound. Maybe it has to do with phase response.

I found that I preferred the Denon with bright-sounding speakers, and the Yamaha with warmer speakers, presumably because the receiver was doing some amount of compensating for the speaker. My last two receivers have been Yamahas, and I've been happy with both. But, I would also have been very happy with the corresponding Denon models. Since both brands have some form of "direct" stereo mode, with most of the digital signal processing turned off or bypassed, it is possible to listen for the sound of the amplifiers themselves.

As an aside, I don't think either of my recentt Yamaha receivers sounds as good as the old Kenwood 2-ch. integrated amp I bought in 1977. This was a tank, considering its modest 60 Wpc, and it had a separate power supply for each channel (dual-mono design).

 

[sjdgpt]

Is there a sound difference?

You bet.

Ooops, no their isn't.

Yes there is.

No there isn't.



What is the "right" answer?

There is a sound difference, but whether you can hear that difference is an entirely different matter, AND what you are actually hearing may not be an actual difference in the equipment, rather a difference in the noise of the equipment, and momentary clipping.

This idea of a "bright" sound. The general agreement is that you/me/we are hearing an emphasis on treble. I contend that we are really hearing more noise in the high treble frequency.

The "warm" sound, may be more noise in the midrange.

A receiver, or any amplifier, is taking a very small, infinitely minute, electronic signal, and applying a significant amplification to that signal. Any noise, ANY NOISE that enters the signal stream with the original signal will also be amplified.

My Denon receiver is extremely quite. BUT when I disconnect the DVD player (no signal to be amplified) and crank the volume to nearly max, I can hear a hiss sound through the speakers. It is not loud, in fact if the AC is running in the house I may not hear the noise, but it is there. It is not a high pitched sound, more of a sound similar to the back ground noise of an AM station. Can I hear that noise at normal volume levels? I don't think so, but then again, maybe that noise, at a subconcious level that background sound is the "sound" of that receiver.

That is the back ground noise of that receiver. Every receiver has such a background noise. Every Separate has some noise.

What those noises really are may be the greatest source of "sound difference" between receivers. Is the source of the noise an AC hum from the Power Supply? Is the source of the noise from tuner signal leakage? Is the source of the noise from an internal ground faultsor poor soldered connection? Is the source of the noise from RFI interferance picked up by RCA connections?

The modern receiver is posting SN (signal to noise) ratios of 100, 110, even 120db. Such high SN were unheard of many years ago when separates were seldom over 90db. But with the advent of the CD (a cleaner source materal demonstrating the need for higher quality amplication) and with improvements in equipment and designs, we have a quiter receiver today.


The other source of "sound" of a receiver, or an amp for that matter, is the momentary clipping that occurs on large signal peaks, often on bass heavy music, especially when combined with ineffecient speakers in a larger room setting. This type of clipping is so brief that the display circuits will not show clipping is occurring, but in fact such clipping is happening, and is audable. Better designed equipment, especially equipment with big beefy power supplies and seemingly unlimited dynamic headroom, appear to have less clipping problems than a lighter weight receiver or amp. But then again, driving more effecient speakers also solves the problem.


All in all, is there a difference in equipment? Yes. Is it something to get excited over? No. Can you, me, somebody else definitely determine the "sound" of this brand over another brand? I don't think so.

 

[zipper]

I'll throw my $.02 in..................for $450 or less you aren't going to find any receivers that have "great" power............100wpc or so. I've never owned a Denon(only Yamaha) but I hear that they have a higher current power supply which may attribute to their warmer sound...............The Yammys have a lot of different sound fields(concert hall,jazz club,sci-fi,etc.) that I never seem to use.
I would try to find one that has pre-outs so for at least 5.1 so that you can add amps later if you decide you want more power. I have Axiom M60 speakers that are pretty efficient but the Yamaha RX-V620(5.1, 100wpc) that I had didn't do them justice. I upgraded to a Yamaha 330(6.1, 130wpc) & the difference in sound quality was very evident. Still, I wasn't satisfied. So I bought a couple of older amps(3300 has pre-outs) & bridged them to run the M60's &........VOILA!.........the sound I heard so many raving about in the M60's was finally reached(IMO). The yammy 620 didn't have pre's so I had no options there. Not saying you'll ever want to go that far but having the option is nice.
Also, check to see how many digital inputs there are for each unit(coax & optical). It would be nice to have at least 3 for each depending on how much gear you want to put through your receiver.................the heavier the unit is may(but not always) indicate a beefier power supply as well(which is good).

Hope that helps a little...............GL

 

[dohanc]

Your budget is about where mine is. I have done a lot of research on receivers. I have bright speakers which make me think I should use a "warm" receiver such as the denon. I would like to get the Denon 2805 because of other people's claims it is a bit warmer. It also obviously has one of the largest power supplies of receivers in its range. However, the AVR-2805 is a bit over my budget. Instead I was forced to look at the AVR-2105 which start to drop a lot of features that not only do I just want to play with (and really have no need for) but a few I actually want such as an adjustable room EQ. However at the price of the Denon AVR-2105 I started looking at the Yamaha's which pack a ton of features even at their lower end models.

So my conclusion is below $600 you have to get a Yamaha just to have the features (especially for HT). Above that I would get the Denon as the AVR-2805 has similiar features with perhaps a better amplifier. Above $1000 receivers I know nothing about.

 

[BeerMe]

When I was looking at updating my old pioneer prologic reciever I took nearly 8 months to decide. It was in that time the Denon 3805 came out and I finally found the one!

I looked and listened to the Yamaha 2400 and various other models ,NAD, HK, Marantz, Onkyo (Integra). What I liked about the Denon was the features and yes, I thought it sounded 'warmer' on the speakers at a few different shops, (man I must have been a pain in the arse). A couple of the times I went listening I took my friend who builds loudspeakers and has tought me alot. One thing he tought me was don't beleive the salesman. When we listened to the 2400 vs 3805 he made the salesman reset the levels crossover even the frequencies from the room eq. What this gave us was a neutral listening environment to judge sound processing!!! That's right the most important feature in any sort of surround amplifier is the processing. listen to what comes out of each channel in surround listening to music. What I found with the yammy was the rears were very loud and didn't sound clear, where as the denon sounded natural, as if you were a the live show we were watching, because remember what we're after with a sound system... reproducing sound as it sounded when originally played/recorded.

My friend who has been building speakers in Australia for years has given me the pleasure of being his 'ears' for his new range, (I'm not plugging his company) but the twin 8 inch with tweeter model (i'll call it this because he hasn't worked out model numbers yet) has the flatest response i've ever seen +/- 0.75db 20hz-20khz, 4ohm load (again if you know about loads the load on this speaker may sound heavy but it's a flat 4ohm load, it doesn't jump all over the place) and the best bit 95db, very loud these babies. My receiver has no trouble powering these in 2 channel mode or even in 5 channel, I did this as a test on my amp to see what would happen. No problem what so ever even at ear busting levels.

But I digress from your question, but what I'm getting at is use the things on the side of your head. Sit when listening, take your time don't let the salesman try to push something on you. The best thing you can do, if you have speakers is take them with you and listen to models your interested in and see how they sound on different receivers.

If you can't find anything you like within your budget my advice is save for the one you want otherwise after the initial glow wears off you start wishing you had waited to be able to afford that other model. I've had my 3805 for 6 months andI still look and listen with a grin from ear to ear.

I hope this helps you with your purchase and many years of listening pleasure.

John.