Receivers: Marantz sr5002, H/K avr 254, Yamaha v663...etc.

[Overfloater8]

Hello all ,
I just purchased AV123's x-series x-sls tower speaker 5.0 package., and am looking to get a solid 5.1 system (w. option to upgrade to 7.1) up and running for a room roughly 250 sq. ft. Now I am focusing on a receiver...

Receiver will be:
-70% for music.
-30% for movies.
Penultimate concern is audio quality. Receiver must have:
-HDMI 1.3
-7.1

I will be upgrading to Blu-Ray and am counting on it taking care of:
-DTS/DD HD audio
-deep color
-DVD up-conversion

For my wee $350 budget I'm primarily considering (but am open to suggestions):

-Marantz sr5002-Love the musical reputation, and I know there are alot of supporters on this board, although I can find very little research concerning this particular model...Especially vs. the H/K avr 254.

-Harman Kardon avr 254-Like alot of the features (port for RS 232 upgrades, rep. for audio) Blu-Ray should negate most of the other bells and whistles. Am concerned about only 50 watts a channel; also will cost a more than the Marantz.

Have also previously considered, but am leaning away from:
-Onkyo sr606-non-musical in many reviews, but do love bang for buck.
-Pioneer VSX1018-Too expensive.
-Yamaha v663-Actually, I own the Yamaha c750 universal DVD player and have been satisfied with it, but audio for the v663 just doesn't seem to measure up to H/K or Marantz from the research I have done, although, again, I was very impressed w. all the features they crammed into this unit.

Advice concerning ANY of these receivers or ANY you would recommend would be very much appreciated.

 

[korndawg]

From all my research and that your listening to mostly music, HK 254 would be your best choice. Thats what I just ordered It'll be here Saturday. I'll post my thoughts on it.

PS, don't worry about the HK's ratings. It puts out just as much, if not more, that the others.

 

[CraigV]

The HK is capable of delivering more current to the speakers, thus giving it more muscle for music & movies. And, you could always add an outboard amp later for more power.

 

[bandphan]

Apparently some of our members need to read up on high current avrs
If this were the 60s id say units had a "sound distinction"

 

[Overfloater8]

Apparently some of our members need to read up on high current avrs
If this were the 60s id say units had a "sound distinction"

I have been advised: "Buy receivers for features and speakers for sound." on one hand. Yet it is interesting to read professional reviews/posters giving mildly negative feedback for the Onkyo SR606 regarding its' "flat/non-musical" performance.
If the receiver has little impact regarding "sound distinction" and the Blu-Ray player will resolve most of my feature needs, why not buy the most bare bones receiver available?
Thanks to the posters who took the time to respond.

 

[bandphan]

Professional (so called) reviewers can tell you that the moon is made of cheese, but it doesnt make it so. If the auto eq was in use, sound can be affected. You are correct in the thought that speakers make the difference, then the room. Id suggest lurking this forum for feedback on various avrs. Mid-fi gear is all about features and function. My mother has an yama 395 thats 9 years old driving 6 series B & Ws and that was the lowest level yama made then and it sounds great.

 

[CraigV]

I have been advised: "Buy receivers for features and speakers for sound." on one hand. Yet it is interesting to read professional reviews/posters giving mildly negative feedback for the Onkyo SR606 regarding its' "flat/non-musical" performance.
If the receiver has little impact regarding "sound distinction" and the Blu-Ray player will resolve most of my feature needs, why not buy the most bare bones receiver available?
Thanks to the posters who took the time to respond.

I found this to be the case with my Onkyo SR-605. That’s why I switched. The HK is more dynamic, despite some peoples lack of being able to discern the differences.

 

[lsiberian]

Hello all ,
I just purchased AV123's x-series x-sls tower speaker 5.0 package., and am looking to get a solid 5.1 system (w. option to upgrade to 7.1) up and running for a room roughly 250 sq. ft. Now I am focusing on a receiver...

Receiver will be:
-70% for music.
-30% for movies.
Penultimate concern is audio quality. Receiver must have:
-HDMI 1.3
-7.1

I will be upgrading to Blu-Ray and am counting on it taking care of:
-DTS/DD HD audio
-deep color
-DVD up-conversion

For my wee $350 budget I'm primarily considering (but am open to suggestions):

-Marantz sr5002-Love the musical reputation, and I know there are alot of supporters on this board, although I can find very little research concerning this particular model...Especially vs. the H/K avr 254.

-Harman Kardon avr 254-Like alot of the features (port for RS 232 upgrades, rep. for audio) Blu-Ray should negate most of the other bells and whistles. Am concerned about only 50 watts a channel; also will cost a more than the Marantz.

