Rear speakers - are they really needed?

[michaelt]

I am new to HTs. So far I've had 2.1, and now thinking about 5.1.

Yesterday I bought 2 towers (to be front speakers) and one center speaker. Here are my observations:

Music through the towers only, in stereo mode, sounds fantastic. Really better than my original 2.1.

After adding speakers and switching the receiver to a surround mode - the majority of music (~90%) is still coming from the front speakers. But what really bad is that it seems that the rear speakers are not actually adding, it feels like they are kind-of "stealing" something from the front speakers. In other words, the towers don't shine as much as they do in stereo mode. Besides, I don't feel that "surround" effect much.

First I thought maybe the problem is with rear speakers, they might be not good. So I switched rear with front speakers - now the towers are my rear speakers. Still, I hear most of the music is coming from the front speakers. Yes, towers are better as rear speakers, but by really little.

It might be that the problem is with how the receiver distributes the sound among the speakers. I configured it so the towers are A, and the other pair is B - so by playing A and B together, in stereo mode, I can hear both pairs clearly, but it feels like they are now competing: each pair is trying to outshine the other. Besides, this is stereo mode, not a surround, so all sound effects in 5.1 movies won't stand out.

So I was wondering what suggestions do you guys have? So far it certainly feels that stereo is a winner, and I can't figure out if rear speakers are really needed.

Thanks in advance,

Michael.

 

[lsiberian]

I am new to HTs. So far I've had 2.1, and now thinking about 5.1.

Yesterday I bought 2 towers (to be front speakers) and one center speaker. Here are my observations:

Music through the towers only, in stereo mode, sounds fantastic. Really better than my original 2.1.

After adding speakers and switching the receiver to a surround mode - the majority of music (~90%) is still coming from the front speakers. But what really bad is that it seems that the rear speakers are not actually adding, it feels like they are kind-of "stealing" something from the front speakers. In other words, the towers don't shine as much as they do in stereo mode. Besides, I don't feel that "surround" effect much.

First I thought maybe the problem is with rear speakers, they might be not good. So I switched rear with front speakers - now the towers are my rear speakers. Still, I hear most of the music is coming from the front speakers. Yes, towers are better as rear speakers, but by really little.

It might be that the problem is with how the receiver distributes the sound among the speakers. I configured it so the towers are A, and the other pair is B - so by playing A and B together, in stereo mode, I can hear both pairs clearly, but it feels like they are now competing: each pair is trying to outshine the other. Besides, this is stereo mode, not a surround, so all sound effects in 5.1 movies won't stand out.

So I was wondering what suggestions do you guys have? So far it certainly feels that stereo is a winner, and I can't figure out if rear speakers are really needed.

Thanks in advance,

Michael.

1. there are no rear speakers in a 5.1 setup(only sides). I repeat there are no rear speakers in a 5.1 setup. Please go to Dolby.com to get the proper angles for 5.1 speakers in a surround sound setup. Some recievers will allow you to set surrounds in the rears, but it isn't where they are intended to go.

2. Every receiver I've ever used including cheap ones have a stereo(2 channel mode) and many have modes for specific kinds of music too. I suggest you run the system in stereo mode for music and surround mode for movies.

3. Speakers aren't really needed, but for true surround sound it is wanted. I personally run a 7.1 setup and love it for movies, but often times I will use a stereo mode for music.

I hope you understand a little better now.

 

[john72953]

I'm a little confused my friend! Are you speaking of 2 channel music or BD movies?

In any event, most of the sound is going to come from your fronts and centre, with the rears and surrounds providing that extra incorporated into the soundtrack. So if you're watching a movie...a 5.0 up to a 7.1 setup is well worth it.

If you're listening to 2-channel music, why would you want anything coming out of your rears or surounds anyway?

Maybe I'm not understanding the question properly.

John

 

[michaelt]

lsiberian, thanks for so much feedback so quick ;-)

there are no rear speakers in a 5.1 setup(only sides).

Yes, that's what I meant - I referred to the surround side speakers, just used a wrong word I guess.

