Receiver Advice?

[speakerman39]

Guys, I really need some help. I have managed to sell my Yammie RX-V663 and need a new receiver. However, the main reason for selling the 663 was I wanted more power. I have the opportunity to get really good deals on the following receivers:
Onkyo 876
Onkyo 806
Elite SC-05
Elite -03
Elite-01
Pioneer 1018
Yamaha 1800
Yamaha 1700

I also have found some good deals on the Denon 2808-CI and the 2308 CI. If I went with the 2308, I would have to use the multi-channel inputs via bitstream from a future BR player. Thus, I have NOT jumped to BR just yet but plan to very soon. I just paid-off my Ascends. Can anyone here offer some insights on any of the following? Please be as specific as possible. Thank You!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[armaraas]

What are your speakers that you have?
I had the 03 in house for a while, and I have Aperion 6T's, 5C, and Axiom surrounds. I liked the 03 for function and looks, however if your looking for more power I don't know that I would recommend it at the top of your list (along with the 01 and 1018).

When I had it, I had the Phantom Menace playing at 0db, and while it was loud, I wasn't blown away that I thought I had to turn it down right away. Other movies I had up to around -10 pretty easily. Another thing I noticed was the the lower Pio's are rated at 390 watts for power consumption from the wall. That, I think- others can correct me if I'm wrong- tells me 1. they are efficient amps and great for saving money 2. they're not going to have a lot of power when driving more than a couple of channels. I seemed to have less headroom with it when compared to other receivers I had/tested.

Of course you may have more efficient speakers than me so your experience may vary. If you're really interested in it, I would recommend getting it from Best Buy or somewhere that it could be returned easily. Or if you can get a couple of different receivers in your house at a time that would be ideal, but may be hard to swing. I had the 03 and a Marantz 7002 at the same time, ended up with Denon.

 

[speakerman39]

What are your speakers that you have?
I had the 03 in house for a while, and I have Aperion 6T's, 5C, and Axiom surrounds. I liked the 03 for function and looks, however if your looking for more power I don't know that I would recommend it at the top of your list (along with the 01 and 1018).

When I had it, I had the Phantom Menace playing at 0db, and while it was loud, I wasn't blown away that I thought I had to turn it down right away. Other movies I had up to around -10 pretty easily. Another thing I noticed was the the lower Pio's are rated at 390 watts for power consumption from the wall. That, I think- others can correct me if I'm wrong- tells me 1. they are efficient amps and great for saving money 2. they're not going to have a lot of power when driving more than a couple of channels. I seemed to have less headroom with it when compared to other receivers I had/tested.

Of course you may have more efficient speakers than me so your experience may vary. If you're really interested in it, I would recommend getting it from Best Buy or somewhere that it could be returned easily. Or if you can get a couple of different receivers in your house at a time that would be ideal, but may be hard to swing. I had the 03 and a Marantz 7002 at the same time, ended up with Denon.

Thanks for your reply. However, I am in the audio industry and as such can NOT take it back. The reason, when I order it is mine no matter what due to the discount I get. My speakers are the Ascend Acoustics 340-M and the matching 340-C. My rears very soon will be the HTM200 SE's comprising a 5.2 in a 706 ft.^3 room. The Yammie 663 did a very good job, but find myself wanting more power. It does NOT have to be night and day difference, but noticeable nonetheless. Most of my list is what I can get very good deals on and a few I get an even better deal. However, some on the list is still expensive for my budget.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Gimpy Ric]

Your not going to notice much, if any difference between 95 wpc and 150 wpc. You have to double your wpc to perceive a 3 db gain in loudness. Best option would have been to keep the v663 and get a 2 channel amp, at least I think the 663 had preamp outs, if 2 channel music is where you found it lacking. Good luck though.

Ric

 

[armaraas]

Ric does have a good point, so I guess it begs the question, are you looking for more power specifically for 2 channel listening, or for movies? I was kind of thinking movies, but I may be wrong...

 

[speakerman39]

Your not going to notice much, if any difference between 95 wpc and 150 wpc. You have to double your wpc to perceive a 3 db gain in loudness. Best option would have been to keep the v663 and get a 2 channel amp, at least I think the 663 had preamp outs, if 2 channel music is where you found it lacking. Good luck though.

