Receivers: Marantz sr5002, H/K avr 254, Yamaha v663...etc.

bandphan

bandphan

Banned
The same thing could also apply to the group that claims there is no difference.
The group also suggest that if science is applied with double blind testing, that our eyes and mind is taking out of the equation that our ears will really tell a truth. I invite you to try it and see what the results are. The sound comes from the speakers and their interaction with the room. Like another member on another Forum states something to the affect: placing good speakers in bad room is like driving a porsche on glare ice and blaming the handling on the car. Thats all ivè got on the matter.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The group also suggest that if science is applied with double blind testing, that our eyes and mind is taking out of the equation that our ears will really tell a truth. I invite you to try it and see what the results are. The sound comes from the speakers and their interaction with the room. Like another member on another Forum states something to the affect: placing good speakers in bad room is like driving a porsche on glare ice and blaming the handling on the car. Thats all ivè got on the matter.
But I fully agreed with Craig, I do believe the factors I cited apply to at least some people in the other group. Statistically speaking it bound to be the case.

There are also people who jumped over to the other side for a variety of reasons.:D
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't know what the statistical relevance of the green chicklets is but for some reason the guys who are able to hear this and hear that with their eyes wide open generally have very few green chicklets and the rude hearingly agile posters sometimes have red chicklets.

Maybe AH would be good enough to fund a research group that I would be happy to head up and I could post my results after none of the funds get misappropriated.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
By the way, if I remember correctly, you are getting an Arcam AVR to drive your 802 speakers. The 802D has been my dream speakers for a few years now, mainly because I was impressed with how faithfully it could reproduce the viloin. The Arcam was the reason why I bought my speakers because it made them sound so sweet in the show room. I did say when I brought the speakers home they worked great with my Denon too. That being said, do you seriously believe that little AVR can do justice to you 802, if it is anything like the 802D?:D
My apology to CraigV, it was greggp2 who has the 802 and ordered an Arcam. Since I cannot edit my post I have to quote myself. My question should have been directed to greggp2.:eek:
 
K

korndawg

Enthusiast
Well, I just recieved my HK 254 and I must say 'wow'. A difference is notable compared to my old Pio 1014, especially in music. Most notable for me is the bass; much more impact. Count me in for for the crowd that says that recievers can/do make a difference.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Well, I just recieved my HK 254 and I must say 'wow'. A difference is notable compared to my old Pio 1014, especially in music. Most notable for me is the bass; much more impact. Count me in for for the crowd that says that recievers can/do make a difference.
Explain how musically how its better. Is it the liquid smooth mid range or the authortive flat bass response, or improved off axis response of the speakers?
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
It seems the more I read that there is a split between those who can & those who can’t hear an audible difference between electronic gear. It’s not a matter of my wanting to believe in something that isn’t true, I immediately notice going from an Onkyo & HK receiver. I also asked 2 guys I work with who are “enthusiasts” and they both proclaimed “hell yes there’s a difference”.

It seems those who claim there is no difference take the matter rather personally, banding together to call others out, and even one of the members who called me “delusional” for my claims. I know I’m not alone in my agility, as others have posted they too can discern a difference. Why is this so hard to believe? Just because one person can’t tell a difference does not mean no one can.
I have an HK right now, I can't say it sounds any different than any Onkyo I've owned. Speakers/room/accoustic control dictate 95% of sound. The rest is making certain that you've met your power requirements and not buying garbage that adds noise/distortion/sounds that weren't present in the original program material. Amplifiers, preamps, and DACs shouldn't have a sound signature, they should be neutral and it's more than feasible to make them so that they are. DACs are processors, they are very simplistic compared to the processors found in computers or an iPhone. DACs are easy and inexpensive to make for anyone that manufactures them. When DACs operate they don't run hot, which means they don't clip or have a lot of errors. If a DAC is designed and executed properly it's rate of error will never have a sonic deviation from what was intended. Apply this same logic to preamps and amplifiers and you have neutral sound. With all the technology that's been solidified over the past several decades why would making receivers, amplifiers, DACs, and other integrated electronics that countless manufacturers produce every single year be a difficult task? What about making neutral equipment is such a mystery? The function of these parts is isolated to handle a small handful of tasks which includes switching, level output, post processes, and amplification. None of these functions requires that you have your room arranged in a certain way to get the most out of your amplifier. The real differences come when you get into speakers, each of which has a different sonic signature due to it's cabinet construction/configuration, the choice of drivers used in the speaker, reflective and absorbitive surfaces, countless differences from each room that a speaker may be used in. With amplifiers it's simple. If the room is bigger then you may need more power for a particular speaker. If you are looking at changing speakers because the room is bigger then may encounter more issues other than just more output necessity.

