Receiver Demo

[Buckeyefan 1]

Thought I'd post a friend's journey this past weekend searching for a new receiver. He's upgrading his Denon 2802. He's been into audio at least as long as I have, so I can vouch for him (he's a new member here - Jfabes). Just keep in mind, it's all personal taste.

"I listened to the Elite 74txi, Yammy 2500 and 4600 and the Denon
3805/3806. I toggled though all the menus and made sure the eq's were at 0, the x-over was set at 120, bass and treble both at 0, no sub, direct
stereo. I did all the comparisons on the RTi10's (I think those are yours) -
and all the receivers were on a switchboard so I was able to go back
and forth. I played various cd's off the Denon 1720 dvd player, plus
movie intro's from U571, Gladiator and a few others. This is the bottom line.

Denon was up first, sounded as expected since I hadn't heard anything
else yet. Good highs, soft but graciously present, great lows - I was
impressed with the bass on those towers. Clean sounding overall, not
bright or harsh at all.

At the same volume level of -25.0, the Elite was the same
loudness.......but sounded so "bland" as if they forgot everything over 20kHz and everything under 1kHz!!!!!! It was all mid bass and mid range. It
actually sounded like there was something wrong with the receiver. It wasn't
as noticeable on Sade, but Fiona Apple was a huge difference. It sounded "cheap".

Switching to the Yammy 4600, the sound improved from the Pioneer, but
not by much. I noticed a little more low end, but the midrange was still
blaring. Where were those soft vocals of Fiona's voice?? It was all
midrange. At the same volume level, the Yammy seemed louder. Switching to
the 2500, I could't hear any difference.

Going back to the 3806, it was like someone hooked up a different set
of speakers. The music just came alive.....like "oh, there's the highs
AND lows that were missing". To keep check, I hit the 3805 and it was
identical to the 3806 as expected.

So, for me, I rate them Denon, Yammy, Elite. Yammy's are supposed to be
geared more towards music, and Elite towards movies, but I still
thought the Denon sounded the best on everything."

 

[MacManNM]

Well I don't know how accurate that assessment is. The real problem is that I don't think he gave the other receivers a fair shot. Reading the level on the volume means nothing, and saying it sounded the same loudness is unreliable as well. Those speakers (if I remeber correctly) didn't start to sound really good good until you turned them up. If he was listening right around that point, then there is a really good chance that the Yammie, and the Pioneer have been short changed.

 

[shokhead]

Well I don't know how accurate that assessment is. The real problem is that I don't think he gave the other receivers a fair shot. Reading the level on the volume means nothing, and saying it sounded the same loudness is unreliable as well. Those speakers (if I remeber correctly) didn't start to sound really good good until you turned them up. If he was listening right around that point, then there is a really good chance that the Yammie, and the Pioneer have been short changed.

Sounds pretty evenly fair to me. I would have then played and tweaked all of them to sound there best and compare that also.

 

[MacManNM]

Sounds pretty evenly fair to me. I would have then played and tweaked all of them to sound there best and compare that also.

You can not use the level on the volume control to set levels for listening. The proper way to do it is with a SPL meter and cal disk, then perform a comparison.

 

[mark4mich]

I would like to know how he thought the 3805 and 3806 compared to the original 2802.

 

[rgriffin25]

With my experience the Pioneers sound better after calibration. I didn't see anything describing room acoustics or speaker placement either. I wonder how they would stack up if it was a blind test?

 

[jcPanny]

Speaker test

Research by the NRC in Canada has shown that both trained and untrained listeners will select the loudes speaker (or receiver) as the best.

I was also suprised to see such a high crossover setting on a pretty full range speaker. The performance difference could be related to the slope of the crossover. The steepest slope limited the mid performance of the speaker most and sounded the worst.

Testing by Audioholics and others has shown the Yamaha and Denon to be very transparent, so difference in performance might be related to the quality of the setup.

 

[shokhead]

You can not use the level on the volume control to set levels for listening. The proper way to do it is with a SPL meter and cal disk, then perform a comparison.

Right. I'm thinking the RS meter would work real well in the room of silence.

 

[MacManNM]

Right. I'm thinking the RS meter would work real well in the room of silence.

Hence the cal disk part.

 

[Dezoris]

There is nothing wrong with subjective reviews like this except everyone is different so it's hard to take it as truth, although I have to say out of the box the Denon sounds brighter and a bit more lifelike.

But who just plugs in their reciever and does not calibrate?
Obviously the people who buy recievers based on out of the box sound.