I suggest you run the system in stereo mode for music and surround mode for movies.

I thought that surround couldn't make music sound worse, could it?

One more thought. Maybe when you buy HT-in-a-box, all speakers are matched. Perhaps each single speaker in it doesn't have a wide range, but when they are played together - they cover tons of range. In that case buying a top-of-the-line speaker with a very broad range that sounds fantastic on its own, is not a great idea for 5.1 system because the receiver will allocate only a certain range to it anyway. What do you guys think of this?

 

[john72953]

lsiberian, thanks for so much feedback so quick ;-)



Yes, that's what I meant - I referred to the surround side speakers, just used a wrong word I guess.



I thought that surround couldn't make music sound worse, could it?

One more thought. Maybe when you buy HT-in-a-box, all speakers are matched. Perhaps each single speaker in it doesn't have a wide range, but when they are played together - they cover tons of range. In that case buying a top-of-the-line speaker with a very broad range that sounds fantastic on its own, is not a great idea for 5.1 system because the receiver will allocate only a certain range to it anyway. What do you guys think of this?

2-channel music regardless of source (vinyl, CD, tape) should be played in 2-channel and NOT matrixed over multple speakers. And it doesn't matter if you have a HTIB or seperates.

John

 

[Shock]

I usually have my rears and fronts play the same stereo sound giving me more emersion. But stereo will sound much better than if you let Dolby Prologic try to simulate surround sound.

 

[markw]

I don't really under stand your premise.

The source material should determine how it's played back. IMNSHO. it should be played back in the mode in which it was recorded.

Since most music seems to be recorded in two channels, if you force your receiver to play it back in more channels it's going to be forced to "kerfutz" with the original two caannels and somehow create the illusiuon that it was recorded in five or more. The results are, IMNSHO, less than stellar andeoes result in a smearing of the sounds. My preference is to listen in two channels.

Now, if it were recorded (or released) in mult-channel format, it goes beyond a musical performance and is becomes something of aperformance art in itself. This might work well if "they" wanted to create a swirling mass of sounds all around, but again wether this works or not depends on how well the artist pulled it off and the loisteners personal tastes.

Movies, OTOH sound good in two channels but most seem to benefit from the full-blown five (or more ) channel experience. After all, this is how many were designed and even the older ones seem to respond quite well to DPL and the like. After all, the surround channels are used mainly for ambiance as opposed to being the star of the show.

But, given my druthers I'd rather listen to a multi-channel movie in two channels than a strereo musical recording in a kludged multi-channel mode.

 

[john72953]

The source material should determine how it's played back. IMNSHO. it should be played back in the mode in which it was recorded.

Since most music seems to be recorded in two channels, if you force your receiver to play it back in more channels it's going to be forced to "kerfutz" with the original two caannels and somehow create the illusiuon that it was recorded in five or more. The results are, IMNSHO, less than stellar andeoes result in a smearing of the sounds. My preference is to listen in two channels.

Now, if it were recorded (or released) in mult-channel format, it goes beyond a musical performance and is becomes something of aperformance art in itself. This might work well if "they" wanted to create a swirling mass of sounds all around, but again wether this works or not depends on how well the artist pulled it off and the loisteners personal tastes.

Movies, OTOH sound good in two channels but most seem to benefit from the full-blown five (or more ) channel experience. After all, this is how many were designed and even the older ones seem to respond quite well to DPL and the like. After all, the surround channels are used mainly for ambiance as opposed to being the star of the show.

But, given my druthers I'd rather listen to a multi-channel movie in two channels than a strereo musical recording in a kludged multi-channel mode.

+1.

Stereo = 2-channel

Multi-channel = 2.1 channels and up!

Matrixing = Mindf***!

John

 

[michaelt]

That's interesting to me. I was under impression that surround for stereo is something like upconverting - like in videos: 480p to 1080i. But I am getting your point guys...

I usually have my rears and fronts play the same stereo sound giving me more emersion.