People want to hear differences that aren't there to justify their purchases. There is nothing wrong with being happy with your purchase. I am very happy with my current stereo rig using separates and I'm very happy with my AV rig as well. However, I am not going to say that my stereo rig's amplifier sounds better than the receiver in my other rig, because it's simply not true.

To the OP, I would say that getting a receiver that has upscaling abilities is pointless on mid-fi receivers because most Blu-ray players upscale DVDs better than mid-fi receivers. If you have other video sources such as a VCR or Laserdisk player then upscaling on the AVR could become useful, otherwise it's a waste of money when another product can handle those functions as well as if not better than a receiver can. Currently the most cost effective receiver that offers a significantly better upscaler than your average Blu-ray player is the Onkyo TX-SR875/876. Since they are far from your budget I would recommend sticking with a receiver that supports HDMI 1.3 without unless you find a great deal on an upscaling receiver that has all the other features you need as well.

The Marantz SR 5002 appeals to me for it's fit and finish and the 5 year warranty. If additional power was ever needed the preamp stage in the Marantz is probably of very good quality.
 
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K

korndawg

Enthusiast
Explain how musically how its better. Is it the liquid smooth mid range or the authortive flat bass response, or improved off axis response of the speakers?
With the Pio, the bass always quite anemic with music. There was bass granted, but nothing that made me say, wow. For HT use tho, had zero compaints. As soon as I hooked up the HK and set the xover, I noticed improved bass, most notably with my sub. Bass was 'there' again. I can't comment too much on HT, cuz I have yet to watch a movie yet.
I agree that people always 'want' t hear a difference to justify your purchase. I was able to justify it just cuz it has all the audio codecs that I needed for BD (my HTPC didnt support them), so the added sounds was just a bonus. The sole reason why i bought a reciever was for the HDMI inputs and the codecs.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
With the Pio, the bass always quite anemic with music. There was bass granted, but nothing that made me say, wow. For HT use tho, had zero compaints. As soon as I hooked up the HK and set the xover, I noticed improved bass, most notably with my sub. Bass was 'there' again. I can't comment too much on HT, cuz I have yet to watch a movie yet.
I agree that people always 'want' t hear a difference to justify your purchase. I was able to justify it just cuz it has all the audio codecs that I needed for BD (my HTPC didnt support them), so the added sounds was just a bonus. The sole reason why i bought a reciever was for the HDMI inputs and the codecs.
It could be a difference in roll-off from the receiver's x-over. You could have attempted to use the subwoofer's x-over instead or in conjunction with the receivers. I would have set the Pioneer's x-over 20hz-50hz lower while the speakers were still set to small and ramped up the x-over on the amplifier a little more to achieve the best blending. It sounds like the roll-off on the Pioneer was steeper than the H/Ks.
 
