Receiver Advice?

[kasif@]

Hi, I am new at the forum. I will have B&W 683, 685, HTM61 and ASW610 5.1 set very soon. I am just looking for which AVR should I use with those? I gonna use it for 70% concert DVD, 20% stereo and 10% movie. The room where I will set the system is totally 40m2 but I will use app 18m2 of it for HT. Any help highly appreciated?

 

[bandphan]

I like the 1800.

your special

 

[PENG]

The Denon and Pioneer do not list a maximum that I see in the manuals, so some manufacturers must not list that then? I had assumed the power consumption listed in the manuals was the maximum, but maybe not...

Yamaha has only started to include the maximum power ratings in their manuals. Harman Kardon seems to have been doing it for a longer time. It is too bad that more manufacturers do not provide more detailed information. By skipping the details it makes it impossible for people to compare the specs on papers and those who tried often interpreted the numbers wrong and ended up misleading themselves and others.

I found that even lab measurements found in reviews are also not always reliable because they often show seemingly conflicting results. I don't know why but may be the tests were not done under the same conditions, but for whatever reasons, the reviewers did not seem to be bothered by some of those inexplicable results. Examples of conflicting results are found in some recent reviews by the S&V and HT mag, Home Cinema choice (used to be available online) on the Yamaha 657, 661, 663, 863, its UK equivalent, Onkyo 606, 875, 905, Integra DTR 8.8 Denon 3803, 4308 and the Pioneer VSX-94TXH, just to name a few.

I never put much faith in the published specs but now I also lost faith (not totally) in the lab measurements except for those published in the Audioholic reviews for the obvious reasons. That being said, I think comparing the power specs between the different models within the same product line is a safe bet as long as you are comparing class A/B to class A/B.

 

[PENG]

I am aware of the 3db gain formula. However, there is a very noticeable difference when using the 663 and using the 1800. Thus, the 1800 just flat-out sounds much better albeit louder and cleaner. Maybe I just want to use my discount on a better receiver.......LOL!!!!!

Phil

You know it depends!! I mean, you did not do a bias controlled test right? I have enough power reserve in my system but even when watching LOTR movies, at the SPL that I can enjoy without feeling a pain in my ears/brain, I am sure a 663 would have been more than enough. Regardless, I do think that more power is good and you cannot have too much of it but you can say the same about money. So I suggest you first make a list of your must have features. That may lead you to a quicker decision. Since you are already looking for more power, you should stay away from the 2308 CI because it does not have preouts that allow you to add an amplifier should you want more power again.

To me, the following features are a must (minimum):

- 3 or more HDMI 1.1 (but you will get 1.3a anyway)
- Ethernet port, WIFI if it is not easy to hide the cable
- Direct (Straight), Pure Direct modes
- Independent XO settings for front, center, surrounds
- Weighs at least 35 lbs if class AB
- High quality speaker binding posts
- Transformer hums inaudible from a couple of feet away

Features of no use to me:

HQV (Reon) - the BD player that I have in mind will do upconversion well enough anyway so I am not going to pay for the Reon. It would just sit there and produce heat (unless it can be turned off) that helps degrade the other electronic components. This analog to 1080p conversion thing is plain silly, I have SVHS and Hi8 but no matter what you do they are not going to look like even 720p never mind 1080p.

Toroidal transformer - everything being equal, it is preferable but there is nothing wrong with the conventional ones if you don't need the lighter weight, smaller size and the slightly better voltage regulations and efficiency then it is not a show stopper. They are supposed to be quieter too but it does not mean the standard types are noisy, some do and that's why I suggest you make sure you cannot hear the hum from two feet away.

THX certification - why pay for it?

Obviously you will have a different list.

One final point about power and sound quality, I am a firm believer in more power is better but if I am given the choice of a $5000 50WPC (say McIntosh or Luxman) amp or a $1000 200 WPC (say Rotel or NAD) amp for free, I would still take the $5000 50W amp. Of course I mean even if I am not allow to resell the free amp and must keep it for life. Don't ask me why though!

