Receiver shut off into 'protection mode' when I touched the metal door (static discharge from carpet) - Normal or potential electrical wiring issue?

N

njweb

Enthusiast
No need to be a Marantz engineer to say "yes". That would obviously be the direct path, but there would be other paths via capacitive coupling, that's likely why it triggered the protection.
Thanks a lot for the additional insights and feedback!
Right, regarding the 'direct path'; I was also thinking about potential indirect paths, which you summarized very nicely and how that may be why the protection kicked in.
Amazing that I never had any receiver (had about 8 of them before the SR7013) go into protection mode before from an ESD event.
As you said before, maybe the SR7013 or my particular unit is extra sensitive and went into protection mode.

In any case, I consider myself extremely fortunate (especially after having two defective Denon receivers delivered to me last week:
One with a faulty Left Surround output - I quickly and easily ruled out speaker wire and the speaker itself by hooking up the Right Surround to the same Left Surround output with the same results (very very low sound at any level). As an extra (albeit unnecessary step, since I had already tested the known-functioning Right Surround speaker with the Left Surround output), I also moved the Left Surround speaker to the right output and it was fine as expected).
The other one )X4500H) had a door stuck open.
Both somehow passed Denon QC. Thankfully I bought both from authorized dealer under warranty. Easy returns...
Still a hassle of course...
So I was happy my SR7013 was working great and, after 2 hours, I simply got up to close the panel and then the ESD event... :)
Never a dull day as the saying goes.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks a lot for the additional insights and feedback!
Right, regarding the 'direct path'; I was also thinking about potential indirect paths, which you summarized very nicely and how that may be why the protection kicked in.
Amazing that I never had any receiver (had about 8 of them before the SR7013) go into protection mode before from an ESD event.
As you said before, maybe the SR7013 or my particular unit is extra sensitive and went into protection mode.

In any case, I consider myself extremely fortunate (especially after having two defective Denon receivers delivered to me last week:
One with a faulty Left Surround output - I quickly and easily ruled out speaker wire and the speaker itself by hooking up the Right Surround to the same Left Surround output with the same results (very very low sound at any level). As an extra (albeit unnecessary step, since I had already tested the known-functioning Right Surround speaker with the Left Surround output), I also moved the Left Surround speaker to the right output and it was fine as expected).
The other one )X4500H) had a door stuck open.
Both somehow passed Denon QC. Thankfully I bought both from authorized dealer under warranty. Easy returns...
Still a hassle of course...
So I was happy my SR7013 was working great and, after 2 hours, I simply got up to close the panel and then the ESD event... :)
Never a dull day as the saying goes.
You are welcome. I have had 5 Denon AVRs and two Marantz AVPs and never had activated protection mode so I would agree yours were very unusual, probably a combination of the rug, you walked on it a lot prior, may be dragging your feed on rubber slippers/shoes and low humidity that day.

By the way, when I said instantaneous, it really wouldn't be the case because apparently if it was a short cct., or DC, it would trip after 6 seconds, on overcurrent and thermal, it would have taken 90 seconds. So you likely had a "DC", or short circuit trip. It would have been indicated by a red light flashing interval of 0.5s, that is .25s lit, 0.25s unlit.

You can also try, with the unit turned off, pressing "zone select" and "back" simultaneously and then press the power button to turn on the unit and see if it would still show you the fault.
 
N

njweb

Enthusiast
You are welcome. I have had 5 Denon AVRs and two Marantz AVPs and never had activated protection mode so I would agree yours were very unusual, probably a combination of the rug, you walked on it a lot prior, may be dragging your feed on rubber slippers/shoes and low humidity that day.

By the way, when I said instantaneous, it really wouldn't be the case because apparently if it was a short cct., or DC, it would trip after 6 seconds, on overcurrent and thermal, it would have taken 90 seconds. So you likely had a "DC", or short circuit trip. It would have been indicated by a red light flashing interval of 0.5s, that is .25s lit, 0.25s unlit.

You can also try, with the unit turned off, pressing "zone select" and "back" simultaneously and then press the power button to turn on the unit and see if it would still show you the fault.
Thanks for the additional details. This info is really helpful!
Yes, mine indeed definitely tripped right away as soon as I touched it.

It is a thick Berber rug and highly conducive (not conductive lol) to generating static electricity, especially when combined with the dry winter air (we also have forced air heating).
I believe I did drag my feet, but I wonder whether I had my shoes on or just socks on that time (wish I could recall that).

