Receivers: Marantz sr5002, H/K avr 254, Yamaha v663...etc.

[korndawg]

I'm not here to argue, cuz frankly, I could really care less. I'm happy with what I got. But anyways, are u guys saying, that since a reciever can't possibly make a 'sound' difference, that people should buy the cheapest reciever they can that has all the features that they want/need? Because they all sound the same? I like my HK, I would really like to try the Denon 1909, because of the Audessey features, but I decided to become a fanboy Maybe I'll splurge and buy that one too for an A/B test? I basically chose the HK for these reasons over the Denon
1) "reputation"
2) Preout's
3) Price
4) Looks

The ONLY thing that could possibly sway me towards the 1909 is the Audessey. I just don't know if its worth the extra $100 and losing the preouts.

 

[PENG]

But anyways, are u guys saying, that since a reciever can't possibly make a 'sound' difference, that people should buy the cheapest reciever they can that has all the features that they want/need? Because they all sound the same?

I said (please read my post#37) entry level ones could sound different especially if sound processing is in use and/or operating near their power limit. Even in analog input pure direct mode they could still sound different depending on the speakers in use, listening level etc. Conversely they could still sound very close and difficult to tell apart when operated under controlled conditions.

 

[lsiberian]

To bandphan, Isiberian, Seth=L etal. I have a question. Let’s suppose I was able to set up a double blind test, with the three of you making up the criteria for the test.
Now let’s say at the end of it all, I was able to show that in fact, I could discern a difference between equipment as I claim I can, and to the parameters you chose for the test to be accurate, fair & unbiased. Would you still feel the way you do, that there is no discernable difference?

Of course I would change my mind.

My only requirement is that they are hooked up to the same speakers and have the same settings.

However I will say a system with a better eq system would obviously have better theater sound than one with a lesser one.

So there are such things as better receivers in certain applications.

 

[bandphan]

. But anyways, are u guys saying, that since a reciever can't possibly make a 'sound' difference, that people should buy the cheapest reciever they can that has all the features that they want/need? Because they all sound the same? .

The units do make a sound diffence but with spl and features but not the signal. Enjoy your gear, thats whats it about. For me the differnce between a 800 avr and a 2000 is about features not sound differences. As for HK being better quality than denon thats VERY far reaching over the years. When it was harmon kardon and not harmon internation, their gear imo was much better.

 

[CraigV]

If you can, ill bow down to your golden ears and write an article debunking dbts and the statments that have been made by me and the thousands of others. Just curious what is your thought on high end speaker wire and cables? Also you do understand that ivè been doing this for a living for a very long time and im not trying to speak out of my arse , just trying to persent an argument thats not subjective. Thats all, sorry if it comes across any other way. Another question, do you own a spl meter?

Again, evading the question. I am not trying to make anyone “bow” to me, that’s not the point at all. There are plenty of people who can detect differences between receivers, amplifiers, D/A converters…they don’t imagine these differences, nor do they believe because they want to believe – for them, it is a fact.

I just don’t appreciate that there are those who tell me (and others) that I am wrong, or delusional. Is what I purport really so “anti” or unbelievable that I should be admonished for it? If I recommend someone considering an Onkyo or Denon listen to an HK, it’s not to rub it in anyone’s face, it’s because I believe it should be up to the individual, every bit as much as I would recommend someone listen to a particular speaker or two, but never think to tell someone they were wrong/crazy/delusional for buying what they thought sounded best to them. Yet, that seems to be a concession everyone here is willing to make.

There’s more to sound reproduction than measurements on paper.

 

[PENG]

I just don’t appreciate that there are those who tell me (and others) that I am wrong, or delusional. Is what I purport really so “anti” or unbelievable that I should be admonished for it? If I recommend someone considering an Onkyo or Denon listen to an HK, it’s not to rub it in anyone’s face, it’s because I believe it should be up to the individual, every bit as much as I would recommend someone listen to a particular speaker or two, but never think to tell someone they were wrong/crazy/delusional for buying what they thought sounded best to them. Yet, that seems to be a concession everyone here is willing to make.

There’s more to sound reproduction than measurements on paper.

I quickly re-read this thread and did not find anyone saying anyone is wrong or delusional. If I missed, sorry, otherwise I hope you were referring to another forum or thread.

Actually if I read it right, most of us are saying a lot of the same things, that receivers do/can sound different depending on how they are set up, used, and compared. If you are saying that some receivers, such as HK, has a different sound by design than say Pioneer regardless of their specs on paper, how they are used and setup, then I would respectively agree to disagree. After all, it is rare that people agree to one another 100% all the time.

 

[CraigV]

Found these little tidbits in my user control panel:

Speaker break in is a myth and bad advice newbie

Repeat the question. I dare you.

Just because I only have 100 odd postings does not make me a “newbie” to the subject matter. I’ve been doing the whole audio thing since before CD players were even invented.

Seems as though I’ve ruffled a few feathers. What it all comes down to is a matter of belief. If you approach a group of devout Christians with proof/evidence that Jesus never lived, or a group of Muslims and proclaim Mohamed never lived, you’re going encounter a great deal of animosity and doubt.
Likewise, if you tell the Roman Emperor this rather humble man is in fact the son of God, you’re likely to be persecuted. (Please don’t misinterpret - I am NOT comparing myself to anyone)

I would encourage anyone coming to these forums looking for advise to consider all advice, audition as much equipment as possible*, and ultimately decide for themselves what matters most.

*I would even say go to different shops (even “high end”) and just listen to the variety of equipment & speakers available, even if you’re not shopping, just to get an idea of what offerings are out there.