 

[speakerman39]

You know it depends!! I mean, you did not do a bias controlled test right? I have enough power reserve in my system but even when watching LOTR movies, at the SPL that I can enjoy without feeling a pain in my ears/brain, I am sure a 663 would have been more than enough. Regardless, I do think that more power is good and you cannot have too much of it but you can say the same about money. So I suggest you first make a list of your must have features. That may lead you to a quicker decision. Since you are already looking for more power, you should stay away from the 2308 CI because it does not have preouts that allow you to add an amplifier should you want more power again.

To me, the following features are a must (minimum):

- 3 or more HDMI 1.1 (but you will get 1.3a anyway)
- Ethernet port, WIFI if it is not easy to hide the cable
- Direct (Straight), Pure Direct modes
- Independent XO settings for front, center, surrounds
- Weighs at least 35 lbs if class AB
- High quality speaker binding posts
- Transformer hums inaudible from a couple of feet away

Features of no use to me:

HQV (Reon) - the BD player that I have in mind will do upconversion well enough anyway so I am not going to pay for the Reon. It would just sit there and produce heat (unless it can be turned off) that helps degrade the other electronic components. This analog to 1080p conversion thing is plain silly, I have SVHS and Hi8 but no matter what you do they are not going to look like even 720p never mind 1080p.

Toroidal transformer - everything being equal, it is preferable but there is nothing wrong with the conventional ones if you don't need the lighter weight, smaller size and the slightly better voltage regulations and efficiency then it is not a show stopper. They are supposed to be quieter too but it does not mean the standard types are noisy, some do and that's why I suggest you make sure you cannot hear the hum from two feet away.

THX certification - why pay for it?

Obviously you will have a different list.

One final point about power and sound quality, I am a firm believer in more power is better but if I am given the choice of a $5000 50WPC (say McIntosh or Luxman) amp or a $1000 200 WPC (say Rotel or NAD) amp for free, I would still take the $5000 50W amp. Of course I mean even if I am not allow to resell the free amp and must keep it for life. Don't ask me why though!

Wow Peng. Once again you kinda put things into perspective. You know, I appreciate the help you have given me over the long haul of things. Thus, you bring many interesting points that nailed it right on the head so to speak. I am beginning to narrow things down a bunch. Mucho gracias my friend.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Update!

Well, I just want to say thanks to all of you for offering me some great advice. I have just ordered the Denon 2808 CI receiver. It has everything I need in it and it appears to offer a few extra perks. Looking forward to using the Audyssey EQ. I also like the SQ of the Denons. Thanks once again guys!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Guys, did I not make a good decision? I just could NOT pass up the deal on the 2808 CI. This receiver is normally like $1200. Crutchfield had it for $689 and has now raised the price up to $800 for some reason. Onecall had it for $600. Turns out, I got the LAST one! Maybe the 2808 CI is not a night and day difference from the Yammie 663, but given the regular price of $1200 and only paying $600, I do NOT feel as though I am getting hurt. Any of you agree? Or, did I make a bad decision?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[PENG]

Well, too bad you asked.........My honest answer is, the 3808 is the best deal overall right now if it is true that you can get one for <1K. It doesn't have the Reon but I have no use for it anyway. In fact I turned off the video convert option in my 4308. Other than that it has everything else including the Ethernet port that allows you to do upgrades easily and enjoy free net music, plus lots of power. There is nothing wrong with the 2808 as long as you can live with only 2 HDMI, lack of Ethernet port, DDSC, HDCD, Denon Link and lower grade DACs. The 3808 will no doubt give you better sound quality too as long as you listen with your eyes open..

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Phil,

Given your budget restrictions this is the AVR that gives you the most bang for the buck at this price point....I was equally torn when decided whether it was worth it to spend the extra $$$$ on the 3808. If you got the unit for $600 from OneCall that's a great price and inline with the other discounts sellers were offering...