Too bad I (understandably) turned the AVR back on again within seconds of the ESD event while still standing over it; so I did not really get a chance to see / notice whether the light was flashing or not.
Let me try the 'zone select....' steps and report back regarding the outcome.

(edited to correct a few typos)

I found this nifty Excel sheet, but the 7013 is not listed - the 7012 and 6013 are listed, but they differ slightly for the steps needed to enter some of the special modes listed in the Excel sheet.

Never mind, dug a little further and found this newer version which includes the SR7013 as well.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Never mind, dug a little further and found this newer version which includes the SR7013 as well.
It says press "back" and "zone select", what I gave you was, "zone select and back".

You have to press it simultaneously so the two sequence are exactly the same lol..

While still pressing those two buttons, press the power button to turn it back on and it should display the fault that occurred last time. It will stay there until you clear the fault history. Again, I expect it to show either DC or ASO, based on what happened.
 
N

njweb

Enthusiast
It says press "back" and "zone select", what I gave you was, "zone select and back".

You have to press it simultaneously so the two sequence are exactly the same lol..

While still pressing those two buttons, press the power button to turn it back on and it should display the fault that occurred last time. It will stay there until you clear the fault history. Again, I expect it to show either DC or ASO, based on what happened.
Thanks. Yes, I got that (regarding simultaneously). :)
Let me try it in a few minutes if possible.

I just thought the sheet was useful for other things down the road (e.g. HDMI diagnostics, certain types of resets, memory backup and restore etc.) if needed.
 
N

njweb

Enthusiast
PS: Will the fault code display on the OSD (TV) and / or on the porthole display?
Or is it only on the 2-line display hidden behind the panel door?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
PS: Will the fault code display on the OSD (TV) and / or on the porthole display?
Or is it only on the 2-line display hidden behind the panel door?
The 2-line display only.

Yes that spreadsheet is very useful. I had downloaded one before but it was a lot shorter, might have been for Denon only and I can't find it any more so thanks for attached the most current one. The info I rely on has been the service manual (SR7012 in this case). The SR7012 should be the same but the spreadsheet you linked showed something different. I would trust the service manual's more if there is any discrepancies because obviously the spreadsheet had to be compiled by someone to include so many models, naturally more prone to errors.
 
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N

njweb

Enthusiast
The 2-line display only.

Yes that spreadsheet is very useful. I had downloaded one before but it was a lot shorter, might have been for Denon only and I can't find it any more so thanks for attached the most current one. The info I rely on has been the service manual (SR7012 in this case). The SR7012 should be the same but the spreadsheet you linked showed something different. I would trust the service manual's more if there is any discrepancies because obviously the spreadsheet had to be compiled by someone to include so many models, naturally more prone to errors.
I ran the protection history.
It just says as follows (two rows of the display):
PROTECT HISTORY
:NO PROTECT

I tried to use the control to scroll (just in case there was any additional info).

Given this ':NO PROTECT", is it possible that my surge protector kicked in instead of the AVR's protection and shut the AVR down Friday evening when I touched the front panel door?

Screenshot:
20210125_183014 SR7013 Protection History.jpg
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Given this ':NO PROTECT", is it possible that my surge protector kicked in instead of the AVR's protection and shut the AVR down Friday evening when I touched the front panel door?

Screenshot:
View attachment 44011
I couldn't find any detailed instruction manual for that Belkin surge protector. Typically those MOV would just absorb the energy during a surge and would not trip the breaker. So now this is going to be a mystery for me, are you sure you didn't accidentally clear the protection history? I guess unlikely because it would take a button press sequence including holding the enter button for 3 seconds.

May be something else activated the power on/off relay, something related to the CEC HDMI control thing, or the static discharge somehow activated (indirectly) the relay.
 
S

Speedskater

Audioholic Chief
Decades ago, the switches on the SoundStream digital recorder were sensitive to static! Quickly learned to touch the chassis before touching any of the switches.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
PS:
I would love to know, with some level of certainty, whether or not touching the front metal panel or front metal door, as a location, limits any electrical pulse's path /surge's path to just the chassis (as opposed to traveling to the internals (internal components such as circuitry and internal wiring etc.) of the receiver (directly or indirectly).
I guess an engineer or Marantz tech might have a good idea. :)

I thought I read something about this on a forum / online, but not sure.