 

[mulester7]

out of the box the Denon sounds brighter and a bit more lifelike.

.....Dezoris, were I considering surround receivers, comments like this would stand out to me....it's all about "clean" and "lifelike".....


Transparency

A subjective term used in audio to indicate how easily and how much of the sound of the live event comes through a recording when played through an audio system. Systems with a high level of transparency, a good thing, enable the listener to hear more of the live event.

Transparency simply means that the electronics used to reproduce the sound do not discolor it with their own sounds but instead “move out of the way” to let the sound of the event come through. A highly transparent system may let a listener hear a musician take a breath before singing a line while a more muddied, non-transparent system would not allow the listener to hear such subtlety.

Transparency is a combination of all the components in an audio system working in concert to achieve an end result. While a given amplifier may be extremely transparent on its own, if it is used to drive a muddy speaker, the end result will not be a transparent system. Think of transparency as looking through a window – on the other side of the window is the band; with a transparent system you can easily see the band and watch them play in full detail, however, with a dirty window (less transparency) it is more difficult to make out the band and the details.

http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/dictionary.asp?dictionaryid=453&term=Transparency

 

[MacManNM]

Nice Ronnie.

I do believe that most of these new receivers sound very similar, not like the old days when you went to a store and really could hear and feel differences with the equipment. I don't know that they are "transparent" as much as they are all almost identical in build and design, therefore all sound similar. Just my 2c.

 

[j_garcia]

I'd tend to agree with that. Seems that, either my ears are changing, or more receivers manufacturers are gravitating towards neutral, which is fine by me. that means they are going to need to rely on features and power, as well as quality (hopefully), to sell their products.

I'd have to also say though that I agree with MacMan saying the comparison was flawed. When I audition a receiver, I turn off all processing, tone controls, everything I can find, and listen in 2ch stereo, full range. Take into account if the receiver is hooked up digitally or analog and the speakers used.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You can not use the level on the volume control to set levels for listening. The proper way to do it is with a SPL meter and cal disk, then perform a comparison.

We can agree on many things, it appears

 

[mtrycrafts]

out of the box sound.

Not sure what you mean by this.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Research by the NRC in Canada has shown that both trained and untrained listeners will select the loudes speaker (or receiver) as the best.

I was also suprised to see such a high crossover setting on a pretty full range speaker. The performance difference could be related to the slope of the crossover. The steepest slope limited the mid performance of the speaker most and sounded the worst.

Testing by Audioholics and others has shown the Yamaha and Denon to be very transparent, so difference in performance might be related to the quality of the setup.

I asked him about the crossover setting. Here is his reply:

I actually didn't set that because the rep told me all the receivers were already set to "large" because there was nothing in the room smaller than your (Polk RTi10) speakers. All were bigger towers. Besides, what would that have to do with the high/mid end??? I can call him and clarify....

 

[mulester7]

Research by the NRC in Canada has shown that both trained and untrained listeners will select the loudes speaker (or receiver) as the best.

.....JCPanny, some speakers you can't take as loud as others before they shoot craps and sound offensive....I still say, even with a couple of db's difference in the spl levels, you can hear sound quality one over another....add serious watts to hear them at their best, by the way, haha....and buy bonds!......

 

[Snap]

Not quite sure who said it, but I agree that people in general think that the loudest clearest sound is the better of the 2. I have also hear people use the volume as a poor mans calibration tool. One of the many problems is....-35 on a Denon is NO place near the same DB on a Yammy. Yammy actually goes into the positive. So if someone uses -15 for both that is a bias compairison. And one is going to loose when maybe it should not have.

I do not bring a SLP meter with me....Even one has that "sweet spot" they that just know. Turn up the tunes till it gets to the sweet spot and then listen.

Another thing that people have debated a bunch.....(people on both sides of this fence). But IMHO there are certian amps that sound better with certain speakers. I am not sure why...but it just does. TO ME ANYWAYS. Now there are some speakers that sound good with just about any receiver...but some midrange to lower midrange speakers just soundbetter with certian receivers.

 

[PENG]

I listened to the RTi10 many times in those small Future shop demo room. They need power to sound right. The least powerful receiver that could make it sound right for me was the HKAVR630. I am not surprised Buck's friend like the 3805 best. The 3805/6(assuming the 6 has the same output) is the most powerful of the group, and should have no problem driving those big towers in a small to medium sized room.

 

[mulester7]

I do not bring an SLP meter with me....Everyone has that "sweet spot" that they just know. Turn up the tunes 'till it gets to the sweet spot and then listen

.....for second reading.....