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korndawg

Enthusiast
It could be a difference in roll-off from the receiver's x-over. You could have attempted to use the subwoofer's x-over instead or in conjunction with the receivers. I would have set the Pioneer's x-over 20hz-50hz lower while the speakers were still set to small and ramped up the x-over on the amplifier a little more to achieve the best blending. It sounds like the roll-off on the Pioneer was steeper than the H/Ks.
I used the Pio's crossover over the subs, just like I'm doing now. I just popped in Nirvana's Unplugged DVD now. Loving it!
Anyone now is welcome to call me a "HK fanboy" or whatever. I'm not saying the Pio could have sounded as good with a ton of tweaks or diff settings, but as the way it stands, I'm prefering the HK.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I used the Pio's crossover over the subs, just like I'm doing now. I just popped in Nirvana's Unplugged DVD now. Loving it!
Anyone now is welcome to call me a "HK fanboy" or whatever. I'm not saying the Pio could have sounded as good with a ton of tweaks or diff settings, but as the way it stands, I'm prefering the HK.
Then it's likely the reason you like the H/K so much is because it's easier for you in the respect that it was easy to get the sound you wanted from it. The Pioneer is likely of having that same sound, it would just be a little more tricky to get it to sound as the H/K does not. The sonic differences between the two are more than likely set configuration differences. Nothing is wrong with you enjoying the H/K, and I definitely hope that you do.:D
 
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korndawg

Enthusiast
I'm poor. Only have some old AV123 ELT's and a Mirage S10 sub. But for right now, I'm happy and I'm happy wtih my reciever upgrade. I'd kill for some PSB/Paradigm/Aperion towers and a HSU 3.3 sub. Someday.
 
CraigV

CraigV

Audioholic General
To bandphan, Isiberian, Seth=L

To bandphan, Isiberian, Seth=L etal. I have a question. Let’s suppose I was able to set up a double blind test, with the three of you making up the criteria for the test.
Now let’s say at the end of it all, I was able to show that in fact, I could discern a difference between equipment as I claim I can, and to the parameters you chose for the test to be accurate, fair & unbiased. Would you still feel the way you do, that there is no discernable difference?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I used the Pio's crossover over the subs, just like I'm doing now. I just popped in Nirvana's Unplugged DVD now. Loving it!
Anyone now is welcome to call me a "HK fanboy" or whatever. I'm not saying the Pio could have sounded as good with a ton of tweaks or diff settings, but as the way it stands, I'm prefering the HK.
I would like to make two points:

1. Even when using analog inputs with all sound processing bypassed, there is still a better chance that entry level receivers can sound different enough to be noticeable especially if they are pushed to approach their power limit. At their lower price point, the quality of the components used and the R&D put into them may not put them near the point of diminishing return in terms of overall sound quality and power output. They may have to make different compromises to keep their prices low.

2. It is more than likely that they would sound quite different if sound processing, including bass management, are in use.
 
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bandphan

bandphan

Banned
To bandphan, Isiberian, Seth=L etal. I have a question. Let’s suppose I was able to set up a double blind test, with the three of you making up the criteria for the test.
Now let’s say at the end of it all, I was able to show that in fact, I could discern a difference between equipment as I claim I can, and to the parameters you chose for the test to be accurate, fair & unbiased. Would you still feel the way you do, that there is no discernable difference?
Did you look at the first link i posted on DBTs? There is really only one way to do it;) and as ivè stated, ivè done it with friends. Maybe majorloser will have some dbt at this years gtg ?? If your ever in Florida, pm and we can make some arrangements. Also there are plenty of members aside from us three that understand the science side.
 
CraigV

CraigV

Audioholic General
Did you look at the first link i posted on DBTs? There is really only one way to do it;) and as ivè stated, ivè done it with friends. Maybe majorloser will have some dbt at this years gtg ?? If your ever in Florida, pm and we can make some arrangements. Also there are plenty of members aside from us three that understand the science side.
That doesn't answer my question
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
That doesn't answer my question
If you can, ill bow down to your golden ears and write an article debunking dbts and the statments that have been made by me and the thousands of others. Just curious what is your thought on high end speaker wire and cables? Also you do understand that ivè been doing this for a living for a very long time and im not trying to speak out of my arse , just trying to persent an argument thats not subjective. Thats all, sorry if it comes across any other way. Another question, do you own a spl meter?
 
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