Now as for real upgrade over your Yamaha that is up for debate as some people will tell that Denon's are priced high to begin with when talking features vs. price comparison....I would think you are gaining really the tweaking features that you said you needed in crossovers and such....but in terms of power the gain will be nothing to write home about if even noticable....but I do prefer the sound of Denon so who knows....

Ultimately, if you are happy and your ears are happy---then you made the right decision!!! Congrats on the choice and enjoy....cheers!!!

 

[speakerman39]

Well, too bad you asked.........My honest answer is, the 3808 is the best deal overall right now if it is true that you can get one for <1K. It doesn't have the Reon but I have no use for it anyway. In fact I turned off the video convert option in my 4308. Other than that it has everything else including the Ethernet port that allows you to do upgrades easily and enjoy free net music, plus lots of power. There is nothing wrong with the 2808 as long as you can live with only 2 HDMI, lack of Ethernet port, DDSC, HDCD, Denon Link and lower grade DACs. The 3808 will no doubt give you better sound quality too as long as you listen with your eyes open..

Yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that the 3808 CI is a better receiver. Not too worried about the hdmi thing as my LCD has (3) hdmi inputs. I would loved to have gotten the 3808, but it was a bit out of my price range. As such, getting the 2808 CI for $600 I thought was a very good deal. Looking forward to getting it set-up. Maybe someday, I will be able to get a receiver on the level of the 3808. Until then, the 2808 will have to suffice. Thanks for your input.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Alex2507]

Guys, did I not make a good decision? I just could NOT pass up the deal on the 2808 CI. This receiver is normally like $1200. Crutchfield had it for $689 and has now raised the price up to $800 for some reason. Onecall had it for $600. Turns out, I got the LAST one! Maybe the 2808 CI is not a night and day difference from the Yammie 663, but given the regular price of $1200 and only paying $600, I do NOT feel as though I am getting hurt. Any of you agree? Or, did I make a bad decision?

Cheers,

Phil

Relax Phil. I will be more than happy to find room for that rec'r when you are done with it. All I really want out of A/V is what you are upgrading from and this Denon is no different. So $600 with a 33% depreciation and some frequent flyer miles from previous and on going deals make that Denon quite a bargain. I am going to love it.

Thanks for your concern,
Alex

PS: I'm still rockin' an old H/K. I need this Denon.

 

[speakerman39]

Relax Phil. I will be more than happy to find room for that rec'r when you are done with it. All I really want out of A/V is what you are upgrading from and this Denon is no different. So $600 with a 33% depreciation and some frequent flyer miles from previous and on going deals make that Denon quite a bargain. I am going to love it.

Thanks for your concern,
Alex

PS: I'm still rockin' an old H/K. I need this Denon.

Lmao.......falling out of my chair! You know Alex, you may have a point here buddy. If nothing else, you have given me a good laugh. That avatar has me LOL all the time anyways. How did you come up with that?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Phil,

Given your budget restrictions this is the AVR that gives you the most bang for the buck at this price point....I was equally torn when decided whether it was worth it to spend the extra $$$$ on the 3808. If you got the unit for $600 from OneCall that's a great price and inline with the other discounts sellers were offering...

Now as for real upgrade over your Yamaha that is up for debate as some people will tell that Denon's are priced high to begin with when talking features vs. price comparison....I would think you are gaining really the tweaking features that you said you needed in crossovers and such....but in terms of power the gain will be nothing to write home about if even noticable....but I do prefer the sound of Denon so who knows....

Ultimately, if you are happy and your ears are happy---then you made the right decision!!! Congrats on the choice and enjoy....cheers!!!

Thanks for the congrats. I agree, that the tweaking capabilities I am looking for the 2808 will provide. My goal was to get a bit more power. From what I have read, it appears that Denon is very conservative with respect to their power ratings. Therefore, I hope to gain just a bit more power. However, as you mentioned it surely will not be a day or night difference. I also like the way Denon sounds. It is true the 3808 would have been a better choice, but for what I paid for the 2808 I feel as though I did the right thing. At least, I hope I did. Now, it is time for a BR player.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[PENG]

Yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that the 3808 CI is a better receiver. Not too worried about the hdmi thing as my LCD has (3) hdmi inputs. I would loved to have gotten the 3808, but it was a bit out of my price range. As such, getting the 2808 CI for $600 I thought was a very good deal. Looking forward to getting it set-up. Maybe someday, I will be able to get a receiver on the level of the 3808. Until then, the 2808 will have to suffice. Thanks for your input.