Ric

Thanks Gimpy for posting. I want more power when watching movies. For 2-CH the 663 was fine. It even did a good job when watching movies. I guess, I want a beefier receiver as well as one with more tweaking capabilities. I am aware of the 3db gain formula. However, there is a very noticeable difference when using the 663 and using the 1800. Thus, the 1800 just flat-out sounds much better albeit louder and cleaner. Maybe I just want to use my discount on a better receiver.......LOL!!!!!

For what I can get an 1800 for, I can also get the Elite-03 or the Denon 2808CI. Both the 876 and the SC-05 can be had for around the same price. However, really don't see much, if any, difference between the Elite-01 and the Elite-03. The 1018 looks very close to both of the 01/03, but does not have THX. The 1018 and the Elite-01 can be had for about the same price. I am more or less trying to get the best for what I have to spend. But, SQ is a BIG factor. Any ideas?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[armaraas]

The 663 is rated at 400 watts for power consumption, and here's some measurements- http://ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/608yam663/index7.html
Now assuming it's true that a regular receiver cannot effectively output more watts than it consumes (read that somewhere a while ago, don't remember where now), I would assume it's safe to say the Pio 01, 03 and 1018 will probably not have anymore power than the 663 with their 390 watts consumption. Of course that is an assumption, and I have not seen any measurements on them yet. And if my assumptions are wrong hopefully someone will correct me.

From what I've heard from others, the SC-05 might give you the additional power you're looking for since it is using the ICE amps, hopefully some owners can chime in. It's not anymore power hungry than the other Pioneers, but I believe the ICE amps are a different beast than the amps in the other receivers and much more efficient. How they work I cannot explain off the top of my head without researching them again.

Also the Onkyo 876 seems it may have pretty good power for 5-7 channels. I couldn't find anything on that one yet, but assuming they did not skimp on the amp quality from the previous model there's some mesurements here for the 875- http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2463/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr875-av-receiver.html

I have the Denon 3808 which has more than enough power for me and would probably work for you too, but since it wasn't on your list I cannot say how that would correspond to the 2808 you mentioned. Since the 2808 is being replaced by the 2809, you can probably get a great deal on it and I would think that would be a good value pick if it's anywhere near the 3808 in quality.

Those would be the top 3 I would try to find out more on from the ones you listed if it were me. When I got the 3808 I was limited on the height of the receiver, so the 876 and SC-05 were not even options for me.
Good luck with your decision, hopefully some more knowledgeable people will chime in this weekend.

 

[speakerman39]

The 663 is rated at 400 watts for power consumption, and here's some measurements- http://ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/608yam663/index7.html
Now assuming it's true that a regular receiver cannot effectively output more watts than it consumes (read that somewhere a while ago, don't remember where now), I would assume it's safe to say the Pio 01, 03 and 1018 will probably not have anymore power than the 663 with their 390 watts consumption. Of course that is an assumption, and I have not seen any measurements on them yet. And if my assumptions are wrong hopefully someone will correct me.

From what I've heard from others, the SC-05 might give you the additional power you're looking for since it is using the ICE amps, hopefully some owners can chime in. It's not anymore power hungry than the other Pioneers, but I believe the ICE amps are a different beast than the amps in the other receivers and much more efficient. How they work I cannot explain off the top of my head without researching them again.

Also the Onkyo 876 seems it may have pretty good power for 5-7 channels. I couldn't find anything on that one yet, but assuming they did not skimp on the amp quality from the previous model there's some mesurements here for the 875- http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2463/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr875-av-receiver.html

I have the Denon 3808 which has more than enough power for me and would probably work for you too, but since it wasn't on your list I cannot say how that would correspond to the 2808 you mentioned. Since the 2808 is being replaced by the 2809, you can probably get a great deal on it and I would think that would be a good value pick if it's anywhere near the 3808 in quality.

Those would be the top 3 I would try to find out more on from the ones you listed if it were me. When I got the 3808 I was limited on the height of the receiver, so the 876 and SC-05 were not even options for me.
Good luck with your decision, hopefully some more knowledgeable people will chime in this weekend.

Very insightful. It is much appreciated. I will keep this in mind. Just wished this wasn't so darn complicated.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

The Onkyo 806 looks promising. However, it is like 20 lbs. lighter than the 805.....wonder why??? What part was cut? Maybe it is not quite as beefy as it was?? The price is just right, but am concerned about the weight changes. That is why I was looking more at the 876 as there appears to be insignificant changes. Can anyone here elaborate on this?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[armaraas]

The Onkyo 806 looks promising. However, it is like 20 lbs. lighter than the 805.....wonder why??? What part was cut? Maybe it is not quite as beefy as it was?? The price is just right, but am concerned about the weight changes. That is why I was looking more at the 876 as there appears to be insignificant changes. Can anyone here elaborate on this?