I mean this as opposed to touching a metal connection at the back (speaker or HDMI input connection e.g.) which in turn directly connects to the internals (circuit boards, chips, wiring etc.); then you can almost guarantee the ESD event's pulse / surge will also travel to the connected internal components of the receiver.
The metal panels are connected to the chassis. Theoretically, if the static arcs to the chassis, the circuitry shouldn't be affected, but that would require total shielding & surge protection of the whole thing and since these need to hit a price point, that's not gonna happen.
 
N

njweb

Enthusiast
I couldn't find any detailed instruction manual for that Belkin surge protector. Typically those MOV would just absorb the energy during a surge and would not trip the breaker. So now this is going to be a mystery for me, are you sure you didn't accidentally clear the protection history? I guess unlikely because it would take a button press sequence including holding the enter button for 3 seconds.

May be something else activated the power on/off relay, something related to the CEC HDMI control thing, or the static discharge somehow activated (indirectly) the relay.
Thanks! Yes, I definitely did not clear the protection history and the only thing that appeared was in the photo I shared.
A mystery indeed then...

Despite using it a lot since I got it Friday evening, the only other time the AVR shut down by itself unexpectedly was yesterday evening when I manually selected 'check for updates' last night and got what I now know was a 'false' 'firmware is available' notification.
I should have ignored it since I had successfully updated it Friday, but clicked on' update firmware' in case something new had been posted and then the AVR shut down (it displayed a message that it would shut down for the update, but it shut down fully (not just in standby mode which would have had solid red indicator light next to the power button).
After 15 minutes I pulled the plug and put it back in and it booted up fine and when I checked for firmware again, it showed the latest version was installed (which I had ALREADY installed successfully Friday).

While everything with the AVR works fine other than this one-time firmware notification glitch (some kind of software bug or unstable AVR firmware code), I may reset the AVR to clean out any odd issues, especially since I suspect some eARC / HDMI CEC bug / glitch due to an apparent Android TV and / or Hulu app issue.
Too bad since I had it set up nicely in terms of settings and Audyssey which I reran yesterday for my Atmos speakers.

I did notice my Sony XBR77A9G TV (bought brand new in Dec. but eARC had never been used on it till Friday when I got the new receiver) has been acting up a bit since Sunday for the following audio issue (fixed with a TV restart, followed by a receiver power down etc):
Android menu navigation gets muted (supposed to have a clicking sound) and Hulu (and Amazon) sound stop accordingly at the same time (got a new Hulu app notification on the TV yesterday or Sunday night after the sound issue happened).
Note that the Netflix app audio on the TV still works fine even while Hulu (and Amazon?) do not, so I know it not a sound issue or HDMI cable issue; perhaps some issue with the TV's latest Android update only affects some apps and / or a potential eARC / CEC integration bug or power saver issue.
Or Hulu is the culprit.
I read about eARC issues online with this TV on reddit, but those were mostly in the past I thought (summer / fall before a Sony Dec firmware update).

Going to record my settings and probably reset both the TV and receiver. And I will also check all the TV's eARC / CEC / HDMI integration settings again. It may be due to a bug with a combination of settings I chose which it does not 'like'.
:)

Well, it looks like SEVERAL others also have audio issues with their A9G the past 2 or 3 days per another A/V forum, so there you go...
PS: Android on the TV and Hulu worked fine this morning.
When I get a chance, I am going to check all my HDMI / eARC / Bravis sync control settings again to be sure I have it all set up optimally... Then I will not reset unless the issue occurs again.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks! Yes, I definitely did not clear the protection history and the only thing that appeared was in the photo I shared.
A mystery indeed then...

Despite using it a lot since I got it Friday evening, the only other time the AVR shut down by itself unexpectedly was yesterday evening when I manually selected 'check for updates' last night and got what I now know was a 'false' 'firmware is available' notification.
I should have ignored it since I had successfully updated it Friday, but clicked on' update firmware' in case something new had been posted and then the AVR shut down (it displayed a message that it would shut down for the update, but it shut down fully (not just in standby mode which would have had solid red indicator light next to the power button).
After 15 minutes I pulled the plug and put it back in and it booted up fine and when I checked for firmware again, it showed the latest version was installed (which I had ALREADY installed successfully Friday).

While everything with the AVR works fine other than this one-time firmware notification glitch (some kind of software bug or unstable AVR firmware code), I may reset the AVR to clean out any odd issues, especially since I suspect some eARC / HDMI CEC bug / glitch due to an apparent Android TV and / or Hulu app issue.
Too bad since I had it set up nicely in terms of settings and Audyssey which I reran yesterday for my Atmos speakers.