 

[ChunkyDark]

I have done some minor research into the H/K avr 247. The trouble is there are few left for sale. The couple I did find are within $35 of the avr 254, and I would rather spend the extra money for its' upgrades. Anybody know where some H/K avr254 refurbs can be had? I have found refurb sites for all the rest of the competition.

It may come down to who has the best price at the beginning of April.

Check out the Harman Audio outlet on ebay. They have full manufacture warranty.
http://stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZQ2d33QQftidZ2QQtZkm
Right now there isn't any on there, but that changes daily.
I bought a couple of in-walls for my kitchen and one arrived damaged. They did free shipping both ways to get it swapped out.

 

[CraigV]

OK, I agree it’s time to wrap this up. I would like to thank bandphan for his PM - it is very much appreciated. It’s obvious this subject matter is something I believe in strongly. Perhaps I also took some of the comments a little too personally. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe - we agree to disagree.

My patent answers to “which amp/receiver” and “which speaker” will be:

It’s a good idea to come to a site like this & ask advice, but be prepared to get differing viewpoints. Jot down the brands/models people post and try to find somewhere where you can audition them in person. Better yet, see if you can audition them at home, as your particular room setup/décor will make a difference in overall sound, as opposed to the store. See for yourself if there’s any validity to the notion of different equipment sounding different. Listen to as many different amps/receivers/speakers as you can get your “ears” on, and decide what sounds best to you, because ultimately it’s your money and your decision.
I would also suggest going to stores, including “high end” shops when you’re not shopping for a new piece of gear. See what offerings are out there - sometimes it’s good to feed your passion just by listening to something different.

 

[Seth=L]

To bandphan, Isiberian, Seth=L etal. I have a question. Let’s suppose I was able to set up a double blind test, with the three of you making up the criteria for the test.
Now let’s say at the end of it all, I was able to show that in fact, I could discern a difference between equipment as I claim I can, and to the parameters you chose for the test to be accurate, fair & unbiased. Would you still feel the way you do, that there is no discernable difference?

If there is a discernable difference and the test proves that you are correct then I would change me view. Proof will take a lot of time out of your schedule.

 

[lsiberian]

If there is a discernable difference and the test proves that you are correct then I would change me view. Proof will take a lot of time out of your schedule.

If he buys the tickets. He has iQ7s so I would be just fine listening to those.

 

[Seth=L]

I'm not here to argue, cuz frankly, I could really care less. I'm happy with what I got. But anyways, are u guys saying, that since a reciever can't possibly make a 'sound' difference, that people should buy the cheapest reciever they can that has all the features that they want/need? Because they all sound the same? I like my HK, I would really like to try the Denon 1909, because of the Audessey features, but I decided to become a fanboy Maybe I'll splurge and buy that one too for an A/B test? I basically chose the HK for these reasons over the Denon
1) "reputation"
2) Preout's
3) Price
4) Looks

The ONLY thing that could possibly sway me towards the 1909 is the Audessey. I just don't know if its worth the extra $100 and losing the preouts.

I would say keep the H/K, as preouts are a very handy feature to have.

BTW, I feel that Denon currently has a higher reputation than H/K. A lot of people feel that H/K receivers are less reliable than a lot of other manufacturers. Circuit City reportadly dropped the H/K lines due to high returns (second only to Sony). It's possible it was BS they told the employees because H/K may have decided to pull their stuff from CC before they went Bankrupt. I firmly believe that Harman Industries investors are very watchful since the company isn't raking it in at the moment. They are probably pinching pennies anywhere they can.

 

[Seth=L]

If he buys the tickets. He has iQ7s so I would be just fine listening to those.

Well there you have it, it's settled.

Where do you live CraigV?

 

[CraigV]

Well there you have it, it's settled.

Where do you live CraigV?

Twin Cities area of MN - just NE of St Paul

 

[lsiberian]

I would say keep the H/K, as preouts are a very handy feature to have.

BTW, I feel that Denon currently has a higher reputation than H/K. A lot of people feel that H/K receivers are less reliable than a lot of other manufacturers. Circuit City reportadly dropped the H/K lines due to high returns (second only to Sony). It's possible it was BS they told the employees because H/K may have decided to pull their stuff from CC before they went Bankrupt. I firmly believe that Harman Industries investors are very watchful since the company isn't raking it in at the moment. They are probably pinching pennies anywhere they can.

HK amps aren't that pretty IMO. Anyone picking them on looks needs to have their eyesight checked

However my theory is that HK suffers from trying to do too much. I think they try to put some many bells and whistles on their stuff that some of the stuff breaks. However it must be noted reliability issues are largely HDMI upconverting related and do permeate the entire industry. However many of those issues appear to be resolved with the latest HK firmware. And for 205 bucks shipped you can't beat and HK AV247

I have yet to see great deals on Denons like the Onkyo and HK deals. So you will pay the price for that reliability. Kind funny how Sony receivers have issues and there tvs were so reliable.

 

[bandphan]

Kind funny how Sony receivers have issues and there tvs were so reliable.

I wouldnt be so sure about that(tvs)
The sxrd sets had more than a few issues.

 

[lsiberian]

I wouldnt be so sure about that(tvs)
The sxrd sets had more than a few issues.

Well they still have the least issues in the LCDs from what i've heard.

I know in the CRT days seeing a bad one was rare.

 

[bandphan]

Well they still have the least issues in the LCDs from what i've heard.

I know in the CRT days seeing a bad one was rare.

yep.. crt
in this order..

loewe the bomb for crts

sony

panasonic

toshiba