Cheers,

Phil

That is a common question I've seen asked before, but I haven't seen a definitive answer given (I may have just missed it somewhere), but I think a lot of assumptions are its changes to the amps. Quite a few people recommend the 805 when someone asks about the 806, and since I don't know that much about those changes it's why I didn't bring it up here. Sorry, apparently you're stuck with just me tonight. If nothing else, we can make sure this topic stays at the top...

Are there any other specifiic features you need or want that some of the receivers may not have? Maybe it would help if you could eliminate some of them that way.

 

[CAVU]

The 663 is rated at 400 watts for power consumption

That is the average power consumption for the purposes of UL/CSA approval.

The manual clearly states that maximum power consumption is 850W.

This corresponds directly to the total rated output power of the 663 of 665W. The 663 is a Class A/B amplifier which has a nominal efficiency of 78.5%. (850*.785=667)

 

[armaraas]

Thanks for the correction then, I wasn't able to access the manual, it wanted me to create an account to download it, so I was going by the back of the receiver.
How is it stated in the manual then? Is it something other than just "Power Consumption"?

Nevermind, I found the manual on another site and see the Power Consumption and Maximum Power Consumption.
The Denon and Pioneer do not list a maximum that I see in the manuals, so some manufacturers must not list that then? I had assumed the power consumption listed in the manuals was the maximum, but maybe not...

 

[speakerman39]

That is a common question I've seen asked before, but I haven't seen a definitive answer given (I may have just missed it somewhere), but I think a lot of assumptions are its changes to the amps. Quite a few people recommend the 805 when someone asks about the 806, and since I don't know that much about those changes it's why I didn't bring it up here. Sorry, apparently you're stuck with just me tonight. If nothing else, we can make sure this topic stays at the top...

Are there any other specifiic features you need or want that some of the receivers may not have? Maybe it would help if you could eliminate some of them that way.

My guess would be that the changes in the 806 as compared to the 805 would be in the video processing capabilities. Of course, I could be wrong but the power ratings look more or less the same. Perhaps, the 805 was a bit too close to the 875 and as such Onkyo wanted to have a bigger gap in performance/options between the 806 and the 876 respectively speaking. At least, that would make more sense. Who really knows as I am more or less just throwing something out there so to speak. Can anybody here weigh in on this at all? Come on guys, I know there are several here that are always keep up with receivers/amps. Please help if you don't mind.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

That is the average power consumption for the purposes of UL/CSA approval.

The manual clearly states that maximum power consumption is 850W.

This corresponds directly to the total rated output power of the 663 of 665W. The 663 is a Class A/B amplifier which has a nominal efficiency of 78.5%. (850*.785=667)

Hello there, mind if I ask where you got your info? Can you post a link? It sounds like you know a good deal about receivers......care to weigh in a bit more? It would be most apprecaited.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Chopin_Guy]

If you are looking for more power and tuning capabilities then you had before then I would say that you should be looking at the Denon 3808 and up as well as the Onkyo 875/876 or the NR905/906....The 806 is definately out as they cut many corners with that update and even down-graded many components like the DAC's and clearly the amp section as well...

I cannot speak for the Yamahas or the Elites as I have never spent much time with them...in terms of the Yamaha I don't like their interfaces but you would know much better as a former owner...

The deals you found on the 2808ci and 2308ci would not be worth it unless you were considering adding an amp as well as they would provide you with no real improvement in terms of robustness...but they can be had so cheap right now ($595 for the 2808ci), that it would be fantastic to add a Rotel, Sunfire, or maybe Emotiva to it as well...And you can find good deals on Rotels and Sunfire as they both have new amp line coming out and the RMB-1075 / 1095 and Sunfire TGA -5200, 5400, 7200, and 7400 can all be found for good prices from dealers online...

Now all of that aisde if you are really looking for a stand-alone AVR I would really look at the 3808 in terms of a really well rounded performer in all catagories and if you really crave the headroom and robust power supply then your choice would have to be the Onkyo 875 line and up.....Hope this helps and there are just so many good choices and options within that--these decisions are hard to make...