Have also previously considered, but am leaning away from:
-Onkyo sr606-non-musical in many reviews, but do love bang for buck.
-Pioneer VSX1018-Too expensive.
-Yamaha v663-Actually, I own the Yamaha c750 universal DVD player and have been satisfied with it, but audio for the v663 just doesn't seem to measure up to H/K or Marantz from the research I have done, although, again, I was very impressed w. all the features they crammed into this unit.

Advice concerning ANY of these receivers or ANY you would recommend would be very much appreciated.

I just picked up an HK AVR247 it's great for music.

I wonder if there is actually a difference. I have noticed switching receivers a difference in sound. But dynamic is usually a function of volume or simply having had the dynamic range compression on. Did you know the Onkyo has such a feature as do many players. If you like dynamic volume you need to turn them off. I usually keep some on. Because I'm in an apartment.

I think your greatest differences would be in the LFE and EQ settings. Crossover settings greatly effect this.

I had an Onkyo 705. It was an amazing receiver. And higly recommended. I had to sell it because of budget issues. But it's the best receiver I've owned. Perfect combo of every feature.

 

[bandphan]

FWIW Ive owned 2 hks and was happy with their performance(mid 90s). How is HK more dynamic Ive done DBT with my gear and those involved could not hear a darn bit of difference between my mac(pred with a hafler), yama, pioneer. all were level matched and played I know my mac has the ability to deliver all its rated power and more, but it still has no audiable sound bearing when comparing apples to apples.

 

[lsiberian]

The HK is capable of delivering more current to the speakers, thus giving it more muscle for music & movies. And, you could always add an outboard amp later for more power.

It would actually be better to deliver more voltage because you get a higher amount of power that way.

But the difference between 100 watts and 50 watts is only 3db. And I doubt the Marantz could go to 90 watts without clipping badly. If you end up needing more power you can always get an external amp.

I suggest you look at the AVR247 and get a Blu-ray that decodes the new formats for you.

 

[lsiberian]

FWIW Ive owned 2 hks and was happy with their performance(mid 90s). How is HK more dynamic Ive done DBT with my gear and those involved could not hear a darn bit of difference between my mac(pred with a hafler), yama, pioneer. all were level matched and played I know my mac has the ability to deliver all its rated power and more, but it still has no audiable sound bearing when comparing apples to apples.

Exactly. If your HK sounds better then I'm afraid you didn't have your Onkyo configured properly.

 

[CraigV]

It seems the more I read that there is a split between those who can & those who can’t hear an audible difference between electronic gear. It’s not a matter of my wanting to believe in something that isn’t true, I immediately notice going from an Onkyo & HK receiver. I also asked 2 guys I work with who are “enthusiasts” and they both proclaimed “hell yes there’s a difference”.

It seems those who claim there is no difference take the matter rather personally, banding together to call others out, and even one of the members who called me “delusional” for my claims. I know I’m not alone in my agility, as others have posted they too can discern a difference. Why is this so hard to believe? Just because one person can’t tell a difference does not mean no one can.

 

[lsiberian]

It seems the more I read that there is a split between those who can & those who can’t hear an audible difference between electronic gear. It’s not a matter of my wanting to believe in something that isn’t true, I immediately notice going from an Onkyo & HK receiver. I also asked 2 guys I work with who are “enthusiasts” and they both proclaimed “hell yes there’s a difference”.

It seems those who claim there is no difference take the matter rather personally, banding together to call others out, and even one of the members who called me “delusional” for my claims. I know I’m not alone in my agility, as others have posted they too can discern a difference. Why is this so hard to believe? Just because one person can’t tell a difference does not mean no one can.

I think we don't disagree. We just see different sides of the situation. Perhaps the reason for the HK sounding better in your application is because the setup was easier and more accurate. There is something to be said for that. And it isn't reducing your ears or putting you down. It helps us to point to better options. Power is also important. The HK I just got seems to have good power. Despite other folks stating otherwise.

I can hear a difference the HK sounds more musical, but weaker in HT, but I believe it's setup related more than anything else.

The point being with little setup I find it to be more musical than my previous receiver. Which to me indicates my previous receiver wasn't properly setup for music.

At AH we want to emphasize the speakers over every other aspect. Because ultimately that's what makes the music.

 

[bandphan]

The only way to be for sure is to do double blind testing. Then and only then can one say for sure. Ivè exchanged emails with Roger Russell on this topic, amp and pre amp design and speakers and cables and im pretty sure he is a litlle more than an enthauist. Ones mind can play to what one wants to beleive. Take Yamaha for example, the largest musical instrument manufacture in the world, would they want any alteration of sound with their gear and not reproduce the signal as its presented? The gear Today, as stated, unless faulty doesnt have a "sound". Why would anyone want that?

 

[PENG]

I found this to be the case with my Onkyo SR-605. That’s why I switched. The HK is more dynamic, despite some peoples lack of being able to discern the differences.

Yet those same people are often able to discerrn the differences between speakers.