Cheers,

Phil

True, if you have no use for any up conversion then you can get by with just 2 HDMI because you can hook things up directly to your TV. It is just that since you asked the question after you made the purchase; and under the assumption that you can cancel the order, I felt compelled to say something, but that's just my opinion. The way I see it (again just me), you have a very decent 663 yet you wanted something better so soon. So how long will you be satisfy with the 2808. If you bite the bullet (albeit a $400 bullet=not visiting star buck for 3 to 4months) now you will be good for at least 3 to 4 years. I am 90% confident that a 3808 owner will not regret his/her purchase because it has pretty much everything anyone needs/wants in a receiver.

ParadigmDawg returned his RX-V3800, bought the 3808 and seems to like it a lot so far, read his posts. Anyway, I know you have made an informed decision so I hope you can now focus on getting it set up and start enjoying it. Sorry if I distracted you.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Yes, the Dawg, who was a long time Yammy fanboy, loves his Denon!

 

[speakerman39]

True, if you have no use for any up conversion then you can get by with just 2 HDMI because you can hook things up directly to your TV. It is just that since you asked the question after you made the purchase; and under the assumption that you can cancel the order, I felt compelled to say something, but that's just my opinion. The way I see it (again just me), you have a very decent 663 yet you wanted something better so soon. So how long will you be satisfy with the 2808. If you bite the bullet (albeit a $400 bullet=not visiting star buck for 3 to 4months) now you will be good for at least 3 to 4 years. I am 90% confident that a 3808 owner will not regret his/her purchase because it has pretty much everything anyone needs/wants in a receiver.

ParadigmDawg returned his RX-V3800, bought the 3808 and seems to like it a lot so far, read his posts. Anyway, I know you have made an informed decision so I hope you can now focus on getting it set up and start enjoying it. Sorry if I distracted you.

No distraction at all. In fact, you make very interesting points. If it were not for the close-out price of $600, I would have ended up with the Elite-01 or the Pioneer 1018. With that in mind, I felt as though the Denon was every bit as good, if not, better. Looking forward to setting the 2808 up. As always, I may need your help before it is all said and done. You have helped me a bunch in the past and I really do appreciate it.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[PENG]

I assume you will save the two HDMI ports for your A3 and future BD player so you can enjoy the HD sound.

 

[Alex2507]

Lmao.......falling out of my chair! You know Alex, you may have a point here buddy. If nothing else, you have given me a good laugh. That avatar has me LOL all the time anyways. How did you come up with that?

Cheers,

Phil

Funny you should ask. With the help of Adam and Mikec I was able to learn how to download/upload pic's. Then this thread popped up:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45793

where I got to use that face for the powers of good. Not long after that somebody accused me of sporting a Nazi symbol in my previous avatar and I was asked to get rid of it. So after going through the five stages of grief I figured out how to downsize my monkey and now he is a joy and inspiration to all.

The end.

 

[speakerman39]

I assume you will save the two HDMI ports for your A3 and future BD player so you can enjoy the HD sound.

Depends on how well the BR player does with regular dvds. If it upscales as well as or even close to the A-3, then I will do away with my A-3. If not, then I will use the A-3 for regular dvds and the occasional HD dvd. Only time will tell.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Funny you should ask. With the help of Adam and Mikec I was able to learn how to download/upload pic's. Then this thread popped up:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45793

where I got to use that face for the powers of good. Not long after that somebody accused me of sporting a Nazi symbol in my previous avatar and I was asked to get rid of it. So after going through the five stages of grief I figured out how to downsize my monkey and now he is a joy and inspiration to all.

The end.

Lmao.........too funny Alex. Interesting stuff if you ask me!

Cheers,

Phil