When I connect the speakers to my receiver as 5.1 then STEREO MODE means that only front speakers are on, all others are off. SURROUND MODE for a stereo source runs Dolby Pro Logic II processor to make surround effect, but I believe there is no way to have the receiver play original stereo on both front and side speakers (unless I rewire side speakers as speakers B, and turn on both A and B together). Do some receivers have this surround-stereo mode?

 

[john72953]

That's interesting to me. I was under impression that surround for stereo is something like upconverting - like in videos: 480p to 1080i. But I am getting your point guys...



When I connect the speakers to my receiver as 5.1 then STEREO MODE means that only front speakers are on, all others are off. SURROUND MODE for a stereo source runs Dolby Pro Logic II processor to make surround effect, but I believe there is no way to have the receiver play original stereo on both front and side speakers (unless I rewire side speakers as speakers B, and turn on both A and B together). Do some receivers have this surround-stereo mode?

WRONG! Stereo is stereo. You'd be getting double-stereo in effect, but it's still just a form of matrixing the orginal content.

Don't fight this....listen to everything in its original intended format and you'll get the best experience. PERIOD! END OF DISCUSSION!

 

[MatthewB.]

I agree, music should be in two channel stereo, unless specifically mixed for Multichannel (like DVD-A, SACD or DVD 5.1) I find that regular stereo sources switched to surround sound is not very good, but music in SACD or DVD-A is breathtaking in surround sound. I highly recommed Elton Johns "GoodBye Yellow Brick Road in SACD or Pink Floyds "Pulse" DVD to hear what good surround sound music is. I also recommend calibrating your speakers with a radio shack sound meter to also do the most to get a blanaced sound out of each speaker in the main sitting position.

 

[michaelt]

99.9% of all music is stereo. Today I went to Fry's and had a hard time finding SACD or Audio DVDs. Yesterday I decided to test my first 5.1 system, so I grabed a DVD - it was "Wag the Dog". I purposely disconnected the central channel, so I could get an idea how other 4 speakers are used. In this particular movie - 2-3% for all 4 (!), I estimate less than 0.1% for the side speakers.

Ok, this was probably not the best movie to test, but it made me feel very happy because the central speaker is my most expensive one ;-)

So this brings me back to the original question of this posting - are rear speakers really needed? For music - no, for movies - very little, 3.1 is just about near the perfection.

Honestly this is somewhat surprises me because pretty much all 5.1 systems are sold with rear speaker that are almost as good (if not identical) as the the front speakers, yet they have extremely limited use. Rear speakers that cost several hundreds dollars - what is the point?

 

[Niko084]

I really love using side and rear speakers when using a DSP because it allows the music to sound more rich and full without needing massive volume to create the same effect.

So I think while they are not "needed" for music unless you are re-creating a certain scene or shows acoustics, they can be nice if you don't want the music cranking but want the effect.

 

[no. 5]

That's interesting to me. I was under impression that surround for stereo is something like upconverting - like in videos: 480p to 1080i. But I am getting your point guys...

The quality of the "stereo surround" experience depends entirely on the the set up (i.e. angle, level and delay of the surrounds), and the codec in question; adding more speakers doesn't automatically make it better.

So this brings me back to the original question of this posting - are rear speakers really needed? For music - no, for movies - very little, 3.1 is just about near the perfection.

Honestly this is somewhat surprises me because pretty much all 5.1 systems are sold with rear speaker that are almost as good (if not identical) as the the front speakers, yet they have extremely limited use. Rear speakers that cost several hundreds dollars - what is the point?

As good as stereo can be, it has a major limitation when it comes to something like listener envelopment. It has this limitation because to fully recreate such a sensation, the arrival direction, level and delay of reflections need to be within a certain envelope relative to the direct sound.

As a general rule, the reflections in a small room cannot recreate this sense of envelopment like a multichannel set up can. The success does depend on what is coming out of the surround channels, if it's not "right", you are better off with stereo.

 

[jamie2112]

I don't need any stinkin surrounds... So I sold um....