Receiver for 4 ohm speakers

[wmitty]

Hi

I am considering the Denon 3806 and the 4806 for my 5.1 surround system consisting of Vienna Acoustics Schoenbergs for fronts, and Weberns for surrounds (4 ohm, 91 db sensivity). The sub is a B&W PV1. Separates not an option at present due to space reasons. Can anyone please tell me if either of these receivers has enough power to drive these speakers to moderate volumes in a 25' by 20' room?

Thanks

W.M

 

[tdeluce]

Hi

I am considering the Denon 3806 and the 4806 for my 5.1 surround system consisting of Vienna Acoustics Schoenbergs for fronts, and Weberns for surrounds (4 ohm, 91 db sensivity). The sub is a B&W PV1. Separates not an option at present due to space reasons. Can anyone please tell me if either of these receivers has enough power to drive these speakers to moderate volumes in a 25' by 20' room?

Thanks

W.M

If you like to listen at anything close to reference levels
I would go with the 4806...

 

[gene]

you should be fine since they have high sensitivity. I recommend setting all speakers to small with xover around 70-80Hz, especially since they aren't full range speakers. This will save on amp power. Go with the 4806 if your budget/space allows for it since it sounds like you can't run a separate amp down the road.

 

[PENG]

In the FAQ section, Denon claims that their receivers can drive 4 ohm speakers. I am not sure about the 3806 but I would say the 4806 has enough power to drive your 91 dB speakers.

 

[ironlung]

What about 4ohm speakers with lower sensitivity? Like my Polk LSi15 I believe they are 88db or 89db. Are the Denon 4306 or Yamaha 2600 capable of reasonable SPL in a 12' x 16' x 8' room (aprox)? I think I might be stuck with needing a seperate amp or amps for the mains at least. 58XX series Denon is out of buget range.

Thanks in advance.

 

[PENG]

For the LSi15, I would say do your Denon a favor, get an amp for the mains. With external help the Denon would at least run cooler.

 

[ironlung]

For the LSi15, I would say do your Denon a favor, get an amp for the mains. With external help the Denon would at least run cooler.

Thank you for the reply.

What speakers do you run? Are you saying the recievers I listed can't produce distortion free reference level SPL in the room size I listed. Could a Denon 4806 get the job done? Any one running a similar setup?

 

[Bevan]

NAD receivers seem to be the best in their price range at handling 4ohm loads, so i've been told. i know even the 753 can handle dynaudios(4ohm/86db)

they major on sound quality but minor on features, ymmv

 

[hunnybunny2383]

If you like to listen at anything close to reference levels
I would go with the 4806...

I second that notion. The 4806 does have the power reserves to run a 4 ohm load. I have the 4806 and it runs my RBH 61 LSE's with ease and excellent control. Besides if you dont use surround back speakers you can by amp them to your main front speakers. I highly recommend this receiver best on my experience with it.

 

[PENG]

Thank you for the reply.

What speakers do you run? Are you saying the recievers I listed can't produce distortion free reference level SPL in the room size I listed. Could a Denon 4806 get the job done? Any one running a similar setup?

My front speakers are Veritas 2.3i, 87 dB sensitivity. The impedance of the Veritas are 8 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum. My 3805 can drive them, but I added an external amp just to help it run cooler.

I listened to both the LSi15 and the RTi10 several times. Even the 8 ohm RTi did not seem to sound good unless it was driven by a reasonably powerful receiver/amp such as a HK630 or Denon 3805. Your room is not that big, so something like a Denon 3805/6 or Yamaha RX-V2500/2600 should be able to do the job but they will likely run hot due to the higher current demand from the 4 ohm LSi. The 4806 will have easier time due to its more robust power supply and amps. The 4806 weighs 52.5 lbs.

 

[knownalien]

What about 4ohm speakers with lower sensitivity? Like my Polk LSi15 I believe they are 88db or 89db. Are the Denon 4306 or Yamaha 2600 capable of reasonable SPL in a 12' x 16' x 8' room (aprox)? I think I might be stuck with needing a seperate amp or amps for the mains at least. 58XX series Denon is out of buget range.

Thanks in advance.

you can bi-amp the LSi15's with the 3806 AND 4806. I don't know why no one mentions this! you don't NEED a seperate amp.

 

[PENG]

you can bi-amp the LSi15's with the 3806 AND 4806. I don't know why no one mentions this! you don't NEED a seperate amp.

It may be because it is not that simple to biamp.

 

[teloiv]

I've killed two RX-V2500s. The first I was running all 7 speakers (7CH stereo I think). I have two Boston VR1s wired in parallel for my center - effective 4-Ohm. The second time I was running in 2CH stereo. My FL and FR are Boston VR2. My basement is around 1500 sq ft and I had the volume moderately loud.

My feeling is that the amp on this (and hence the 2600) is not really robust enough to handle low impedence loads or sustained demanding music loads. I am sure it would be fine for loud HT purposes.

 

[PENG]

I've killed two RX-V2500s. The first I was running all 7 speakers (7CH stereo I think). I have two Boston VR1s wired in parallel for my center - effective 4-Ohm. The second time I was running in 2CH stereo. My FL and FR are Boston VR2. My basement is around 1500 sq ft and I had the volume moderately loud.

My feeling is that the amp on this (and hence the 2600) is not really robust enough to handle low impedence loads or sustained demanding music loads. I am sure it would be fine for loud HT purposes.