 

[PENG]

I think we don't disagree. We just see different sides of the situation. Perhaps the reason for the HK sounding better in your application is because the setup was easier and more accurate. There is something to be said for that. And it isn't reducing your ears or putting you down. It helps us to point to better options. Power is also important. The HK I just got seems to have good power. Despite other folks stating otherwise.

I can hear a difference the HK sounds more musical, but weaker in HT, but I believe it's setup related more than anything else.

The point being with little setup I find it to be more musical than my previous receiver. Which to me indicates my previous receiver wasn't properly setup for music.

At AH we want to emphasize the speakers over every other aspect. Because ultimately that's what makes the music.

There are always exceptions but I think in many cases but 'hearsay', 'group think', 'placebo' effects do have their influence. Once upon the time someone started saying HK receivers are high current capable (a couple of their model probably were), NAD, Arcam and other British made amps are musical, then more and more people jump on the bandwagon for whatever reasons that I am not going to guess. I have read enough British reviews and if I can believe them they don't seem the think the Arcam are that much more warm and musical than comparable Denon and Yamaha models. What HiFi certainly rated the NADT775 lower than the Denon 3805 (comparable back a few years ago).

I don't doubt some people have special ability to detect minute sonic/tonal differences but the majority of the population will have trouble telling their mid level gear (say a 1.3 to 2.5K AVR) apart if they cannot see them and do not know the price differences as long as they are use within their power limit and compare them in pure direct mode using analog inputs. Now, in many cases where there is a need for more power, the more powerful ones will obviously do better.

When I auditioned the 802D, the sales consultant first demoed it with a 100 WPC Musical Fidelity amp using a high end CD player. I immediately noticed how well those 802D playing my own classical music CDs. Then the guy brought out a 600 WPC Bryston 14B SST and told me to be prepared for a real treat. Well, there were 4 of us in the room, two of them were young piano players with good ears as far as I know. We didn't want to be rude but when we compared notes after, none of us would say the two amps produced different results. On the other hand, any of us had no trouble picking out the 802 from the 803.

I have since also A/B compared speakers and amps including some McIntosh tube and SS separate systems. I love the look of those amps and still want to get at least one sooner than later but I won't be disappointed if I find out they don't sound any different than the amps I currently own. I have seen enough posts to know that people are going to have their own preference. In my case, for sound quality, I go for power and use analog inputs to bypass any sound processing in my AVR. For movies, any mid level AVRs are good enough for me. I am not going to tell anyone what will sound good to them any more. There is no way of knowing what one's preference is. I will make comments when I see myths that are not based on science on engineering, that's all.

 

[Overfloater8]

I suggest you look at the AVR247 and get a Blu-ray that decodes the new formats for you.

I have done some minor research into the H/K avr 247. The trouble is there are few left for sale. The couple I did find are within $35 of the avr 254, and I would rather spend the extra money for its' upgrades. Anybody know where some H/K avr254 refurbs can be had? I have found refurb sites for all the rest of the competition.

It may come down to who has the best price at the beginning of April.

 

[Overfloater8]

The only way to be for sure is to do double blind testing. Then and only then can one say for sure. Ivè exchanged emails with Roger Russell on this topic, amp and pre amp design and speakers and cables and im pretty sure he is a litlle more than an enthauist. Ones mind can play to what one wants to beleive. Take Yamaha for example, the largest musical instrument manufacture in the world, would they want any alteration of sound with their gear and not reproduce the signal as its presented? The gear Today, as stated, unless faulty doesnt have a "sound". Why would anyone want that?

Hard to argue with this rationale.

 

[CraigV]

There are always exceptions but I think in many cases but 'hearsay', 'group think', 'placebo' effects do have their influence.

The same thing could also apply to the group that claims there is no difference.

 

[PENG]

The same thing could also apply to the group that claims there is no difference.

Absolutely, that is why it would be nice if we all express our opinions and respect others, but sometimes people do take things a little personal. The fact is, as you mentioned previously, there is a "split".

One thing though Craig, for claims like "HK is high current and give more so call real power......." etc., the Audioholic site has a couple of articles on such topics:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-high-instantaneous-current-spec/?searchterm=high current

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-all-channels-driven-amplifier-test-controversy/?searchterm=all channel driven power.

I don't agree with everything in those articles and in the high current one I felt the writer had simpified the theory/equations too much. I guess he wanted to make things easier to understand. It does however, get the points across nicely.

By the way, if I remember correctly, you are getting an Arcam AVR to drive your 802 speakers. The 802D has been my dream speakers for a few years now, mainly because I was impressed with how faithfully it could reproduce the viloin. The Arcam was the reason why I bought my speakers because it made them sound so sweet in the show room. I did say when I brought the speakers home they worked great with my Denon too. That being said, do you seriously believe that little AVR can do justice to you 802, if it is anything like the 802D?