 

[speakerman39]

I guess I have not been specific enough so here is the low down:

The Pioneer 1018 and the Elite-01 can be had for about the same price. So, what I am attempting to do is discern whether or not the Elite-01 is worth the price difference. From what I can tell, they are more or less the same except the Elite has a (2) year warranty and THX certification. Is the THX certification really that big a deal? Lastly, does the 1018 have as much power as the 1015? It seems like the 1015 was beefier. Kinda wished I had never gotten rid of it.

For a bit more, I can get a Denon 2808 CI or the Elite-03. Would the Denon be better than the 1018/Elite-01? Also, what makes the Elite-03 better than the Elite-01? I can not tell much of a difference. The Onkyo 806 would also be in this price range. How does it compare? I see that it weighs more so I assume it is beefier.

I can pay even more and get the Yamaha RX-V1800. I just love this receiver, but for a bit more I can get the Elite SC-05 or the Onkyo 876. You see, I need some help figuring this out. Care to chime in? The 1800 uses Anchor Bay processing whereas the Onkyo uses Reon. Then, to complicate things further the Elite employs the Ice amp technology. This is driving me crazy!

In closing, my goal is to obtain a bit more power than the Yamaha 663 offers as well as better calibration/processing capabilities. It is all about sound quality to me. My new Ascends are just amazing, so which one would you get? I really need them to sing!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Ok, well now it is clear in terms of how you are looking at this...From my own recent experience and I think most anyone will tell you this--It is going to be best to go ahead and law down the money and get the best unit that you can afford...epscially considering if you buy a really high quality AVR you can use it for years to come and if you really want to, even go more high-end by using it simply as a pre-pro in the future and adding external amplification...

That being said, and the models you are looking at you definately want to go with the top group in your list...the RX-V1800, Elite SC-05 and the Onkyo 876. Now as for which one this becomes the grey area, specs aside, in terms of sound quality. For me I would lean toward the Elite or the Onkyo....but you mentioned you really like the RX-V1800.

Overall in terms of what you said for power and processing the Onkyo is going the be the best bet as it will hands down punish the other two in terms of power and it has the Reon on-board. Of course, the Anchor Bay is known to be good as well, being that is what Oppo uses in their players.

All of these AVRs will sound better and provide finer tuning capabilities than your old Yamaha...and you have narrowed it down to a very fine list of AVRs which makes the decision even more subjective. Based on what you have said for you needs, I would put these units in this order of consideration:

1. Onkyo TX-SR876
2. Pioneer Elite SC-05
3. Yamaha RX-V1800

 

[rnatalli]

Sorry is this has been asked already, but why didn't you simply add an external amp?

 

[speakerman39]

Ok, well now it is clear in terms of how you are looking at this...From my own recent experience and I think most anyone will tell you this--It is going to be best to go ahead and law down the money and get the best unit that you can afford...epscially considering if you buy a really high quality AVR you can use it for years to come and if you really want to, even go more high-end by using it simply as a pre-pro in the future and adding external amplification...

That being said, and the models you are looking at you definately want to go with the top group in your list...the RX-V1800, Elite SC-05 and the Onkyo 876. Now as for which one this becomes the grey area, specs aside, in terms of sound quality. For me I would lean toward the Elite or the Onkyo....but you mentioned you really like the RX-V1800.

Overall in terms of what you said for power and processing the Onkyo is going the be the best bet as it will hands down punish the other two in terms of power and it has the Reon on-board. Of course, the Anchor Bay is known to be good as well, being that is what Oppo uses in their players.

All of these AVRs will sound better and provide finer tuning capabilities than your old Yamaha...and you have narrowed it down to a very fine list of AVRs which makes the decision even more subjective. Based on what you have said for you needs, I would put these units in this order of consideration:

1. Onkyo TX-SR876
2. Pioneer Elite SC-05
3. Yamaha RX-V1800

Thanks Chopin for your advice. I agree with just about everything you have said. However, the SC-05 does not seem to have anything overly special other than the Ice amps. It employs the Faroudja chip which from what most people say is a bit outdated. My guess is, with that kind of price-tage, I would be paying for the amp section. The 876 offers a lot of goodies so to speak, but not really sure if it is worth that much coin. Still trying to sort this out.........LOL!!!!! Right now, the 1800 looks prmising. But, have not made my decision just yet.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Sorry is this has been asked already, but why didn't you simply add an external amp?

Oh I can answer that. Quite simply-money.......LOL!!!! As always, I only have so much money to work with w/o going into great debt. I still owe on my LCD, but everything else is paid-off. I just want to get something that will do me for a good while. In other words, being future proof is also a determinant factor. Have any other ideas?

Cheers,

Phil