I agree, you can do it with the 2500/2600 in a smaller room, and you still have to be really careful with overheating. The protective circuit cannot save the day every time. The 3805/6 do seem to have a more robust power supply than the Yammie, but adding at least a two channel amp is the right thing to do.

 

[knownalien]

It may be because it is not that simple to biamp.

really??

you take off the jumpers on the speakers connecting all 4 binding posts. Go to your amp and find amp assignment and then tell it to use the surround backs amps as fronts. Then you connect speaker wire from the back of the receiver's surround back speakers to the bottom set of posts behind the speaker. Ofcourse, you won't have use of "zone 2" or 7.1 setups. You'll still have 5.1. If you use the 5805, you can bi-amp a whole 5.1 setup, except for the sub ofcourse!

quite simple, really.

 

[PENG]

really??

you take off the jumpers on the speakers connecting all 4 binding posts. Go to your amp and find amp assignment and then tell it to use the surround backs amps as fronts. Then you connect speaker wire from the back of the receiver's surround back speakers to the bottom set of posts behind the speaker. Ofcourse, you won't have use of "zone 2" or 7.1 setups. You'll still have 5.1. If you use the 5805, you can bi-amp a whole 5.1 setup, except for the sub ofcourse!

quite simple, really.

Yes, I agree it is quite simple in this case, as you describe it. There may be other considerations though, I read a few articles on this topic and I thought it could get more complicated when you consider other factors such as the effect on crossovers, and the power split between the drivers etc. If you search the web on this topic you will know what I mean. May be people are over complicated things, may be they have some valid points. I was tempted to try bi-amping my Veritas but I decided to wait until I understand more about it.

Thanks anyway.

 

[knownalien]

Yes, I agree it is quite simple in this case, as you describe it. There may be other considerations though, I read a few articles on this topic and I thought it could get more complicated when you consider other factors such as the effect on crossovers, and the power split between the drivers etc. If you search the web on this topic you will know what I mean. May be people are over complicated things, may be they have some valid points. I was tempted to try bi-amping my Veritas but I decided to wait until I understand more about it.

Thanks anyway.

i see your point. But I have researched this. Go here. You will notice that Polk says that this speaker is bi-ampable. So, what's the case for every speaker? Who knows. But I was speaking specifically to the LSi15's. It sure would be a laugh if there was some guy who knew more about Polk speakers than what Polk posts on their web site.

 

[hunnybunny2383]

It may be because it is not that simple to biamp.

On the 4806 all amp designations are handle via the osd. As a matter of fact you cant run the room eq without assigning the amplifiers

 

[nibhaz]

i see your point. But I have researched this. Go here. You will notice that Polk says that this speaker is bi-ampable. So, what's the case for every speaker? Who knows. But I was speaking specifically to the LSi15's. It sure would be a laugh if there was some guy who knew more about Polk speakers than what Polk posts on their web site.

Where's Buckeyefan 1? He's done the measurements, and I believe he actually does know more than Polk when it comes to what they post on their website. Those 8ohm ratings on the upper RTi series appear to be a little misleading, try a little closer to 4ohm. Search the forums and you’ll see what I’m getting at.

 

[PENG]

i see your point. But I have researched this. Go here. You will notice that Polk says that this speaker is bi-ampable. So, what's the case for every speaker? Who knows. But I was speaking specifically to the LSi15's. It sure would be a laugh if there was some guy who knew more about Polk speakers than what Polk posts on their web site.

When I commented that biamping was not that simple I was mistakingly thinking in terms of sound quality improvement. Bi-amping in its simple way (removing those straps only and leave the internal crossover network alone) does deal with the issue of " having enough power.........", and that's what wmitty is asking about in the first place. To bi-amp with a 3806 he will be using all 7 channels, with 4 of them driving his 4 ohm Schonberg speakers to "moderate volumes" in his relatively large room. The 3806 could run pretty hot, depending on how he defines "moderate volumes". He may not need an amp, but it is better he gets one, or go for the more robust 4806. Also, it gets more difficult if those Schonbergs are not terminated to facilitate bi-amping.

As an aside, and in terms of sound quality, I still have more questions than answers about biamping. One of the articles I read on this topic has the following to say:

"Biamping:

There are some benefits if you are biamping with identical amps in the system. By doing so, you are now driving the speakers with double the power (3dB more headroom). This may help in bass response, dynamics, and overall fidelity. Another benefit is electrical isolation between highs and lows of the speaker system as they are independently connected to separate amplifiers. This has the potential to reduce crosstalk and mutual inductance, assuming the chokes in the crossovers are isolated and the speaker cables are well separated from each other. However, if you amp is already beefy and accommodates your speakers and room and listening environment, than stay with what you have. Most audible differences are subtle if at all noticeable. The true benefits of bi-amping cannot be realized with passive crossover networks of a speaker system. Bi-amping truly shines when parts of the passive network of the speaker system is replaced by active networks where each amplifier is bandwith limited at the input. For more detailed information about bi-amping, we recommend reading the following article Benefits of Bi-Amping from Elliot Sound Products".

Here's the link:
http://www.audioholics.com/FAQs/000524_biamping_biwiring.php for the article.

Of course Polk knows best about their own speaker, and the LSi 15’s are terminated to facilitate bi-amping, but it is not relevant to others expressing their views on the “true benefits” of bi-amping.

I know I am making a point that is irrelevant to what the original poster is asking, I just want to clarify where my first response was coming from. It was a mistake on my part.