I did notice my Sony XBR77A9G TV (bought brand new in Dec. but eARC had never been used on it till Friday when I got the new receiver) has been acting up a bit since Sunday for the following audio issue (fixed with a TV restart, followed by a receiver power down etc):
Android menu navigation gets muted (supposed to have a clicking sound) and Hulu (and Amazon) sound stop accordingly at the same time (got a new Hulu app notification on the TV yesterday or Sunday night after the sound issue happened).
Note that the Netflix app audio on the TV still works fine even while Hulu (and Amazon?) do not, so I know it not a sound issue or HDMI cable issue; perhaps some issue with the TV's latest Android update only affects some apps and / or a potential eARC / CEC integration bug or power saver issue.
Or Hulu is the culprit.
I read about eARC issues online with this TV on reddit, but those were mostly in the past I thought (summer / fall before a Sony Dec firmware update).

Going to record my settings and probably reset both the TV and receiver. And I will also check all the TV's eARC / CEC / HDMI integration settings again. It may be due to a bug with a combination of settings I chose which it does not 'like'.
:)

Well, it looks like SEVERAL others also have audio issues with their A9G the past 2 or 3 days per another A/V forum, so there you go...
I hope you are using the App to run Audyssey, then you can save as many curves as you wish.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I couldn't find any detailed instruction manual for that Belkin surge protector. Typically those MOV would just absorb the energy during a surge and would not trip the breaker. So now this is going to be a mystery for me, are you sure you didn't accidentally clear the protection history? I guess unlikely because it would take a button press sequence including holding the enter button for 3 seconds.

May be something else activated the power on/off relay, something related to the CEC HDMI control thing, or the static discharge somehow activated (indirectly) the relay.
And even then (WRT the MOVs), I think the surges are only absorbed going in through the power cord since they would have a more difficult path coming in from somewhere after the power supply. Plus, if the surge starts on the chassis, it would likely bypass the protection since the MOVs direct the surges to the chassis and ground, AFAIK.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I hope you are using the App to run Audyssey, then you can save as many curves as you wish.
Does the app actually store settings, or does it access the stored settings in the AVR? If it's the latter, a hard reset will/might delete them.

Denon used to allow saving the config file to a computer by accessing the menu using the AVR's IP address- I really think they should bring that back.
 
N

njweb

Enthusiast
I hope you are using the App to run Audyssey, then you can save as many curves as you wish.
I will be using it.
I hope you are using the App to run Audyssey, then you can save as many curves as you wish.
Thanks for the reminder. Yes, I was planning to use the app. Maybe later today.
Just to be sure we're talking about the same app - 'Audyssey MultEQ Editor' is the one I am referring to. The $19.99 one.
 
N

njweb

Enthusiast
And even then (WRT the MOVs), I think the surges are only absorbed going in through the power cord since they would have a more difficult path coming in from somewhere after the power supply. Plus, if the surge starts on the chassis, it would likely bypass the protection since the MOVs direct the surges to the chassis and ground, AFAIK.
Yes, I was thinking the same in fact regarding the surge protector detecting issues from the AC power supply and not (necessarily) issues (like ESD events e.g.) back from a device to it (i.e. to the protector).

But I was, and still am, deferring to those more knowledgeable on this subject than I. :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Does the app actually store settings, or does it access the stored settings in the AVR? If it's the latter, a hard reset will/might delete them.

Denon used to allow saving the config file to a computer by accessing the menu using the AVR's IP address- I really think they should bring that back.
It stores everything on the device that hosts the App, be it an iphone, Android phone/tablets etc.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I will be using it.


Thanks for the reminder. Yes, I was planning to use the app. Maybe later today.
Just to be sure we're talking about the same app - 'Audyssey MultEQ Editor' is the one I am referring to. The $19.99 one.
Yes, that's the one.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
And even then (WRT the MOVs), I think the surges are only absorbed going in through the power cord since they would have a more difficult path coming in from somewhere after the power supply. Plus, if the surge starts on the chassis, it would likely bypass the protection since the MOVs direct the surges to the chassis and ground, AFAIK.
Absorb is actually not the best description, but that seems to have been often used in online articles. Imo, its more like "divert", or better still don't save words but call it what it is, such as...providing a low impedance path, like a short circuit....to ground (in the OP's case, that Belkin thing) so the voltage would drop very rapidly...

For beginners (obviously not you:)):
Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV) – Working, Application, Design Tips and Selection Guide (components101.com)
 

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